tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post115516189739387692..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1159555275383925362006-09-29T14:41:00.000-04:002006-09-29T14:41:00.000-04:00jdrens-I agree with you completely. I have said t...jdrens-I agree with you completely. I have said this in other areas of my blog that we need to take advantage of economies of scales and that our schools are far too independent. Unfortunately, the chances of getting two schools to buy toilet paper together, e.g., is slim to none. <BR/><BR/>But, parents should be pushing for such to happen. <BR/><BR/>Also, Catholic Schools can and DO close/combine schools when their population shrinks and a school is just too small. We have become too caught up in ideals and are missing a lot of much needed efficiency. <BR/><BR/>Hope to see you back and contributing. :) Good Shabbos.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1156258279892623912006-08-22T10:51:00.000-04:002006-08-22T10:51:00.000-04:00Disabled and disowned-Your situation is a genuine ...Disabled and disowned-Your situation is a genuine tragedy which we all should prepare for Chas Ve Shalom with insurance, etc. I am appalled that your community basically treats you like a leper and that no prominent RY, rav,etc hasn't been contacted on your behalf. <BR/><BR/>Many of us talk about savings for weddings, college or a family member in a kollel. However, I suspect that this element in many cases means ignoring credit cards that glow at night because of the bills, etc. <BR/><BR/>Here is a more practical observation-We were involved in the groundwork for a special needs program.All of the prior programs had collapsed for lack of support from the mainstream schools. We knew that none of these schools would do anything except give us space and shep nachas at our program while we raised the money, interviewed staff, etc,It required a lot of networking with local rabbonim , consciousness raising to put the issue on the communal agenda, creating an organizational structure and incessant fundraising ranging from cake for Shavuous to car washes to a Melevah Malkeh with a geat speaker to flowers and the typical parlor meetings. It took a lot of work but we all knew that this was the only way that we could get the program up and running. <BR/><BR/>I think that every school would welcome more lay input and volunteers into its fund raising efforts. Too often, we see a dinner tacked onto tuition with no expectation of any other help except a possibly mega donation down the road. Dinners are unfortunately a necessary evil of all frum communal organizations, but we need to welcome people who can contribute fund raising and other ideas into our communal boards so that we can avoid the ossification of the communal arteries that is too often the case in our mosdos. IMO, too many of our mosdos suffer from the inability to think outside the proverbial envelope.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155935090019664372006-08-18T17:04:00.000-04:002006-08-18T17:04:00.000-04:00Dr. Klafter,Don't appologize for being busy! I loo...Dr. Klafter,<BR/><BR/>Don't appologize for being busy! I look forward to your continuing involvement in this conversation, Motzai Shabbos, or whenever.<BR/><BR/>I am not sure where you got the impression that my position was to allow families to pay nothing. Every last family in the schools in which I worked, for all the years, was required to pay something. Not a single student recieved a completely free ride.<BR/><BR/>Even people who had challah and grape juice delivered to their door erev shabbos were required to come up with something.<BR/><BR/>We reaped all the advantage of points 3,4,5 and 7 above.<BR/><BR/>As I mentioned in passing in my too-lengthy post, I suppose that I am in favor of a minimum tuition, as long as it is scrutinized and customized specifically to each family.<BR/><BR/>However, a minimum tuition the way you describe it just seems like semantics to me. I think it doesn't make business sense to employ a hard minimum. And if it ISN'T a hard minimum, than isn't it just semantics?<BR/><BR/>Points 1 and 6 above are arguments for my more time consuming, more detailed, but ultimately more profitable and just tuition assistance processes. One-size-fits-all doesn't accomodate all children better than examining each situation seperately. Likewise if parents are trying to get away with something.