tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post114774317622967366..comments2024-02-21T05:24:49.494-05:00Comments on Orthonomics: Guest Post: Heartwrenching Tuition Crisis Post 1Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50530983796476917922012-08-21T21:22:50.785-04:002012-08-21T21:22:50.785-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1509910371286290082012-08-12T21:36:06.850-04:002012-08-12T21:36:06.850-04:00Girls out to the streets will be dressed neat , wa...Girls out to the streets will be dressed neat , wants to become the focus of the street , the bag is an essential product of the girls out to the streets , so the bag with a stylish and sophisticated , sure to make you do more with less.In the summer, <a href="http://www.coach-outletonlinewebsite.com/" rel="nofollow">coach outlet</a> prepares you for every kind of coach handbag, coach Sunglasses Outlet. whether you are a beautiful youth, the remarkable grace or elegant, every woman has a unique meaning. <a href="http://www.coach-outletonlinewebsite.com/" rel="nofollow">coach outlet store</a> can also create a suitable product for you in the coach outlet online store. 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Environment These.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1148079634957036932006-05-19T19:00:00.000-04:002006-05-19T19:00:00.000-04:00George, Ask your Local Orthodox Rabbi. There is n...George, Ask your Local Orthodox Rabbi. There is no distinction in halacha by my understanding.<BR/><BR/>(My shul doesn't pass on the processing fee!) <BR/><BR/>Their must be an exception for organizations, or it is something that we should be getting a psak on.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1148076854871168552006-05-19T18:14:00.000-04:002006-05-19T18:14:00.000-04:00I went to a halacha shiur series on ribbis (chargi...I went to a halacha shiur series on ribbis (charging interest). <BR/><BR/>It is clear as day that this is a problem for individuals. (Maybe there is an exception for organizations?????).Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1148066709828467392006-05-19T15:25:00.000-04:002006-05-19T15:25:00.000-04:00The problem with putting tuitions on the credit ca...The problem with putting tuitions on the credit card (besides for being able to pay the tuitions off, but that is just a credit card problem!), is that the schools charge 2-3% service charge (something that I'm surprised hasn't been deemed assur).<BR/><BR/>And, of course, the rewards on the credit cards, are usually well below 1% if you do the calculation.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1148051503613257452006-05-19T11:11:00.000-04:002006-05-19T11:11:00.000-04:00My pleasure. I've enjoyed your posts on beyondbt....My pleasure. I've enjoyed your posts on beyondbt.com, and followed you over here.<BR/><BR/>Actually, in hindsight I kind of wish that I'd charged the tuitions because we might have finally been able to afford the flight(s) to EY! My system - if you could call it that - is to maintain a separate checking account for only tuition checks so I don't get all mixed up with the postdated checks. As soon as we get paid (we're both on the same biweekly civil service pay schedule), the money gets transferred to that checking account. Then the fun starts in trying to pay the rest of the bills, which usually involves being behind a month in certain utility bills, paying lesser amounts then I'd like on credit card balances, and just generally doing a juggling act. I'm not recommending this methodology, but it's the only way I seem to be able to get us by. Of course, when my daughter goes to EY next year, and we're making a Bar Mitzvah - well, don't ask, 'cause I haven't figured it out yet. <BR/>Folks, it's bitachon that gets us by.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147889756224021692006-05-17T14:15:00.000-04:002006-05-17T14:15:00.000-04:00Thank you anon for being open to questions. I wil...Thank you anon for being open to questions. I will start a second thread where questions can be asked and answered. <BR/><BR/>It will be easiest to keep things in order that way.<BR/><BR/>Charnie-I am so happy to see you back to add to the discussion. <BR/><BR/>After detailing your battles with consumer debt, you stated, <I>"But at least we're paying all our tuitions somehow."</I><BR/><BR/>I hear a lot of people say that they are "making it" or "somehow paying tuition," when in reality they are not able to pay tuition, they are just throwing basic living expenses on the credit card or dipping into the HELOC to "get by."<BR/><BR/>I think that we need a complete change of vocabulary, where statements like "somehow paying tuition" means there is enough left over after basic, modest living expenses to pay tuition.<BR/><BR/>I fear that until people say "I [in crisis, heading toward crisis, not meeting my obligations, in debt] and only because of my debt have I been able to pay tuition [or reduced tuition]" with we drive home the gravity of the situation."<BR/><BR/>(Thanks for letting me use you as an example). :) :)Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147882808663064692006-05-17T12:20:00.000-04:002006-05-17T12:20:00.000-04:00FYI, I'm open to all questions.FYI, I'm open to all questions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147882766360179682006-05-17T12:19:00.000-04:002006-05-17T12:19:00.000-04:00It's my story that's posted up there. I had some c...It's my story that's posted up there. I had some comments.