tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post1437584884539089438..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: A Three Pronged Approach to DesperateOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-75593251172571869372012-10-11T06:38:03.213-04:002012-10-11T06:38:03.213-04:00I know this post is old, but I couldn't sleep ...I know this post is old, but I couldn't sleep and I want to comment on it.<br /><br />"DH can't sleep at night worrying how he'll pay his bills" <br />They're your bills, too, sweetheart!<br /><br />"I'm desperate to help. I can't work too many hours because I cannot kill myself as I have a family to tend to."<br />Then help! So, it's ok for your husband to be up nights, but not ok for you to "kill myself"? Oh, and I guess you didn't think about the fact that you are posting this on a site meant for mothers? How many mothers reading that have full time jobs AND a family?? I'm sure they were annoyed by that.<br /><br />"The only passion I have is for writing and poetry. I can see putting myself into it as a side income. But I don't know where to begin."<br />Just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean it's the only you can do for pay. In fact, writing is something that almost as many people are trying to do as become a famous actor/singer whatever. Just like those fields, most people trying to break into the field aren't good enough to break into it. I can't even tell you how many students I ran across in college who wanted "pie in the sky" type jobs like writing. I read the papers many of them had written. They had no business trying to write professionally. They had serious spelling and grammar issues with their pieces. They didn't know their conclusion from their introduction, sometimes even their your from their you're. Oh and most people who get paid to write have AT MINIMUM a bachelors in English, usually some sort of masters or PhD. <br /><br />I'm also curious, I would bet she is chasidic. <br /><br />As pointed out by commenters here, she should just go get a part time job in retail, restaurant or at a grocery store. Or she can learn to wash sheitels at home. Isn't that what most chasidic women do, anyhow? Also, in the olden days, poor women used to work in the homes of rich women doing their housework or even mending their clothes. If a woman knows how to sew, she can use this for side income. She can make home made craft items to sell or bags or something. When I was in high school, I bought book bags from another student's grandmother that I met at a craft fair. My own grandmother used to crochet blankets, scarves and hats for our family, but you could sell something like that. <br /><br />I find it annoying that she says she can't babysit because she barely has enough patience for her own kids. Also, if the kids are in school and she gets something full time, just hire a high school or college girl to do the after school and morning like everyone else does or pay a SAHM who lives nearby to do it. My grandmother watched our landlord's kids before (@30 mins) and after school (a couple hours) when I was a kid. If you are working full time, you can afford to pay for some help and many women take on extra kids for very little money because they are home anyway.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm with everyone else: her attitude is annoying-oh whoa is me, help me get a job for which I'm not qualified.Michaltastikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06358698308334285154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-67464805224224535732012-08-27T09:08:55.329-04:002012-08-27T09:08:55.329-04:00Al: Of course one is not obligated to live in Tea...Al: Of course one is not obligated to live in Teaneck, but judaism without at least some community is pretty hollow and how do you raise kids to love and value judaism without a community. The killer is not the Teaneck zipcode - its tuition. The tuition requirement is what makes MO judaism the most expensive religion in the U.S. All these brilliant rabbis and leaders and no one has figured out how to make public school become accepted and work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70417641576663439242012-08-27T03:15:12.264-04:002012-08-27T03:15:12.264-04:00Repeat after me, one is obligated to keep Shabbat....Repeat after me, one is obligated to keep Shabbat. Ideally, one lives in reasonable walking distance to Shul. On is NOT obligated to live in Teaneck, there is no inherent holiness of the greater Fort Lee area.<br /><br />Science Graduate school is a special case... the positions are usually funded, especially at a well funded place like MIT. Science graduate students get a stipend and a tuition waiver. While the earning potential isn't that high compared to the professional degrees, you take on no debt post undergraduate, and it's a serious respectable income whether you go into industry or academia.<br /><br />MIT happens to have tons of well funded science research positions, but all research universities have them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50004142343948852662012-08-26T21:20:40.644-04:002012-08-26T21:20:40.644-04:00Mike,