<BR/><BR/>I can hear point 2, but then this really IS about semantics and marketing - setting expectations - and not really about a hard minimum tuition. I think the same or more revenue could be put into IOUs, etc. simply by looking at the full tuition as obligitory, and working backward to the maximum number the family would except in an IOU. An IOU can always be renegotiated, extended, or forgiven later, but at least it is signed for and on the books today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155933270584983792006-08-18T16:34:00.000-04:002006-08-18T16:34:00.000-04:00Anonymous 3:57 -- I am a tuition paying member of ...Anonymous 3:57 -- I am a tuition paying member of the community and I support minimum tuitions. In addition, I find your vitriolic outburst to be unhelpful to the discussion at hand. We are not talking about imaginary fourth grade orphans. We're talking about families where the grandparents buy the kids expensive houses, cars and vacations, but show $18K on their tax returns so feel entitled to zero tuition for their children. We're talking about lifelong learners with 8 or more children in local yeshivot, who refuse to become school rebbeim in exchange for tuition. We're talking about people with very high incomes who try to blackmail the school, saying, I'm going to pay zero, like it or not, or my child will go to public school. In econnomics, these families are known as freeriders. Minimum tuition plus IOU's and/or work obligations addresses much of the freerider problem. You can argue emotionally all you want, but you can't argue away the economics of the situation. Adverse selection, free riders, cost disease of the service sector, etc. are all Econ 101 concepts. I guess you failed the class.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155931858454849852006-08-18T16:10:00.000-04:002006-08-18T16:10:00.000-04:00Anonymous 3:57: Please keep the rhetoric to a min...Anonymous 3:57: Please keep the rhetoric to a minimum. <BR/><BR/>Dr. Klafter-I find your points quite poignant, especially #7. I was planning a follow-up post with a similiar point.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155931408376310322006-08-18T16:03:00.000-04:002006-08-18T16:03:00.000-04:00HHH-You make an excellent point (and one we can re...HHH-You make an excellent point (and one we can relate to). Unfortunately, even with rental prices in some areas, I have to wonder if there is even money for renting and tuition.<BR/><BR/>Another point that should be make is that their are tuition paying people who are only financing yeshiva education through debt (home equity lines of credit, credit cards, etc). If the housing market cools and they have already borrowed to their equity limit, they will have to also ask for scholarships. <BR/><BR/>I would not advocate debt financing a K-12 education, but plenty of people have done it there is a point where families will have maxed out and will also need assistance, despite their past record.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155931050009063552006-08-18T15:57:00.001-04:002006-08-18T15:57:00.001-04:00"His practice might not serve as a full precedent ..."His practice might not serve as a full precedent for extrapolation to the kollel system nowadays, but he can hardly be cited as someone who ruled against the kollel system."<BR/><BR/>This has absolutely nothing to do with my point whatsoever. I suppose it easier to win an argument of your own making.<BR/><BR/>"Ok. Transfer $150,000 to our school's bank account, and i will lower the minimum tuition for indigent families to $10 per month."<BR/><BR/>What makes you think I would fund or solicit funds for an organization with such a self defeating policy? I certainly hope other national organizations that support day schools with grants, gifts and the like have the same kind of reaction. It may make your tireless fund raising efforts that much more difficult. <BR/><BR/>"I have not changed my opinion at all. You didn't read my article carefully. I clearly stated that in cases of true hardship, work for the school, IOU's and other arrangements can be made."<BR/><BR/>This is all the difference in the world. The problem is you are broadcasting a dangerous message. How do you know who has been kept out? Are you certain that there are families who may not have bothered approaching an institution that has the emblem of 'miminum tuition' branded to its front door. I would suggest my extensive experience, likely many years more than yours suggests otherwise. You can only speak of those who approach you with a deal. <BR/><BR/>I would further add, that our discrepency is more of a philosophical one. You don't truly believe in absolute minimum tuitions if you provide so many different outs. The problem is the message you are sending, and this matters the most. It is perfectly reasonable and acceptable to have tought scholarship screening where appropriate. But your message of doom will deter and repel families without your knowledge. The message should primarily be all Jewish kids get an education. I can easily come up with a list of a 100 peers and friends who would not be orthodox today had such an evil administrative tenet been imposed in their respective day schools. Your starting point is entirely corrupt.<BR/><BR/>"The point we are discussing is establishing a bottom line minimal obligation. "<BR/><BR/>Thanks for refocusing me, I don't know what I would do without it. I may not be a physician, but I am capable of abstract thought Doctor Klafter MD. <BR/><BR/>"There are many schools that have NONE. Our school for many years had none. It got more and more in the red. Many people took advantage of it."