<BR/><BR/>Firstly, if I had money one of the first things I'd do is give to yeshivos, not only the ones where I send my kids. I know people in chinuch and they are struggling mightily. I certainly understand where the schools are coming from.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, we did see a financial person before refinancing. He actually did a favor for us seeing us. He didn't charge and normally only deals with high end clients. After hearing our story he immediately recommended refinancing AND trying to reduce the credit card bills before refinancing. We called them but they were unsympathetic. It could be that it was a mistake for us to call them ourselves. The finance guy doing us a favor didn't offer to do it, so we tried ourselves. I wonder if Ari thinks that was a mistake. Maybe we should have gone to a credit consolidation expert/place to complete that part of the task. However, you also have to understand there was tremendous pressure to act fast. Each day interest was compounding, bills were coming due. We got our advice, tried our best and went with it. Still, I wonder if it would have been better to pay for debt consolidation service to call the credit cards for us. (I'm thinking now that it was.)<BR/><BR/>I will also add that I refinanced through a friend who did not make a profit off us.<BR/><BR/>There's tremendous goodness and chesed in the community. It definitely offsets some of the tremendous extra pressure. It's still a crisis, nonetheless. Both for individuals like myself and the community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147881438528910742006-05-17T11:57:00.000-04:002006-05-17T11:57:00.000-04:00I'm dreading the day when I have to start paying t...I'm dreading the day when I have to start paying tuition for future children (gotta get married first, but I've still given it thought). <BR/><BR/>My parents b"H always managed to pay full tuition for us, but 1) we lived pretty far out-of-town, so tuition was much less, and 2) there weren't that many of us to pay tuition for. One more kid, and it would have been a lot harder. And because my parents paid full tuition and don't believe in accruing debt one can't pay off, we didn't have fancy vacations or designer clothes or expensive electronics like a lot of kids had. But we had a Jewish education.<BR/><BR/>I don't know how I'll be able to do that for my kids. The truth is, it really is a community-wide crisis, because the continuity of our community is based on education. If we, as a community, can't afford to educate our children, we're in some serious trouble.Scrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15911315552965685448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147878720471513332006-05-17T11:12:00.000-04:002006-05-17T11:12:00.000-04:00Ari, I realize we're going a little out of subject...Ari, I realize we're going a little out of subject here, but for example, I have a son learning OOT. Everytime he flies in, we charge the tickets (on an airline creditcard). But when the bill comes, I rarely have all the $. So after having a 0 balance for quite sometime, I see the balance going back up again. And next year it will only get worse. It's where we end up when there just isn't enough cash to pay for necessities - like I charge my groceries. We do not put tuitions on chargecards - but that explains why there's not enough left over to pay the full amount (generally about $1,000 per month). And then a kid needs a new pair of sneakers, etc. But at least we're paying all our tuitions somehow.<BR/>By the way, Anonymous#1 (are you still here) - there's a lot more to running a yeshiva then just salaries. Try not paying the phone bill, the electric bill, the handyman who cleans up, etc. You'll be sitting in the dark, can't conduct business, and the garbage will be all over the place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147872365442408432006-05-17T09:26:00.000-04:002006-05-17T09:26:00.000-04:00Thank you Ari for more information. Like you, I k...Thank you Ari for more information. Like you, I know something about credit counseling and debt, but not enough. <BR/><BR/>I will be working on a post on the subject though that includes some good tips for cutting out debt that is building up, but is not currently "out of control."<BR/><BR/>The subject of credit and debt is such an important one.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147870837846555542006-05-17T09:00:00.000-04:002006-05-17T09:00:00.000-04:00I'm not talking about a financial planner to help ...I'm not talking about a financial planner to help you invest in stocks or bonds. (Some of those are good, and many are scum... Ask around your kehilla for recommendations). What I mean is "will I pay more money if I refinance" or how can I reduce the amount I have to pay on my credit card. Accountants, debt counselors, etc. will help you better on these matters. You know, help you crunch the numbers so you know what you're getting yourself into when you make a decision on debt. Also, people who specifically know the tricks of the trade in dealing with credit card debt. Compound interest has been called "the eighth wonder of the world" for a reason.<BR/><BR/>My point is that dealing with debt is just like dealing with any large amount of money, and that if you don't know what you're doing, the sharks will eat you alive.<BR/><BR/>It is also very helpful to educate yourself. Read about debt, if that's your problem. Bottom Line magazine has always had useful tips on finances, debt, and other useful stuff, if it can fit in the budget, ask for a few issues, and see if it will help you.