tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post1433613465650240833..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: What To Do When The Money Doesn't Exist?Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger131125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-76111346586407910622018-07-12T11:35:37.131-04:002018-07-12T11:35:37.131-04:00Quantum Binary Signals
Get professional trading s...<b><a href="http://signals.syntaxlinks.com/r/QuantumBinarySignals" rel="nofollow">Quantum Binary Signals</a></b><br /><br />Get professional trading signals sent to your cell phone daily.<br /><br />Follow our signals today & <b>earn up to 270% per day</b>.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-30073028748082955912011-12-15T23:20:27.969-05:002011-12-15T23:20:27.969-05:00@ Shoshana Z, 12/12 11:17
#1: exactly! I'm a...@ Shoshana Z, 12/12 11:17<br /><br />#1: exactly! I'm among those who hold that sheshit yamim ta'avodu is a positive commandment. There are of course challenges, but I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I intentionally set out to rely on communal charity to survive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-24621536558059386742011-12-13T15:35:31.042-05:002011-12-13T15:35:31.042-05:00It isn't only the schools though. How can an ...It isn't only the schools though. How can an entire segment of the population demand an upper-middle-class lifestyle (property ownership in the most expensive areas of the country, private schools, camps, expensive simchas at every milestone of life) and large families with no one working or pursuing advanced study? the system is bound to collapse.AztecQueen2000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-58267441063252035672011-12-13T15:01:40.368-05:002011-12-13T15:01:40.368-05:00Anon 12:46,
Oh, a subgroup can absolutely enter a...Anon 12:46,<br /><br />Oh, a subgroup can absolutely enter a death spiral. Since the government safety net provides increasing benefits to those willing to hang out in the underclass, situations like Kiryas Joel are very possible.<br /><br />The bigger threat there is NOT a cut back in benefits, but rather an aggressive IRS looking into "off the books" freelance/jobs, lifestyle auditing, etc.<br /><br />Also, many of thing Jewish fringe groups require outside resources to sustain themselves. As the unaffiliated Jewish population declines, and the affiliated portion becomes increasingly distant from Orthodoxy, the subsidies for those groups will decline. They won't necessarily fix the problems, it'll be like multi-generational poverty in inner cities, some people will work hard and get out, while others will stay mired in bad conditions.<br /><br />We've seen how this plays out, it isn't pretty.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37764808901680344062011-12-13T14:00:22.857-05:002011-12-13T14:00:22.857-05:00@Miami Al-
Right, having pre-school aged childre...@Miami Al- <br /><br />Right, having pre-school aged children at home is not "homeschooling," it's "parenting.<br /><br />Exactly...Shoshana Z.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-31329067442983902502011-12-13T12:46:24.816-05:002011-12-13T12:46:24.816-05:00Tessya: I'm not sure that the problem is so s...Tessya: I'm not sure that the problem is so self-limiting. It depends on how far to the right the community goes. Look at Kiryas Joel. It has the highest poverty rates in the country, but there is no move to have fewer kids, increase secular education or get people into the workforce. Now what they will do when public benefits (Section 8, WIC, foodstamps, Medicaid, etc.) starts getting strings attached (i.e. all able bodied recipients must work on public works programs) or are cut back in a big way, remains to be seen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-12224920153568055732011-12-13T12:32:46.481-05:002011-12-13T12:32:46.481-05:00Those who receive a yeshiva education are less abl...Those who receive a yeshiva education are less able and less willing to do what is necessary to pay for their own children's yeshiva education. It's ironic and tragic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-52303406590071900912011-12-13T12:18:26.242-05:002011-12-13T12:18:26.242-05:00Tesyaa,
From what's I've seen, kid one ap...Tesyaa,<br /><br />From what's I've seen, kid one approaches school age, parents consider something OTHER than day school, and grandparents swoop in to pay tuition. They cover child #1 for kindergarten, and parents agree rather than fight about it.<br /><br />They may even pay when child 2 enters in 2-3 years. However, eventually, that support ends (the market tanks, business slows down, approaching retirement, we've helped you enough already, etc., etc.) and the parents are left with a child that is sheltered in day school, behind the public school academically, socially unable to branch out, and stuck. Also, socially "acceptable" alternatives like charters and the like don't have as many spots for 3rd grade transfers as they do for kindergarteners, and now trapped.<br /><br />Trapped by short sighted decision making, but trapped nonetheless.