<BR/><BR/>There are also many more schools that have none and are quite successful, especially in outreach a value far more important than yours. There are also many many ways to deal with parents who take advantage. Your policy punishes the indigant for the crimes of the reach. Double shame on you.<BR/><BR/>"I think that it is immoral AND poor business practice for the school to require NOTHING WHATSOEVER of any family. "<BR/><BR/>I think your policy of destruction is immoral. What would you do for a homeless child whos parents were killed in a car crash taken in by the community with absolutely no resources at all. Your policy would kick him to the curb. Or perhaps you would require this poor 4th grader to paint the halls of your precious school after hours? Your policy is morally corrupt, and I ashamed that there are day schools that embrace such a nasty idea. I can only hope your community will express as much dismay and repopulate the board with people who understand Torah values a little bit better.<BR/><BR/>"another benefit of minimum tuition obligations are that wealthy members of the community are less resentful of their contributions because they see that everyone is attempting to contribute in some way."<BR/><BR/>Well thank goodness for that, pacify the wealthy and prevent the indigant from obtaining a Jewish education. What would our day school system do without you?<BR/><BR/>"When asking for donations this past year, numerous donors were impressed that all parents are required to contribute"<BR/><BR/>I will bet, in fact I KNOW there are many others who find your policy disgraceful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155931047673436942006-08-18T15:57:00.000-04:002006-08-18T15:57:00.000-04:00FRMREXECDIR:Sorry, I've been busy since my last po...FRMREXECDIR:<BR/><BR/>Sorry, I've been busy since my last post. I don't disagree with much that you've writte and we do much of what you are talking about.<BR/><BR/>I will try to post at length motzei shabbos.<BR/><BR/>The only disagreement is that you think minimum tuition makes no business sense. I disagre strongly for these reasons:<BR/>1) It is not a supply/demand classic market. We are stuck with ALL the kids in the community unless we turn them away, and they are stuck with us because we are the only frum school and a Torah education for their children is a must.<BR/>2) We will get more money, save money, or get money through IOU's in the future by setting a minimum obligation. These are real dollars, and they add up.<BR/>3) Resentment by the middle and upper class families is ameliorated when they realize that EVERYONE is paying or contributing in some way.<BR/>4) Donors are impressed that EVERYONE is contributing in some way and feel better about their donations.<BR/>5) It is unethical to allow people to pay nothing when they are able to contribute in some way.<BR/>6) Too many families distort or outright lie about reporting their income, and a minimum tuition obligation which is non-negotiable allows us to avoid this nonsense with such families. When they are faced with paynig 2400 bucks per child or coming in and doing work, the lying families come up with the money.<BR/>7) Morale improves when low income parents make contributions to the school. They are proud of what they do and their contributions. They feel part of things, and less disenfranchised.<BR/><BR/>I think it has been very positive all around to do this. It is not "suicidal" and "destructive" as inappropriately charaterized above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155929091654592692006-08-18T15:24:00.000-04:002006-08-18T15:24:00.000-04:00There is one factor that Im not sure has been spec...There is one factor that Im not sure has been specifically addressed, and I think its a clear trend all over. Young couples are being faced with a choice. Do I want to own a home, or do I want to pay tuition. There is no money for both. The percentage of income that is being used to pay for a home is scary in many cases. But can you blame people for wanting to have their own home. Unless home prices really collapse, this is a trend that is getting far worse.<BR/><BR/>HHHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155914896840691452006-08-18T11:28:00.000-04:002006-08-18T11:28:00.000-04:00HHH-It really is too bad that we even have to have...HHH-It really is too bad that we even have to have these discussions and that we are just starting to think forward. I hope you are wrong that it will get worse before better. <BR/><BR/>But, the indicators are there in my mine that confirm your statement. <BR/><BR/>Hope you will join in conversations in the future and also, feel free to take a look at the Archives.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155904118234661832006-08-18T08:28:00.000-04:002006-08-18T08:28:00.000-04:00The short of the long of it is that donations must...The short of the long of it is that donations must be <B>completely voluntary</B> to be tax deductible. If a school requires payment for a scholarship fund as part of the tuition package, it is not deductible. If a school requires payment for a dinner as part of the tuition package, it is not deductible. <BR/><BR/>But, as we know, every school does it and most taxpayers can and will take these deductions. <BR/><BR/>I think I will make a short post on this topic so that people are informed on the law. It probably is safe to take these deductions if they are limited. But, I know those who are in tax law and accounting refrain. <BR/><BR/>(Note: Chinese Auctions, Raffles, Bingo, etc are NEVER deductible, despite the fact you may get a receipt back. The IRS defines the value of what you receive as the amount you paid and considers these types of fundraisers "gambling."}Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155873471792860312006-08-17T23:57:00.000-04:002006-08-17T23:57:00.000-04:00Thank you sephardilady, I was aware that AMT could...Thank you sephardilady, I was aware that AMT could minimize the savings. I posted once earlier as well, as a member of a board and scholarship cmte. I agree that it would be difficult to get people to donate the extra $2,000 in this case. That is probably where a community endowment fund should come in to play. If the whole community would contribute to a fund, then the tuitions could easily be lowered, and there would likely be alot of tax dollars saved. <BR/>It is quite clear that there are many talented investors in our communities, who have great expertise in real estate, stocks, and business. If only we could have invested in education years ago, we wouldnt be having this discussion about minimum tuition. I personally have invested succesfully on behalf of a Yeshiva at my own risk, and it has been very succesful. There is no doubt that alot more can be done and I hope you can somehow discuss this topic in the future.<BR/><BR/>Thank You for this forum to discuss this topic, unfortunately I think it will get worse, before it gets better.<BR/><BR/>HHHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155869031306582632006-08-17T22:43:00.000-04:002006-08-17T22:43:00.000-04:00anon 9:36 -- It's not clear that your proposed sys...anon 9:36 -- It's not clear that your proposed system is actually legal. In order to legitimately claim the deduction, you have to prove that your payments exceeded the cost to educate your child. So there has to be complete transparency of costs, including disclosure of the salaries of the administration and teachers, which are never, ever disclosed at day schools. In addition, most schools to get Federation and other non-tuition revenues, so the amount you donate should be offset by donations your child received from these groups. It's complicated.<BR/><BR/>My understanding is that even though everyone who itemizes deducts these 'dinner' and 'scholarship' contributions, whenever the IRS has been asked to rule they have been disallowed. <BR/><BR/>That being said, my school has this scheme.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155866208326437832006-08-17T21:56:00.000-04:002006-08-17T21:56:00.000-04:00I'll chime in as the accountant on the above comme...I'll chime in as the accountant on the above comment by (a new?) anonymous:<BR/><BR/>The tax savings in the most simple terms (assuming one can itemize, in general only homeowners itemize) is one's marginal rate multiplied by the donation. So, if one's marginal rate is 25%, there would be a tax savings of $500 for every $2000 donation. Unfortunately, tax is never so simple, and a lot of upper-middle income people are running into the AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax) and their deductions get phased out and they do not benefit the itemized deductions to the same degree.<BR/><BR/>And now from a different business and marketing perspective: <BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, it is near impossible to lower donations and hope that parents will donate the difference. In the Jewish Action Tuition Issue there was an interesting article on the SAMIS Foundation in Seattle that has underwritten much of the cost of high school education. Originally it was believed that tuition would be lowered and parents would make tax-deductible donations from their tzedakah funds to the school and tuition could remain extremely low for many years to come. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunatly, as the article states, things didn't work out exactly as planned and tuition has been raised (although it is still a bargain). <BR/><BR/>I guess the bottom line is that communal support is a must if schools plan to survive, much less thrive. Yet, nobody has invented the marketing campaign that puts Jewish Education as the foremost destination for contributions. Somehow the community will need to figure out how to make K-12 education the "sexy" cause to donate to. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for joining in (new?) anonymous.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155864991014650922006-08-17T21:36:00.000-04:002006-08-17T21:36:00.000-04:00I just wanted to point out one way which the Yeshi...I just wanted to point out one way which the Yeshiva parents can save tens of thousands of dollars.