By swimming upstream I just meant doing som...Mike,<br /><br />By swimming upstream I just meant doing something difficult that requires struggle.<br /><br />The women we know from the universities and graduate schools we went to all tend to work and are career (and family) driven. Most of these people have "high powered" careers.<br /><br />In the RWMO community we used to live in people got married very young and had kids immediately (and have lots of kids), but the women tended to work, mostly in the PT/OT/ST professions and would work very part-time schedules once they had kids.<br /><br />In the LWMO community we live in now people marry later and have kids later (and fewer kids), but the women mostly do not work and are married to men with "high powered" jobs.<br /><br />It's an odd mix in my opinion. If I had to choose, I'd say the RWMO community we lived in has a healthier attitude towards work in terms of both sexes, but the average income (even with only one spouse working) is higher in our LWMO community.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-76518186161066597472012-08-26T21:11:09.906-04:002012-08-26T21:11:09.906-04:00Anon - What type of religion doesn't have room...Anon - <i>What type of religion doesn't have room for the 50K auto mechanic married to the 40K secretary?</i><br /><br />It's not a problem with religion, it's a problem with location and expectations. In Teaneck, you can't easily be a mechanic* married to a secretary, but in other places (all of Israel, for example) you can be.<br /><br />* Unless you own the shop and have 10 mechanics working for you :-)Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05760733574758883958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-7530828214734041812012-08-26T20:55:13.160-04:002012-08-26T20:55:13.160-04:00For those advocating delaying child bearing, don&#...For those advocating delaying child bearing, don't forget that some of you may also have an extra almost full-time job taking care of a parent or grandparent when you are in your 40's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32411029815477230762012-08-26T20:52:58.511-04:002012-08-26T20:52:58.511-04:00I give a lot of credit to I did it and Mike's ...I give a lot of credit to I did it and Mike's wife, but we have to be realistic. How many people are capable of getting into a master's or PhD program at MIT (let alone undergrad) or some other grad program that will pay a stipend and not require a huge outlay for tuition and be able to handle such a high powered, intense program while raising a family. My grad. program required full days of classes, clinicals, study groups and nights and Sundays studying. Maybe I was a bit slow, but I barely saw my husband for the 3 years. I never could have cared for a family at the same time, even with the most helpful husband. Let's also not forget in a tight job market that many night school programs (i.e. law, mba, accounting) are not nearly as well-respected in the job market as full time programs from good schools. It's going to vary a lot by field and area of the country. Further, even if everyone follows the plan - get a degree and experience in the field before starting a family - as much as we might like to think we are a nation of superstar intellects, only a percentage are going to have the ability and skill (and yes, luck on timing of entering the job market) to get those lucrative careers to finance several yeshiva tuitions and MO lifestyle. While I do think that everyone should mazimize earning capacity to a reasonable degree, the frum life as currently structured is just not sustainable. There needs to be both a big increase in earning power and substantial changes in acceptable schooling models and options. Besides, who wants a religion that is only for those with two professional high earning families. What type of religion doesn't have room for the 50K auto mechanic married to the 40K secretary?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36712482558478418552012-08-26T19:00:23.530-04:002012-08-26T19:00:23.530-04:00JS: We never felt we were swimming upstream. Sur...JS: We never felt we were swimming upstream. Sure, it wasn't always easy but that was a function of MIT not being easy for anyone more than a function of age or life status.<br /><br />Nor do I see the attitude you mention at all; almost all of the women in our circle work for pay in fields at which they have at least an undergraduate degree. Some worked pretty much straight through, others took some time off to work and went back. Nor do my kids or their friends or my friends' kids feel pressure to get married young. A couple of them married young despite parental concerns, but I don't think it came from communal pressure.<br /><br />Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33090010610790775522012-08-26T18:10:05.871-04:002012-08-26T18:10:05.871-04:00My comments all stem from the original post: a fam...My comments all stem from the original post: a family at its wit's end with a SAHM who is undereducated, likely never held a job, entitled, and seeking get rich quick schemes centered around her passion for poetry while turning her nose up at real work. I see this same attitude even in my LWMO community with the many, many women with zero job skills who patronize my wife when they tell her how great it is she works.