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-20021861653372908482011-12-13T11:47:34.013-05:002011-12-13T11:47:34.013-05:00Nephew - most people don't pay their grandchil...Nephew - most people don't pay their grandchildren's full tuitions, but a lot of people give a lot of money towards their grandchildren's tuitions. But those grandchildren may have a lot of problem paying for their own kids, in the absence of parental help.<br /><br />As I see it, the problem is self-limiting; when the money's no longer there, people will no longer sit and learn; people will have fewer children; and many kids will go to public school (seems unthinkable now, but...). Sadly, there will be major pain for the generation that needs to make money but wasn't given the educational skill set to do so. But I think they will learn from their pain and make sure their kids get the skill set they need.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37962229703172627282011-12-13T11:41:17.531-05:002011-12-13T11:41:17.531-05:00Regarding "restarting upward mobility,"
...Regarding "restarting upward mobility,"<br /><br />It's also insane. There is a BIG jump in income moving from poor -> middle class, and a BIG jump from middle class -> upper middle class.<br /><br />Dropping back to poor means taking a BIG CHUNK of communal wealth out and starting over. You can't stop individuals from jumping off the ladder, but you CAN change communal decisions that encourages it.<br /><br />However, looking for that leadership is going to be problematic, because our lay leadership is non-existent beyond funding priorities, and our rabbinic leadership is has a selection bias, they chose learning and therefore are biased towards others doing so. I'm not saying that they don't counsel individuals to make other choices, but a Rabbi is FAR more likely to tell you to learn than a lawyer would, it's human nature to see your own choices as correct.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37339411780000320852011-12-13T11:35:03.883-05:002011-12-13T11:35:03.883-05:00"and i think its ridiculous to bank on it and..."and i think its ridiculous to bank on it and make communal policy based on it."<br /><br />For sure. You question was regarding specific individuals. Most parents don't pay their grandchildren's full tuition.Nephew of Frum Actuarynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-17247606802569661122011-12-13T11:27:54.151-05:002011-12-13T11:27:54.151-05:00Right, having pre-school aged children at home is ...Right, having pre-school aged children at home is not "homeschooling," it's "parenting."Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81981779813814984252011-12-13T11:20:47.856-05:002011-12-13T11:20:47.856-05:00I read the original post on imamother. I think th...I read the original post on imamother. I think the OP is talking about a nursery age child. She needs day care, not day school. Although the tuition discussion is non-the-less valid, it is sad that there is so much pressure to enroll children at that age.Shoshana Z.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-84856808038924110902011-12-13T11:13:09.688-05:002011-12-13T11:13:09.688-05:00NEPHEW:
"Eventually, they restart the upward...NEPHEW:<br /><br />"Eventually, they restart the upward mobility."<br /><br />do you really believe this?<br />of course it does happen, as in the case of your relative. but imho there are high obstacles to the entire community restarting this upward mobility. and i think its ridiculous to bank on it and make communal policy based on it.Abbahttp://abbasrantings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36663802107926211522011-12-13T09:40:34.196-05:002011-12-13T09:40:34.196-05:00Nephew: There are some lawyers who do make seven f...Nephew: There are some lawyers who do make seven figures and help keep the lights on, and many hedge fund managers can light up a whole city. However, the excess tuition and tzedakah of lots of 200K families also help to keep the lights on. The problem is it takes more of them to equal the dontaions of one of the real estate moguls you mention. The problem is that sometimes the big donors are the ones whose voices get heard -- the ones who often want all the bells and whistles and want their names on fancy buildings, ultimately raising the costs for everyone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16024507385380899812011-12-13T09:15:31.746-05:002011-12-13T09:15:31.746-05:00Commenter Abbi:
I already told Tesyaa that almost...Commenter Abbi:<br /><br />I already told Tesyaa that almost everyone shouldn't be taking Tzedaka to learn. In Israel, this is easier, due to lower or no tuition, while in America, taking reduced tuition IS Tzedaka. Nothing to do with Shekalim, Dollars or Pounds.<br /><br />If he lives in Israel, then that is his community, and he should be a giver to that community, not a taker (as Chazal point out "early and often").<br /><br />Mark: No, and I agree. Maybe a married 25 or 30 year old.<br /><br />Abba: Eventually, they restart the upward mobility. A different uncle (not the actuary) sits and learns, because his father supports him. His sons work (real estate & accounting).