<BR/><BR/>There is no doubt that the tuitions are inflated because of the many parents that understandably cant pay full tuition. I believe its clear that Yeshiva tuition is not tax deductible. If the community could raise the funds so that students who cant afford the tuition, would be subsidized to perhaps $5,000 for tuition, the cost of tuition could go down.<BR/><BR/>The parent who paid $10,000 for their child, if the tuition was lowered to $8,000, they could donate the additional $2,000 as a deductible donation. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps an accountant could estimate the tax savings, but I would think there would be significant savings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155864147099123452006-08-17T21:22:00.000-04:002006-08-17T21:22:00.000-04:00Please mail me the article Ariella. Sounds like s...Please mail me the article Ariella. Sounds like something worth posting on (especially after checking out your post!).Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155861766695352872006-08-17T20:42:00.000-04:002006-08-17T20:42:00.000-04:00whoops, mistyped my name -Ariellawhoops, mistyped my name -AriellaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155861719473310632006-08-17T20:41:00.000-04:002006-08-17T20:41:00.000-04:00Mispacha Magazine is running a 2 part series on tu...Mispacha Magazine is running a 2 part series on tuition. I posted about its representation of figures on my blog. As they would charge you for the article alone, Sephardi Lady, I can mail you the 2 parts together after next week if you are interested.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155856208936937042006-08-17T19:10:00.000-04:002006-08-17T19:10:00.000-04:00Here are some of my preliminary thoughts. A little...Here are some of my preliminary thoughts. A little bit of background on me: current tuition-paying mother with an MBA in finance and economics. <BR/>1. I believe the burden of providing a child with a Jewish education is the burden of the parents AND the community, not just the community. Thus, every school should set a minimum tuition per student, not per family. If every school would do this, parents would not be able to shop their kids between different schools as the kids to 'top off the class'. In my opinion that is not fair to the families who are the backbone of the school, regardless of household income. When a family cannot pay do to adverse circumstances, they should sign an IOU or agree to work off the tuition by teaching or otherwise working to offset the total financial burden on the school. If a person learning full-time in kollel refuses to learn with baalei baatim or teach chosson classes to meet his obligation, I question why my dollars should be educate his children. <BR/>2. Get rid of the dinners. Sell ads in a journal and honor donors at an event where coffee, tea and rugelach are served. Net savings is $40K per year, per school. Not chump change.<BR/>3. Educate yourself how tuitions were paid in Europe and how they are currently paid in Satmar, a school system which I have been told enrolls 10% of the yeshiva students in NY. Tuition is paid monthly directly to the rebbe. If you don't pay, he doesn't get paid, and he doesn't teach your kid that month. That's how it worked in Europe, too. <BR/>4. Accept the input of people with a background in finance and economics. My overtures to help my kids' school were rebuffed with the response "volunteer with the PTA to prove yourself". Bake sales ain't gonna solve the day school tuition crisis, people -- like SephardiLady, I know for a fact that we have to get more non-Jewish dollars into our community or the school will simply cease to function. How do we do that? We encourage everyone who is not disabled to get a job. Learning in kollel for 25+ years and expecting the community to educate your children is not fair to the rest of us. We did not hire you to have children for us. We want to have our own children, too.<BR/>5. Revamp the shidduch scene. We currently have 1000's of young guys at Lakewood, etc., who have been told they can't get married if they go to college or work for a living. Come on, already. In my opinion the Agudah and other ultra-Orthodox leaders have the obligation to speak out against this just as they have spoken out again other wastes of the community's money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155850093894213342006-08-17T17:28:00.000-04:002006-08-17T17:28:00.000-04:00I wish that Dr. Klafter would not feel the need to...I wish that Dr. Klafter would not feel the need to respond to and refute everything that Anonymous says, and instead return to the issue at hand by responding to my lengthy post above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155848052729829012006-08-17T16:54:00.000-04:002006-08-17T16:54:00.000-04:00In any case, I agree with you that Kollels are not...<I>In any case, I agree with you that Kollels are not the problem for schools. In our case it is certainly not the problem, as our kollel pays significant tuition for the children of its staff.</I><BR/><BR/>I think we need to remember that there are two different types of kollelim: 1. Community Kollels which are essentially adult education programs and more and 2. Kollelim of married learners (a la "Lakewood" and others).Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155844473277835262006-08-17T15:54:00.000-04:002006-08-17T15:54:00.000-04:00Anonymous writes: Where a day school education is...Anonymous writes: <I>Where a day school education is possible for 2k or less. There are lots of em out there believe it or not. </I><BR/><BR/>There are few to no schools in the US, that offer tuition of these amounts. Those that do are either Chassidish schools that operate in a completely different way. . . or schools with an underwriter (and, I don't think tuition is ever THAT low nor is the low tuition unending). <BR/><BR/>Former Executive Director-Thank you for weighing in. I hope you will become a regular poster since you have a nice ability to discuss the issues, despite the fact that inevitably there will be disagreements. <BR/><BR/>Since I found your post to offer new information, I'd like your permission to post it as its own post. <BR/><BR/>Regarding education the young people, the reason I find this necessary should be obvious. Unfortunately, from what I can see, during the high school years, and evenmoreso during the post high school Beis Medrash/Seminary years, our young people are being given a message that money grows on trees and that they can (and should) hold off their lives and that all will be OK. <BR/><BR/>In a previous post I posed the question of when is the appropriate time to discuss the "Financial Realities of Frum Life" here: (http://orthonomics.blogspot.com/2006/05/introducing-your-children-to-financial.html). <BR/><BR/>I firmly believe that if tuition were known, or it was known that a certain amount was expected, that people would make different decisions. Maybe you are correct that this should be the community's reponsibility to stress, rather than a school's responsibility. But, then again, oftentimes the schools pass on a different message and a unified one would be best.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Dr. Klafter-I really, really appreciate your continuing participation and call upon anonymous to stop flinging accusations and start discussing. <BR/><BR/>I think the IOU policy run through your school is quite generous and makes a lot of sense, especially when you are giving assistance to families that hopefully will be earning in the future. A while back, I wrote about my doubts to an interest free loan program that is apparantely being rolled out as we speak here:<BR/><BR/>http://orthonomics.blogspot.com/2006/03/interest-free-loans-for-jewish.html. <BR/><BR/>Your interest free loan program seems quite different and interesting (perhaps you would hesitate to lend $80K to a family). I'd like to here more about how you set the IOU amount, what factors you look at, and more and would welcome a guest post.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Klafter, a link to the Life Insurance idea is here and it links to the website I found the idea on: http://orthonomics.blogspot.com/2006/02/united-yeshiva-and-hebrew-day-school.html<BR/><BR/>Like the 5% plan, the payoff isn't for a long time. But, I think it has merits for the long term and should be explored.<BR/><BR/><B>Sorry for disjointed thoughts. I'm thrilled there is so much discussion going on. But, it makes it hard to put together a quick coherent post. </B>Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155843911135955022006-08-17T15:45:00.000-04:002006-08-17T15:45:00.000-04:00"I fully understand this concept and am aware of t..."I fully understand this concept and am aware of the Rambam saying parnasa koidma ltorah."<BR/><BR/>The Rambam never said any such thing. He poskinned that it is forbidden to be paid money in order to teach Torah. He never said it is forbidden for great Torah scholars to be supported by their community in their STUDY of Torah. He himself, as a Torah scholar, was completely supported in his Torah learning by his wealthy brother until a catastrophic sea accident which destroyed his brother's fortune and (if I remember correctly) his brother's life. He did not forbid receiving money for Torah study. His practice might not serve as a full precedent for extrapolation to the kollel system nowadays, but he can hardly be cited as someone who ruled against the kollel system. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps you are referring to this: In hilkhos Talmud Torah, he quoted the ma'amar chazal which states that "Any Torah study which is not accompanied by derekh eretz (commonly translated as work, or a trade) will come to nought." There are other understandings of the chazal however, and there are exceptions.<BR/><BR/>In any case, I agree with you that Kollels are not the problem for schools. In our case it is certainly not the problem, as our kollel pays significant tuition for the children of its staff.<BR/><BR/>"I personally allocated more money last year to this cause than I care to divulge.... I do it mainly to prevent wreckless and wholely uninformed policy from ravaging our future."<BR/><BR/>Ok. Transfer $150,000 to our school's bank account, and i will lower the minimum tuition for indigent families to $10 per month.