<br /><br />There's a communal problem and it exists across the spectrum, though it manifests differently, perhaps, in each community. The problem stems from a maladapted communal attitude that is better suited for the 1950's than today. Part of this is an attitude towards women and their place in the family and in society and part of it seems to be based on the notion that the average life expectancy is 50ish.<br /><br />The "solution" I proposed is simply what the rest of the world does - how the rest of society finds success in the workplace. They don't do it by marrying young, having kids right away, starting careers late, or having one spouse at home. Maybe that would work in other parts of country or with religions that don't mandate expensive private school and other expenses.<br /><br />I did it and Mike S's approaches are wonderful and it's great to hear stories of people busting their butts and swimming upstream and finding great success.<br /><br />Even with the "communal approach" I was suggesting (that it's possible nowadays to have large families later and to learn later, instead of earlier), there's always room for other approaches. The problem is the default communal approach and the default peer pressure. No one is pressured to marry later or wait to have kids or to get a great secular education and work really hard at a career. The peer pressure and societal norms are all in the OPPOSITE direction. My point is simply it would be nice to have a shift whereby the pressures lead to success, on average, and not failure.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27700671511136086132012-08-26T14:11:10.694-04:002012-08-26T14:11:10.694-04:00Miami Al,
Not all careers are like law. In the s...Miami Al,<br /><br />Not all careers are like law. In the sciences the ROI for grad school later in life is much better, since you typically are not paying tuition but even receiving a small stipend. In my wife's case it covered the needed extra childcare. A downside is they aren't as used to having adult students.<br /><br />Sending my kids to Israel for a year was a great investment. Two of the three made aliyah, which I support ideologically. College is a lot less at Israeli prices than US prices. Especially if the student serves in the army. Just pick a Zionist program.<br /><br />I know my choices aren't right for everyone. But neither is going straight through school and spending your mid twenties as a resident or an associate at a large law firm. Or any other fixed paradigm.<br /><br />SL, either I am a robot and don't know it or you've got the difficulty on the captcha turned up too highMike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1792954446262509582012-08-26T13:53:26.362-04:002012-08-26T13:53:26.362-04:00The Frum community's meta-problem is the stand...The Frum community's meta-problem is the standard American one: spending more than one earns, compounded by the Frum one: much of the overspending is communal and therefore socialized, and others is destructive social norms masked in religious obligations.<br /><br />Tuition = Cost per Student / Collection Rate<br /><br />You can help the tuition crisis by reducing the Cost Per Student OR Increasing the Collection Rate. The former is a function of cost containment, the latter is a function of increasing incomes. Falling incomes are partially socialized via scholarship, that's dangerous.<br /><br />Replacing "year in Israel" with "senior summer in Israel" and possibly "sophomore summer" in Israel would seem to me the biggest bang for the buck.<br /><br />A community college + Yeshiva/Kollel path in RW communities would be the next biggest bang for the buck. There are lots of career paths that require certifications/associate degree level programs, particularly in health care, that provide a solid middle class income without a ton of schooling. That won't create your machers, but if you increase the percentage paid by the scholarship level, that would have a big impact.<br /><br />A K-4 Charter School solution would seem to be the higher risk move, but potential reduces the day school burden dramatically, especially if you did your Jewish Studies component BEFORE AND AFTER SCHOOL. Not only would you reduce the per-child private school expenses by a third, that ought to boost your collection rate and therefore drive tuition down further.<br /><br />A smaller improvement, but less risky, would be to me a diocese style approach. OU/YI/Agudah affiliated synagogues should divert some funds to establish synagogues in nearby by more affordable neighborhoods, perhaps even simply cheaper areas of the same city. This would help young families stay within their means LONGER and therefore might boost your collection rate some by reducing outlays for housing. There is tremendous pressure and incentives to move into a neighborhood you can't afford. This wouldn't touch the incentives, but would reduce the pressure.<br /><br />I'm not sure where else you can get really good ROIs, those seem to me like the biggest ones. Arguing about Simchaot seems pointless. I don't think you can affect change there, and I don't think it's a cost driver. I think it's a function of extreme economic diversity, so it's a symptom and not a cause.