<br /><br />JS: The people keeping the lights on are not those making 500K as Lawyers or Hedge fund managers. It is those making tens of millions who have real estate holdings, diamonds, nursing homes or other large family businesses. Those parents (from what I have seen first hand) let their children learn until they are needed, and then make them join the business.Nephew of Frum Actuarynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25366895294598527812011-12-13T09:12:25.469-05:002011-12-13T09:12:25.469-05:00New economic downturn coming soon. Be prepared.New economic downturn coming soon. Be prepared.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-26413994125833552712011-12-13T07:54:11.045-05:002011-12-13T07:54:11.045-05:00BTW, any actuarial humor on my part is self-direct...BTW, any actuarial humor on my part is self-directed; hope my colleagues posting here are not taking offense.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-98452774276366042011-12-13T07:29:57.049-05:002011-12-13T07:29:57.049-05:00As an aside, I'm not opposed in principle to c...As an aside, I'm not opposed in principle to communal support for the very top tier of learners - my relative is supposedly an <i>illui</i>, which may be why he was offered a stipend when his parents did not continue financial support after his first two years in yeshiva. But I hear that about so many boys, that they're "brilliant in learning". Way more than 1% or 2% or even 3% of learning boys are walking around thinking they're <i>yechidei segula</i>. Another problem for the actuarial types to ponder...tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-20568269270209234892011-12-13T04:48:42.709-05:002011-12-13T04:48:42.709-05:00"I would have no issue with that, if he is no..."I would have no issue with that, if he is not a burden on his community (let's say in Israel). "<br /><br />Nephew-<br />So, you're ok with him being a drain on MY tax shekalim, as long as your tax and tzedaka dollars are safe? Thanks a bunch! I'll be sure to keep that in mind when your kids are here in Israel for the year and they come knocking on my door for shabbes meals. <br /><br />As the nephew of an actuary, I would think you would know economic rule #1 by heart already: There aint no such thing as a free lunch.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36775169215661181532011-12-13T02:06:09.750-05:002011-12-13T02:06:09.750-05:00Nephew - A College dorm will kill the "value...Nephew - <i> A College dorm will kill the "values" aspect that you are trying to teach (as a 20 year old is just not ready for that sort of influence), by the second year (or even third) in Israel will not kill the "education" aspect, as long as that is known before hand (perhaps it is a parenting crisis as well!).</i><br /><br />So a 20-year-old after 14 years of yeshiva education cannot handle a college dorm, but a 21-year-old with 15 years of yeshiva education can handle it?<br /><br />Perhaps a better solution would be to live at home and attend a college nearby (as I did). That's easy in just about every frum Jewish area of the USA, most of all in the NYC area.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-88108068688903596602011-12-12T23:22:20.905-05:002011-12-12T23:22:20.905-05:00Anon - December 11, 2011 4:33 PM
Our children are...Anon - December 11, 2011 4:33 PM<br /><br />Our children are not yet old enough to work or go to college. But here is what we are emphasizing now in order to "program" them for independence in the near future:<br /><br />1) There is no difference between kodesh and chol. It is all kodesh, including cleaning your house, working to earn a salary, caring for children, etc.<br /><br />2) We model the work ethics that we expect from them now and in the future.<br /><br />3) Focusing on needs v wants and even needs v needs. Sometimes we have to say no even to things that are very valid and important.<br /><br />4) Personal responsibility and self-sufficiency (coupled with)...<br /><br />5) Taking care of the people around you, especially those who are younger than you<br /><br />6) Creative problem solving<br /><br />7) Serving the family unit first which fortifies you to be a good citizen of the world.Shoshana Z.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33934800567690181242011-12-12T23:17:09.635-05:002011-12-12T23:17:09.635-05:00"And who will pay for the great-grandchildren..."And who will pay for the great-grandchildren's tuition?"<br /><br />The RW answer: Moshiach will come before that bill comes due. What other answer could there be?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-24768429941391560072011-12-12T23:01:42.136-05:002011-12-12T23:01:42.136-05:00Abba,
Thank you, you have made the point I've...Abba,<br /><br />Thank you, you have made the point I've been trying (and failing) to make on all these related threads.<br /><br />That, in a nutshell, captures the downward mobility issue:<br /><br />"And who will pay for the great-grandchildren's tuition?"<br /><br />Thank you.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-20729589954504510172011-12-12T22:32:33.868-05:002011-12-12T22:32:33.868-05:00NEPHEW:
"I don't have an issue with that...NEPHEW:<br /><br />"I don't have an issue with that, as long as they pay the grandchildren's tuition (and they can)."<br /><br />And who will pay for the great-grandchildren's tuition?Abbahttp://abbasrantings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com