tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post1986635075686795953..comments2024-02-21T05:24:49.494-05:00Comments on Orthonomics: But They Aren't Funding EVERYTHING!Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger106125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-20966504200084770712012-02-19T14:01:53.312-05:002012-02-19T14:01:53.312-05:00BOYCOTT NASI
Tell Nasi; no extortion
Get a real j...BOYCOTT NASI<br /><br />Tell Nasi; no extortion<br />Get a real job!saramaimonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46947200069796234872012-01-31T08:28:28.957-05:002012-01-31T08:28:28.957-05:00You seriously think that universal, all-day, inten...You seriously think that universal, all-day, intensive religious education for a dozen years has been the norm throughout Jewish history?<br /><br />(Hint: The answer to that is, "no".)Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-79186751245725872462012-01-30T21:15:30.970-05:002012-01-30T21:15:30.970-05:00Dave and Miami Al
“The intensive Day School model...Dave and Miami Al<br /><br />“The intensive Day School model is very new, in Jewish history. Therefore, whatever the Halachic requirement for a religious education is, it cannot be that a Day School education is required. …”<br /><br />The only ‘very new’ parts of our schools are the girls in them and the insane tuition. There are Responsa dating back to the Geonic period that discuss the community school’s curriculum. I can’t find the reponsa from Hai Gaon that allows Math and Arabic to be taught in the school under discussion- I am sure I saw R. Ovadia mentioning it somewhere; will look up when I find my Bar Ilan disc - But since these communal schools were supported with communal funds, there are some recorded discussion of the allocation of funds throughout the past two millennia . Some sort of general studies were, apparently sometimes included for little kids and the requirement to educate bigger boys who are not continuing on the “Academic” Gemara track, towards a ‘trade’ is codified in the siman above. The “Day School” as we know it probably took its present form in 1890s Berlin’s ‘realschule’, but that hardly counts as “very new”, considering that in the 1890s , universal elementary education was ‘very new’.mom2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16216594177854214382012-01-30T21:09:19.564-05:002012-01-30T21:09:19.564-05:00IRS and Anonymous 9:06
IRS said…”I wonder if your ...IRS and Anonymous 9:06<br />IRS said…”I wonder if your opinion changes if the following is true - 1) there is no tax and tuition is set at the "real cost" of education (whatever that means) - as I noted above, I certainly know that this is true in a number of schools so I have no reason to assume it is not true in others, 2) the car is not a necessity and/or the type of car is not a necessity -..and 3) ..other options, like JFS - which charges a tuition commiserate with their ability to pay.”<br /><br />The results of a different test case will obviously produce different results. The reason that the originally stumbled upon test case was so powerfully heuristic was that it served to illustrate that no matter how extreme the frugality and no matter how industrious the parents, no matter how small the requested tuition reduction, every single commentator on this blog immediately jumped to denounce a large family seeking a very ordinary consumer good. It seemed to me to go way beyond recommendation of conservation of resources. It seemed downright punitive, but I am glad to be told that this sentiment was flowing from a misunderstanding of the case.<br /><br />Regarding your case: Halacha seems to evaluate necessities vs. luxuries on a “reasonable man “/'local custom ' standard and this will differ according to time and place. Lets leave number 1 aside for a moment because a town that does not set aside some sort of funded mechanism for the full day torah instruction of poor boys, would be excommunicated (under the stated law), so a nice community such as the one you described is not likely to fail to raise some sort of funds for this , any more than it is likely to fail to meet its communal obligation ( no individual obligation) to build a mikvah or a shul. So, for the moment lets go to 2) If they can find something cheaper but equally a serviceable, then of course a “nicer car” is a luxury and should be forgone, as should any expansive luxuries. But if the cheaper car will require frequent trips to the mechanic like their old car which cost both time and money, then doesn’t asking them to buy the cheaper one just seem punitive and petty? A person seeking communal funds should be living a modest lifestyle but doesn’t need to give up what are standard living norms, like a reliable car. <br /> As for JFS, which I know nothing about, if a school can give a kid a sound Torah/Mishna/Talmud/ curriculum plus preparation for sensible career, then of course it sounds great. If going there means ( going there is safe, right? I mean he is not taking a dangerous route there-right? And a regular commute that reasonable parents would undertake?) means no other kids will ever talk to him, that is probably too big a sacrifice to ask the parents to make. If it means no snobby kids will ever talk to him, it sounds like a good trade off.mom2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32556996996151825272012-01-30T17:38:48.941-05:002012-01-30T17:38:48.941-05:00JS:
to clarify further, unless you are committed ...JS:<br /><br />to clarify further, unless you are committed to home schooling for the limudei kodesh (don't underestimate what this requires), practically public school may not make sense (finance-wise) without the critical mass.Abba's Rantingsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-30461825441437565612012-01-30T16:39:23.919-05:002012-01-30T16:39:23.919-05:00JS:
no complaints with the school per se.