<BR/><BR/>"...you don't really believe the extreme nonsense you published in the Ou magazine either. I didn't think so."<BR/><BR/>I have not changed my opinion at all. You didn't read my article carefully. I clearly stated that in cases of true hardship, work for the school, IOU's and other arrangements can be made. I am saying, however, that many families have NOT been contributing their fair share based on their means, and that this is one among many places that schools will now need to turn to improve their financial soundness. <BR/><BR/>The point we are discussing is establishing a bottom line minimal obligation. There are many schools that have NONE. Our school for many years had none. It got more and more in the red. Many people took advantage of it. I think that it is immoral AND poor business practice for the school to require NOTHING WHATSOEVER of any family. This is the issue of dicussion. Not creative fundraising, keeping costs down, etc. <BR/><BR/>Tuition is not THE place to make up a school's deficit. It is one of several places, however.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155842213248220722006-08-17T15:16:00.000-04:002006-08-17T15:16:00.000-04:00The point of minimum tuition is to declare a minim...The point of minimum tuition is to declare a minimal responsibility which even an indigent family is obligated to fulfill in some way. If they can pay it in cash tuition, fine. If they cannot, it cannot be simply written off further. As I said in my article in Jewish Action, and again above, they can fundraise, provide work for the school which saves the school real money, or can sign an IOU. (Anonymous thinks I have backtracked, but he must not have read any of what I wrote very carefully.)<BR/><BR/>Your statment that "from a business point of view mininum tuition makes no sense" is exactly wrong in my opinion. When I went to yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael (Darchei Noam) I had absolutely no money and no income. I was required to sign an IOU for tuition, and began paying it off. I have now paid it off and I am now a modest donor to this institution as well.<BR/><BR/>I wish, very much, that the families who sent their children to our day school 20 years ago and paid 0 dollars tuition were paying us IOU's now. But they did not sign IOU's. There were people doing their residency trainings or in law school who had very little or no money for tuition 20 years ago to pay for their childrens' tuitions. At present, they are successful professionals in another city. I certainly wish that they were paying us money now.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous calls this attitude "destructive" and "elitist". I am amazed by this. Think about it: We are providing an education for your children which is discounted, because of your financial situation by 70% of the actual cost per child of education. If you truly don't have 30% now, you can pay what you are able, and sign an IOU for the rest, to be paid intrest free in the future when you no longer are paying any tuitions. This is an unbelievable generous arrangement. It is the height of entitlement and kafui tov to call this "elitist".<BR/><BR/>This is a discussion about TUITION. It is not a discussion about fundraising and cutting costs. I could write lenghty articles about keeping costs down, fudraising, lobbying the Federation to increase its allocation (which in our case is already fairly generous), 5% bequeathment commitments, instituting a kehilla wide ma'aser prioritization tax, etc. etc. ("Life Insurance" is a new one for me, and strikes me as sort of bizarre and convoluted, but I'd like to hear more about it.) But, that's not what Jewish Action was interested in having me do. <BR/><BR/>There seems to be an assumption above that since we are spending effort on collecting tuition, we must be neglecting fundraising or cost effectivenes. This is simply untrue. In fact, I think that all of these claims are distractions for the point of our discussion.<BR/><BR/>The question here is as follows: Should our schools establish a bare minimum obligation, below which no DISCOUNT is available. Our answer was YES, and we set teh amount at $2,400, which is roughly 30% of the cost of education per child. There are a variety of ways this obligation can be fulfilled. The simplest is with cash. But there are many others.<BR/><BR/>Another benefit of minimum tuition obligations are that wealthy members of the community are less resentful of their contributions because they see that everyone is attempting to contribute in some way. When asking for donations this past year, numerous donors were impressed that all parents are required to contributeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1155836809109497152006-08-17T13:46:00.000-04:002006-08-17T13:46:00.000-04:00Wow. Every side has raised some interesting points...Wow. Every side has raised some interesting points. I have read it all, and I'm going to print and read it all again before making any of my own.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com