<br /><br />The teacher and doctor making the same simcha is not a function of the doctor overspending, it's a function of the teacher erroneously thinking that he's an economic peer of the doctor. Separate them into sister Shuls in different towns, the teacher naturally drops the spending down toward teacher levels.<br /><br />I went to a regional middle school, and grew up Reform. I went to Reform Bar Mitzvahs in various areas. I assure you, we all celebrated our Bar Mitzvah in 7th grade, but the modest families threw VERY different affairs than the wealthy families... but we lived in different cities and attending different synagogues. I'm guessing the people that stretched to belong to the Synagogue and City that had Doctors/Lawyers overspent dramatically.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-71061653466684031742012-08-26T13:52:39.093-04:002012-08-26T13:52:39.093-04:00There is no one "right way" to support y...There is no one "right way" to support your family. What is important is that the family do it.<br /><br />Things to consider:<br /><br />1. Education is harder to achieve when you have responsibilities vs. older, this is why schools encourage "traditional students" and the Yeshiva world pushes years in Yeshiva/Kollel.<br /><br />2. Secular Education towards a profession is an ROI decision, in some ways its vocational training, as in qualifying for your professional vocation. A JD @ age 25 will provide 40 years of legal career for an ROI. A JD @ 40 will provide 25 years of it. This is compounded by the fact that the "fast track" earnings tracks assume long hours simply not available to people with family responsibilities (they cater to the young and childless), such educations provide a greater ROI the earlier they are achieved.<br /><br />3. Learning for its own sake can take place anytime.. whether that be serious Talmud Torah OR esoteric liberal arts. My grandmother took University courses into her 80s, she enjoyed them and wasn't pursuing a degree, and paid cash for them at a state school. People that love learning can put their kids into adulthood and move on to daily learning, there is no ROI issue there.<br /><br />4. "Second Careers" happen, work, and can help a family navigate life. Families that choose to do that, whether the first career is home making or kollel, you absolutely should make the best decision you can.<br /><br />5. Someone born to a well to do family, attended great schools, etc., is more likely to do well than a person without those advantages. That is part of why we admire the stories where someone overcame adversity. I am far MORE impressed with "I Did It"'s life story than JS's story, which is in turn more impressive than mine.<br /><br />That said, if I were able to set communal norms for impressionable 18 year olds, either my pattern or JS's pattern has a higher expected value.<br /><br />If I am writing inspirational articles, I want the "up from the bootstraps" story that "I Did It" brings to the table. But if you want to look at the economic plight of the Frum community, it's NOT a great strategy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-48815025499766040402012-08-26T12:11:51.360-04:002012-08-26T12:11:51.360-04:00I don't even understand the concept of a "...I don't even understand the concept of a "communal solution" for the problem of chronic underemployment. Who exactly will sponsor such a solution? Whom is this community of which you're speaking? Right wing? Yeshivish? Modern Orthodox? How and why on earth would a solution that works for a modern orthodox family work for a yeshivish one with barely the same educational background?<br /><br />Of course I did it's career path wouldn't work for everyone. That would require a fundamental shift in attitude by the right wing towards the value of secular education, work in the "outside world" and approach to kollel learning. That's not happening any time soon. But look at that, Mike S reports that his family also successfully navigated higher learning and growing families. The trick is to figure out why these families have succeeded and try to apply that to the rest of whatever community you're talking about. <br /><br />When you question the value of I did it's story because it doesn't seem like an easy solution for the rest of the community, I consider that a takedown as well as myopic.<br /><br />PS: SL, anyway you can adjust this captcha verification? It's really hard to complete.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-43488415727756023772012-08-26T11:44:12.215-04:002012-08-26T11:44:12.215-04:00I think that I Did it's story is an important ...I think that <b>I Did it</b>'s story is an important one, not because it justifies the economically destructive societal norms -- it doesn't, but because it is an inspiring reminder that even if you did things "wrong" life is not over and you can turn things around.<br /><br />Far too often, one throws up their hands and suggests that they "can't" do something because of a bad decision, bad luck, etc., or some other calamity that came their way.<br /><br />It's garbage.<br /><br />You can learn from the past, but you can't change it.<br /><br />As her story is a reminder, even if you find yourself behind the eight ball, it is NOT a life sentence to poverty. When we decry social forces that encourage bad behavior (a scholarship system that discourages adding a second/third income), it does not change the fact that moral individuals can overcome bad circumstances.