just to...JS:<br /><br />no complaints with the school per se.<br />just to clarify, i don't think it is necessary to have a critical mass in the school itself (although i would probably feel differently for older grades for social reasons). but it is necessary for providing the jewish education.Abba's Rantingshttp://abbasrantings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-92105210614574320062012-01-30T15:38:16.716-05:002012-01-30T15:38:16.716-05:00Abba's,
Would you care to elaborate on your e...Abba's,<br /><br />Would you care to elaborate on your experience with your son in public school?JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33738731051546975302012-01-30T15:38:04.319-05:002012-01-30T15:38:04.319-05:00There is no environment to keep people not in Day ...<i>There is no environment to keep people not in Day School active parts of the community, and with 90% in Day School, why bother.</i><br /><br />Excellent point, and it's not even a question of "why bother". In the frum world it's assumed that a child in public school is either off-the-derech or soon to be, or if not, at the very least, will bring bad influences from public school to any frum child with whom he or she socializes. (Never mind that yeshiva kids do not appear to behave any better than other kids).tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-79529025232552620462012-01-30T15:25:44.250-05:002012-01-30T15:25:44.250-05:00Abba's Rantings,
I'm saying that critical...Abba's Rantings,<br /><br />I'm saying that critical mass or no, people aren't interested. Mormons use public schools without critical mass.<br /><br />However, Orthodoxy is setup to assume everyone is in Day School. There is no environment to keep people not in Day School active parts of the community, and with 90% in Day School, why bother.<br /><br />The LDS Church doesn't seem to have any focus on private primary/secondary education, so their Church serves to anchor people in the community. The Shul is secondary to the Yeshiva as the cultural anchor.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-54751773974876456532012-01-30T15:22:10.085-05:002012-01-30T15:22:10.085-05:00AL:
"My point is the, "well, we'd n...AL:<br /><br />"My point is the, "well, we'd need critical mass" argument is garbage. <br /><br />above i was not making a "critical mass" argument. rather i was responding to the comment that jews in public school wouldn't work because no state has a majority of jews, and PS won't work without the "critical mass." i was not commenting on the actual need or lack thereof for "critical mass."<br /><br />although now that you're challenging the need for "critical mass," i will state that my own experience with my son in public school has convinced me that it doesn't work without critical mass. (originally i would have agreed with you.)Abba's Rantingsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14813784417959259362012-01-30T15:20:10.507-05:002012-01-30T15:20:10.507-05:00Dave, I don't think it matters. The movement ...Dave, I don't think it matters. The movement creates the halacha, as other cultural movement create their own standards of behavior. The only difference is that Orthodox Judaism pretends that the standards as they are today have always been there, and have never changed.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80226397149873242522012-01-30T15:03:20.857-05:002012-01-30T15:03:20.857-05:00Yeshiva/Day School is, in many ways, a bigger mark...<i>Yeshiva/Day School is, in many ways, a bigger marker of Frumkeit than Mitzvah observance.</i><br /><br />As I think I've said before, contemporary Orthodox Judaism is a cultural movement which largely correlates with Halacha. However, when cultural conventions conflict with Halacha, they win.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14425467528594065902012-01-30T15:00:29.031-05:002012-01-30T15:00:29.031-05:00tesyaa,
I agree. There are adventurous people wh...tesyaa,<br /><br />I agree. There are adventurous people who don't care what their neighbors may say who will send to alternative options, but the vast majority will continue sending to yeshiva no matter how poor a financial decision it is for them personally (and continue whining the whole time). The schools will continue giving scholarships to all who ask rather than turn people away and wealthy donors (and, to a lesser extent, full payers) will continue to be asked to pick up the tab.<br /><br />The system will continue until the yeshiva just can't pay the bills anymore. It will happen suddenly and without much warning as we've seen with some recent closures.<br /><br />People will still not get the message that the fundamental model is unsustainable and will make calls for urgent fundraising to raise a new school in the ashes of the old. Again, we've seen this before.<br /><br />It will be interesting to see the long-term effect of all this spending. Given the limited supply of money logic would dictate that eventually something will have to give.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46900113400376797952012-01-30T14:42:31.635-05:002012-01-30T14:42:31.635-05:00Tesyaa,