<BR/><BR/>But first start with the Frontline episode I referred to above. It will help. I don't remember if they talked about any organizations that help people, but if you check out the frontline website, or if you email the producer of the show, they'll probably be able to help you no matter where you live in the USA.<BR/><BR/>Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.<BR/><BR/>Can I recommend someone specific at this time? I know that your local bankruptcy court has lists of approved debt counselors. Perhaps that is also a good place to start, even if you're not interested in bankruptcy. Call the clerk of the bankruptcy court and see if they know somebody who can help. If you ask nice, they may be able to help you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147862457044599582006-05-17T06:40:00.000-04:002006-05-17T06:40:00.000-04:00Guess I should have written a bit more.Re: Clevela...Guess I should have written a bit more.<BR/><BR/>Re: Cleveland & Milwaukee... seeing as I grew up in Cleveland and went to HS in Milwaukee: (and anyone can e-mail me if they have more Q's) [excuse labels, just an easy identifier]<BR/><BR/>Cleveland - Very large frum community split mostly into 2 basic areas (I'm excluding the small community surrounding Telshe) - Cleveland Heights, which is where I grew up. These days, it's primarily yeshivish. It is extremely cheap to live there: Houses such as my parents (Basement, 2 floors, attic, separate 2-car garage, medium front/backyards, full driveway, 4BR 2-1/2bath) run between $100-150K. On the other side (7-8 minute drive) is UniversityHts/Beachwood. Slightly larger than CH houses/yards in University Heights probably run around $200K, and Beachwood is a bit more expensive. Those communities are more mixed, leaning Modern. Cost-of-living is a fraction of New York; I imagine it's less than Baltimore, which is slightly over 50% of NYC's COL. I know there is some sort of voucher system in place in Cleveland, but I don't know the details.<BR/><BR/>Milwaukee's voucher system is far more extensive: The principal of one of the schools used to be a neighbor in Cleveland. I *believe* that 1/3 or more of the school's budget comes from vouchers. COL there is low, but the Jewish community is pretty small. There is a frum HS - WITS, where I went, as mentioned above. For the girls, there is TAM; many people send their kids away for HS (as they do in Cleveland). Personally, I think this is a great thing in general for many reasons. Milw has 2 basic communities: Glendale (more Modern) and West Side (R' Twersky-led). WITS is on the East Side, but there's relatively little there.<BR/><BR/>Heh - if you're looking into Cleveland, I know a very good financial planner. He cares more about his clients than making money (trust me!). My dad. :)Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147836306758696952006-05-16T23:25:00.000-04:002006-05-16T23:25:00.000-04:00Anon 10:38, for credit problems, you need a certif...Anon 10:38, for credit problems, you need a certified credit counselor, not a financial planner. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, like you said, not every professional is reputable. If anyone knows a great deal about credit counseling, I would welcome a guest post about reputable providers.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147833974044354122006-05-16T22:46:00.000-04:002006-05-16T22:46:00.000-04:00El Cheapo - If virtual learning (virtual charter s...El Cheapo - If virtual learning (virtual charter school) was free in my state, you bet I would send my kids and use group-schooling for the Judaic education. It is available in Ohio and California (among other states). Do the yidden take advantage of it? The answer is no.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147833484026499852006-05-16T22:38:00.000-04:002006-05-16T22:38:00.000-04:00Ari - Can you post some names of professionals tha...Ari - Can you post some names of professionals that are willing to help? Financial Planners only want to deal with people who have $$$ to invest. Many "professionals" advertising help are really scam artists. Thanks in advance!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147829536432543552006-05-16T21:32:00.000-04:002006-05-16T21:32:00.000-04:00Jdub-I am not advocating making public individual ...Jdub-I am not advocating making public individual salaries, just the ranges. E.g. a teacher with these degrees and x years of experience makes between $XX,XXX and $YY,YYY plus these benefits. <BR/><BR/>Ari-Thank you for the link. I will take a look this week and hopefully publish a report.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147828527453615632006-05-16T21:15:00.000-04:002006-05-16T21:15:00.000-04:00As a lawyer who has done a quite a few bankruptcie...As a lawyer who has done a quite a few bankruptcies, I do have some advice generally. (And I'm not advising bankruptcy...)<BR/><BR/>First of all, credit cards are dangerous. They're plastic crack. They will kill you financially, and the sharks at the credit card companies will not lose one bit of sleep by putting you in the situation of our esteemed poster.<BR/><BR/>I urge each and every one of you to put go to the below link. It is a show called "The Secret History of the Credit Card."