<br /><br />I find her story inspiring.<br /><br />I just wouldn't make "policy" based upon her story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-4534510479921309302012-08-26T11:44:10.914-04:002012-08-26T11:44:10.914-04:00But there are lots of ways to remain financially s...But there are lots of ways to remain financially sound and successful while raising a family. The notion that there is one communal solution for everybody is just silly. My wife worked while I was in graduate school, then went back for a masters and finished just as our 1st kid was born (I mean she took her written quals for her PhD on Thursday, handed in her thesis Friday, went to the movies (Out of Africa) motzaei Shabbat and had baby on Sunday. Then took off a few years while our 3 oldest kids were little, went back for a PhD (MIT), had another child, and is now the chairman of the engineering department at a teaching college. Is that a good path for everyone? Heck no. But it worked for us, and similar things worked for others we know.<br /><br />There are all kinds of ways to make your life work financially and, aside from not spending money you haven't got, there isn't one way to do it. You can postpone a family, or have a small one, or go back to school afterward, or home school or teach at a school that takes faculty kids without tuition or .... None of these will work for everyone, and they all work for some people.Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-69999989242977421122012-08-26T11:13:51.821-04:002012-08-26T11:13:51.821-04:00I don't see any put downs either. In fact, I s...I don't see any put downs either. In fact, I see mainly congratulations.<br /><br />Recognizing, as <b>even</b> "I did it" does in one of her responses, that what she did is neither typical nor easily done, is not a put down!Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05760733574758883958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-35972128397309526992012-08-26T10:53:32.895-04:002012-08-26T10:53:32.895-04:00Abbi,
I'm not seeing "I did it" bei...Abbi,<br /><br />I'm not seeing "I did it" being put down. <br /><br />What I am seeing is people pointing out that that is the harder way, and the way less likely to end up meeting with success.<br /><br />After all, while winning the lottery may solve an individuals financial problems, that does not make it a good communal solution. Similarly, people succeeding at low-odds career or life paths does not mean it is wise as a general piece of advice.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-2785582667831848182012-08-26T05:43:17.046-04:002012-08-26T05:43:17.046-04:00Mark, I'm talking about the commentor "I ...Mark, I'm talking about the commentor "I did it". Read through the thread. The reactions to her story are basically "Well, you got lucky, not everyone can do this, this isn't a solution for the whole community, etc..." <br /><br />"I actually did the reverse: got married at 19 and started a large family right away, but was done by 32. I got all the necessary schooling done during the time I was having babies by going to school at night. When my youngest was 2, I was able to start working in my field. I put in my "dues" same as the people a decade younger than me just starting out, and we made it work during those 2-3 years of proving myself because my husband- who had been working hard and long hours during the previous decade- was able to negotiate a more flexible schedule without taking too much of a hit in salary. At this point, we're both making high salaries and have some control over our schedules, and life is very busy but not frenzied. B'H everyone is cared for emotionally and financially. Joining the work-force late has not impacted my career in any way; in fact, it's not at all unusual for people to embark on second careers and such. Maybe it would have been a different story had I been older than my early 30s, but I was (and still am) young enough to have a solid career trajectory ahead of me."Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-83361873313168084642012-08-26T02:16:26.948-04:002012-08-26T02:16:26.948-04:00Abbi - Someone finally talks about a frum success ...Abbi - <i>Someone finally talks about a frum success story, really working hard and making it honestly and the regulars here still find (very subtle) ways of taking her down.</i><br /><br />I'm not sure what you're talking about. The person is desperate for more money, can't sleep at night due to worry, and likes writing and poetry (and thinks she can make an income from that). That isn't much of a success story, is it?Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05760733574758883958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86750667113052179122012-08-26T01:24:45.546-04:002012-08-26T01:24:45.546-04:00I did it, Thank you for sharing your story. I thi...I did it, Thank you for sharing your story. I think there are some advantages to starting a career later. . . including some life experience and knowing that what you are embarking on is what you actually want to do. For me, I just got lucky that it fit well.Orthonomicshttp://orthonomics.