I know people that aren't fully Shome...Tesyaa,<br /><br />I know people that aren't fully Shomer Shabbos, eat hot dairy out, and wouldn't consider anything other than the local Day School for pre-school.<br /><br />Others have urged me to file false tax returns to the scholarship committee so I could send my children to the local day school cheaply.<br /><br />Yeshiva/Day School is, in many ways, a bigger marker of Frumkeit than Mitzvah observance.<br /><br />To each their own.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-45406467102593636952012-01-30T14:34:08.250-05:002012-01-30T14:34:08.250-05:00Al - I have reached the conclusion that people do ...Al - I have reached the conclusion that people do not want change. Even if important rabbis came out with a responsum today that public schools (or public schools in areas with critical mass, or charter schools) were halachically permissible, no one would budge from their financially unsustainable day schools and yeshivot.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-47239920721360181102012-01-30T14:27:51.712-05:002012-01-30T14:27:51.712-05:00Abba's Ranting,
My point is the, "well, ...Abba's Ranting,<br /><br />My point is the, "well, we'd need critical mass" argument is garbage. There are schools with critical mass, nothing scheduled Friday evenings, with Kosher lunches, and no interest.<br /><br />Well, the Mormons have this model and seem to be having some success.<br /><br />The regional issue was thrown out in combination with "critical mass," I've just pointed out that where there is that "critical mass" there still isn't much interest.<br /><br />No tuition crisis, just a whining crisis, soon to be a retirement crisis.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53849294110585244232012-01-30T13:59:33.377-05:002012-01-30T13:59:33.377-05:00AL:
"Hebrew Language Charter in Brooklyn: ap...AL:<br /><br />"Hebrew Language Charter in Brooklyn: apparently 40% Jewish"<br /><br />it's highter in the lower grades, a function of the progression of the school. but in any case there is almost zero orthodox interest. <br />(btw the other steinhardt school in highland park is structured much more realistically for families who intend to give a real supplementary jewish education.)<br /><br />"The Catholic Church's education model is having financial problems (though less than ours), and they are having retention problems."<br /><br />would be interesting to see studies of degree of correlation between catholic school attendance and retention (again, whatever retention means)<br /><br />"what's your point?"<br /><br />with regards to what?Abba's Rantingshttp://abbasrantings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-402375399546481552012-01-30T11:09:46.196-05:002012-01-30T11:09:46.196-05:00Anon 10:49 - Govt. regulations require all of thos...Anon 10:49 - Govt. regulations require all of those safety seats and those safety seats make it impossible to squish 8 kids into a pinto or a vw bug or throw 12 kids into the back of a station wagon like we did when I was growing up, so unfortunately the minivan does become a necessity for a period of time (why families insist on two minimvans rather than one is a different issue. If you have one minivan, the other vehicle should be a tercel). That said, when I was growing up, kids walked to school starting in first grade.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33575232087920898392012-01-30T10:49:51.045-05:002012-01-30T10:49:51.045-05:00Not only does the large family need a vehicle, the...Not only does the large family need a vehicle, they need a large vehicle for their many children.<br /><br />Not only does that vehicle need to be large, it needs to have the newest safety features, because children are precious!<br /><br />It would be WRONG to deny this family their needed vehicle!<br /><br />>sarcasm offAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-55381277463568459422012-01-30T10:42:01.826-05:002012-01-30T10:42:01.826-05:00mom2,
You are right. Using words like "repu...mom2,<br /><br />You are right. Using words like "repulsive" when it comes to a discussion of children is offensive and was not the intent. This discussion started with a theoretical family's decision to redirect payments to their local Yeshiva to pay for a car. My assumptions, and perhaps shared by others based on the discussion above, was that the decision by this family was not based on a request for communal charitable support but rather that they had determined that they should be excused from paying a purported tax that exists on all parents relative to scholarships. Similarly, the desire to purchase a car was not deemed a pure necessity but rather something the family would like to do. Based on your comments, you are clearly working with a different set of assumptions - i.e., "they are asking to be excused from contributing to the added