<BR/><BR/>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/view/<BR/><BR/>The whole thing is online and it is free. I implore sephardilady to post it prominently on this site so that our bretheren will know the dangers of the credit card. Their contracts are unfair and one sided, and even the Harvard law professor does not understand all of the provisions. It's chilling. You need to watch it and you need to watch it now if you have any credit card debt.<BR/><BR/>Before you ever refinance credit card debt, you NEED NEED NEED to consult a professional, even if it costs a few bucks. They may be able to help reduce some of the late payments, interest, etc. This way, if you do refinance (and it may not be in your best interests to do so, depending on your state) you will have to add as little to your mortgage as possible.<BR/><BR/>Please pay for financial advice from experienced professionals. I don't give this type of advice professionally, as my main area is criminal law, so I have no financial interest in telling you this. It's just that our poster may (and I don't know his situation intimately so I cannot be sure) have been able to "take the edge off" his situation with better advice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147816111224748862006-05-16T17:48:00.000-04:002006-05-16T17:48:00.000-04:00Terrible situation...one problem is that too many ...Terrible situation...one problem is that too many people cry wolf, ask for assitance they don't need, even falsifying documents to do so. The result of such is that many legitimate requests are denied..and for no reason other than the school does not know who to believe!DAGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09475799835170867139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147815169329687722006-05-16T17:32:00.000-04:002006-05-16T17:32:00.000-04:00I wholeheartedly agree with you on all of those is...I wholeheartedly agree with you on all of those issues. I am somewhat uneasy making individual teacher salaries public (Mrs. So and SO makes what???) but I could see salary ranges based on experience etc. public.<BR/><BR/>I also agree with you that there is a need for a communal tax. My kids' school is starting a fund-raising project whereby grandparents are approached to sponsor the day's learning in honor of their grandkids, for a yahrtzeit, or whatever. Great idea. Hope it works. But it would be much easier to simply tell each member of every Ortho synagogue: Pony up. In addition to your shul dues, to be a member in good standing of the Orthodox community, it will cost you $100. Or $200. Whatever. (I don't believe in requiring disclosure of tax returns, I think that's excessive.) Think about it. MY shul has 300 families. That's $30,000 or $60,000 from my shul alone, and there are 3 other shuls in my neighborhood, and at least 6 other shuls in the greater Metro area.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147809350891650102006-05-16T15:55:00.000-04:002006-05-16T15:55:00.000-04:00Thanks for chimining in JDub. I just got back fro...Thanks for chimining in JDub. I just got back from a busy day and think it important to clarify why I am publishing these stories:<BR/><BR/>It is NOT to villify our schools.<BR/><BR/>I do think that our schools are inherently inefficient since each school is for itself. I do think that our schools should be open about finances and payscales. <BR/><BR/>However, I do not believe that our schools are inherently dishonest or are scamming us. <BR/><BR/>Through these stories I hope to drive the point home that our schools need their own "tax base" if we want to continue to provide a Jewish education to already frum children, as even parents who are earning a good income (as the parent in this story is), cannot bare the burden entirely by themselves.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147807843274221062006-05-16T15:30:00.000-04:002006-05-16T15:30:00.000-04:00most schools are not scamming. It is darn expensi...most schools are not scamming. It is darn expensive to run schools.<BR/><BR/>Think about it. Where I live, I pay around $10,000 in property taxes, some large percentage of which goes to fund the public school system. Doesn't sound like much compared to the $25k I pay for two kids in elementary school at the local Ortho day school and one in nursery.<BR/><BR/>But the public schools also draw from the non-residential tax base, along with a tax on all the houses, regardless of whether one sends their kids to school. So the public schools take in a lot.<BR/><BR/>Yeshivas and day schools only take in their tuition and whatever fund-raising they bring in. Our school is in the red in terms of operating costs based on tuition alone. Fund-raising, thank God, closes the gap.<BR/><BR/>I feel for this guy, I truly do. And no school should put this much stress on a person or their marriage. But schools aren't generally scamming. Few teachers or administrators get rich going into chinuch. I know that's not the point of SephardiLady's guest poster, but some of the comments are unfair to the schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1147801766099122132006-05-16T13:49:00.000-04:002006-05-16T13:49:00.000-04:00Milwaukee does have at least one high school - WIT...Milwaukee does have at least one high school - WITS (part of the Chofetz Chaim system). Don't know about girls or coed schools.<BR/><BR/>Passaic was an "up and coming" frum community a few years ago. Now that it's arrived, prices have gone up, but it may still be less then certain other neighborhoods. Back on the BeyondBT discussion, someone mentioned alternatives, like buying a house outside of the eruv to save money. Please don't give up!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com