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-48546056623657655772012-08-26T00:40:13.146-04:002012-08-26T00:40:13.146-04:00I'm fascinated by the tone of these comments. ...I'm fascinated by the tone of these comments. Someone finally talks about a frum success story, really working hard and making it honestly and the regulars here still find (very subtle) ways of taking her down. Unbelievable. I know it feels good to rant about community problems, but this really takes it a bit too far.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-22462282502455179182012-08-24T13:48:03.335-04:002012-08-24T13:48:03.335-04:00Anon 1:19: keep in mind, I went to work when the y...Anon 1:19: keep in mind, I went to work when the youngest was 2, so we did not have all 7 in school before I was working. Among other things, we did not send to school before kindergarten (as I was home, although the last one did go to preschool), so we actually "only" had 5 tuitions to worry about before I started working. I know, it's still a lot, but I'm just showing how it still wasn't all of them. <br /><br />We do send to more RW schools, so that helps too. These schools are quite a bit cheaper. <br /><br />My husband was making a good salary the entire time, but yeah, with all those kids, it was very difficult, even doing all the usual frugal-y stuff (although again, since I was home, I had more time to do all that frugal-y stuff). We went without a lot of things we would have liked to have, all with the end goal in mind. We did have help from family, but not in the form of a monthly check- it came in the form hand me downs (clothes and baby gear) and free babysitting (my husband could not always make it home in time for me to get to class), and us going to them for every YT- I "paid" them back by going over there very early erev YT to do most of the cooking, and B'H continue to pay them back by hosting THEM in our home now that we have the space and the means to do so :-) They still babysit a lot though, because they love their eineklach (even though my older ones can and do babysit, I don't like to rely on them- I don't want them to feel forced to always babysit). I did itnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14206286856858538472012-08-24T13:35:39.115-04:002012-08-24T13:35:39.115-04:00I did it: Sounds like your husband was in Law or t...I did it: Sounds like your husband was in Law or the type, and you could have been a SAHM (and still paid full tuition) had he not cut back. Good for you that you were willing to do so and give your husband a break.<br /><br />Most people can't do that. Anon 1:19 is correct, that had your husband not made the quarter million that you needed in your 20's (or had you nod had family support), you may have gone under.<br /><br />Furthermore, the fact that my wife & I think that those who need to "wheel their kids in bugaboos and dress them in Jacadi" quite literally have mental health issues, certainly creates a mindset of savings, both for ourselves & our children. It would help for others as well, but part of the Frum World is to "keep up with the Cohens'", either on the money or frumkeit sides (and sometimes both).Nephew of Frum Actuarynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72975267255389097072012-08-24T13:19:25.119-04:002012-08-24T13:19:25.119-04:00I did it: Congratulations. I'm so glad this ...I did it: Congratulations. I'm so glad this worked out for you. The question I have about following this approach is before mom is an earner, how does a family pay for school for 7 kids and for several years of night school tuition for mom? It sounds like this plan would only work if there is family help/inherited money, dad is a very high earner from early on or the family is getting tuition or other help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70964915242618236042012-08-24T13:14:31.838-04:002012-08-24T13:14:31.838-04:00JS- I would not suggest it in the aggregate unless...JS- I would not suggest it in the aggregate unless the aggregate is willing to make the requisite sacrifices. I'd REALLY like for it to work for the masses (I am more on the RW end of things), but I doubt it will. You have to plan ahead (obviously to the extent that life can be planned); you have to be prepared to live uncomfortably for awhile, because the financial success won't come until you're closer to 40. As much as I march to my own beat, I must confess it wasn't always easy hearing about my peers buying houses nearly a decade before it was a consideration for us, and watching my neighbors wheeling their kids in bugaboos and dressing them in Jacadi while I was using pretty much all hand-me-downs with Carters filling the gaps. Now, I can look back and say I'm glad we stuck to our guns. I got to be home all day with my kids when they were little like I wanted, to nurse them as long as I felt necessary (all nursed at least 18 months), I was the one there in those early, formative years. During the years that I couldn't be there as much, my husband was able to be the one more there, so I didn't feel guilty, because a loving father is just as important as a loving mother, so they weren't lacking in parental love or attention in any way. But having the security we have now, while still managing to raise our kids according to certain priorities we felt important was SO WORTH forgoing the bugaboos and living in the same 3 bedroom for 8 years. I did itnoreply@blogger.com