community tax above the cost of the education" and the purchase of the car is "a necessary expenditure, not a luxury, and the Halacha cited would excuse them from this ‘tax’. <br /><br />I wonder if your opinion changes if the following is true - 1) there is no tax and tuition is set at the "real cost" of education (whatever that means) - as I noted above, I certainly know that this is true in a number of schools so I have no reason to assume it is not true in others, 2) the car is not a necessity and/or the type of car is not a necessity - i.e., they can find something cheaper or simply do without even though it would be a significant inconvenience and 3) there are other educational options that the family can avail themselves of - e.g., a school like JFS - which charges a tuition commiserate with their ability to pay.<br /><br />As a rule, we are very generous as a community and go out of our way to help others in need. As you noted, we've all made difficult decisions - even about how many children we have - because we can't get everything that we want. The question is where does the obligation on the family to make difficult trade-offs end and the obligation of the community to pay for those decisions begin.IRShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13431945297561595991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-69133977946059734542012-01-30T10:25:00.112-05:002012-01-30T10:25:00.112-05:00Suggesting that learning US History in an all Jewi...Suggesting that learning US History in an all Jewish setting is somehow a communal obligation is an interesting modern Halacha.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-45097601652617815062012-01-30T09:55:30.901-05:002012-01-30T09:55:30.901-05:00Couples who have many children have higher social ...Couples who have many children have higher social status in the Orthodox community than couples with fewer children. Some couples, especially naive BTs, may confuse this increased social status with a desire on the community's part to help support them financially. In general, this is not the case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36603780244565615372012-01-30T09:06:00.657-05:002012-01-30T09:06:00.657-05:00Mom2: Even if a few of the commenters used langua...Mom2: Even if a few of the commenters used language that is a bit over the top, we should ask where that view comes from. How many 7 children families fit the narrow hypothetical presented - living frugally and paying 90% of their kids' full tuitions. How many 7+ children families are taking/expecting some form of assistance, whether tuition discounts or government benefits.<br /><br />As for whether or not groceries are commodities and tuition is not, isn't the highest mitzvah to feed a hungry person rather than finance a full-time exclusive jewish education that goes beyond the halacha of teaching Torah which can be done outside of a yeshiva.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36572513915999899982012-01-30T08:41:51.973-05:002012-01-30T08:41:51.973-05:00The intensive Day School model is very new, in Jew...The intensive Day School model is very new, in Jewish history.<br /><br />Therefore, whatever the Halachic requirement for a religious education is, it cannot be that a Day School education is required. If it were, that would mean that up until the modern day, nearly all otherwise observant Jews would have been in violation of Halacha. <br /><br />Therefore, it is disingenuous to insist that the community subsidize a Day School education. If we look at what the average Jewish pre-war education was in Europe, that can be easily met with an inexpensive afterschool Talmud Torah.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-52088379519827611602012-01-30T08:30:50.737-05:002012-01-30T08:30:50.737-05:00Many people have commented about a "baked in ...Many people have commented about a "baked in subsidy of 10% (or 2500, depending on the speaker)". My comments are based on knowing someone who worked on the tuition committee and did accounting work for the school (a CPA). He said that they need every parent to pay full tuition for the budget to work. They did not have the baked in subsidy-- tuition discounts came based on the money from scholarships and the dinner. Thus, those commentators who have suggested that they can automatically ask for the baked in subsidy be taken off are not always asking something feasible of the school. <br /><br />I understand that prices go up, and parents dont always budget correctly. But what about those parents who dont budget at all and just assume "the community will provide because they HAVE to"? I know of some people who don't go for the well paying job that would allow them to pay more tuition because it is inconvenient, requires long hours, or not the most favorable conditions. They rationalize it "because all the money would go towards tuition anyways so why should I work harder?". I guess those people are the results of a "give me" generation.No Name Yetnoreply@blogger.com