tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post2022659826888443438..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-54377622970040810822008-08-28T16:16:00.000-04:002008-08-28T16:16:00.000-04:00How many orthodox Jews that you know today had anc...<I>How many orthodox Jews that you know today had ancestors who lived here 100 years ago? where are all their descendants?</I><BR/><BR/>Many of them are now non-Jews, but not solely because they didn't go to day schools, but rather because their total level of commitment to Judaism was lower. Not sending kids to day schools is only a symptom, not the disease.<BR/><BR/>The disease is "living in a non-Jewish free and open society" (and not being affluent enough to insulate your family from it). The Jews that lived in the USA at the start of the 20'th century "lost their religion" pretty quickly and in a few easy steps. First step was "not looking too Jewish" (there was massive discrimination), second step was "working on Shabbat" (there were no laws prohibiting having to work on Saturday), third step was "fitting in" (the kids had to be allowed to mingle with the neighbors), and voila, fourth step is marrying the neighbors daughter. And that is the end of the line for that particular Jewish family.<BR/><BR/>BUT, it doesn't solely relate to day schools. My parents, and the vast majority of their friends, went to public school (interestingly enough, my father spent a few weeks at Torah VoDaas before he spoke any English, but hated it and switched to public school) and of the 15 or so (and only about 2/3 of those were strictly orthodox to begin with) that they are still in contact with, none married non-Jews. Unfortunately, some of their children have. I think that at the time (1950's), in New York City, the public schools were full of Jews, orthodox and non-orthodox, so the kids could socialize with other Jews. Today, there are hardly any orthodox Jews in the public schools, and even the non-orthodox tend to send their kids more and more to private day schools.<BR/><BR/>In my neighborhood, there is a definite stigma on kids who go to public school. Some parents don't want their kids to socialize with them, and that only increases the chance that those orthodox kids in public school will stray. It's not fair, but it is a fact (it is also one of the reasons all my kids are in day school).<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36100224172780898452008-08-28T14:20:00.000-04:002008-08-28T14:20:00.000-04:00According the the demographic numbers, Orthodox Je...According the the demographic numbers, Orthodox Jews have lowered their intermarriage rate from 10% to 3%, while other groups have gone from around 20% to 33% (Conservative), 45% (Reform), 55% (Unaffiliated/Secular)... it is hypothesized that Day School is a big part of that fact, because Day Schools have a high correlation with avoiding intermarriage.<BR/><BR/>What this ignores is the explosion in birth rates. Sending 2-3 children to Day School is one thing, 8-9 to Yeshiva is another.<BR/><BR/>Also, none of these demographic studies look at observance in the home. Orthodox, demographically, means member of Orthodox synagogue... two generations ago, most Orthodox members weren't Shabbat observant. Now, most are. That has to have a huge impact on intermarriage, because the religion has way more meaning to those that practice it than those that learn about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-48706353419698159502008-08-27T15:40:00.000-04:002008-08-27T15:40:00.000-04:00Thank you, Sarek. You understood the purpose of m...Thank you, Sarek. You understood the purpose of my post.<BR/><BR/>We're not looking for this college to give us a free education. We work hard, have tried to be careful with spending (although, to be honest, not as fruggily/carefully as this blogger), and just hope the finance offices will work with us a bit more, as the yeshivas have.<BR/><BR/>I've known of several instances where parents home schooled their kids, but there is no way these kids could be considered even LWMO. Maybe it was the lack of contact with O peers, Rabbis, Morahs, whatever, but it just didnm't work. Maybe it's more viable with a group of children forming a small classroom setting? But that's off topic. Although some of the yeshivas may have left something to be desired at times, for the most part I'm very glad we chose each of the schools we did send our children to. Sure, kids go off the derech, but statistically, more children who did not have a Jewish education will intermarry then those who went to yeshivas will go off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86802222860876651672008-08-27T14:04:00.000-04:002008-08-27T14:04:00.000-04:00AHAVA GAYLE:""Judaism has survived for thousands o...AHAVA GAYLE:<BR/><BR/>""Judaism has survived for thousands of years without them, as someone above noted. Neither the world nor your kids are any different than they "used to be." There is nothing new under the sun.""<BR/><BR/>please read my comment to alex above (August 27, 2008 2:14 AM)<BR/><BR/>and then i'll ask you the same question i asked him (in reference to the absence of day schools 100 years ago): "how many orthodox jews that you know today had ancestors who lived here 100 years ago? where are all their descendants?"Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25837302776455203922008-08-27T12:49:00.000-04:002008-08-27T12:49:00.000-04:00that feeling that your kid is entitled to free col...<I>that feeling that your kid is entitled to free college education just because you're an observant Jew who chose to spend most of your resources on dayschool. What chutzpah! </I><BR/><BR/>Whoa, Ahavah! I don't know Charnie and I don't know you, but I don't think she feels that way. I think the post was really meant to vent and maybe see if readers had some ideas.SaraKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08053908720926177402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-8585689283832133162008-08-27T12:43:00.000-04:002008-08-27T12:43:00.000-04:00That's exactly my point - you made a choice and no...That's exactly my point - you made a choice and now you're whining about it, as if the rest of the world has some obligation to bend to your Rav's worldview. <BR/><BR/>Judaism has survived for thousands of years without them, as someone above noted. Neither the world nor your kids are any different than they "used to be." There is nothing new under the sun. <BR/><BR/>You could have homeschooled your kids yourself, or formed a homeschool cooperative, or chose afternoon religious classes, or private tutoring, or tutored your child yourself after secular studies were over for the day - you had a lot of choices, but you chose to go with the one you could least afford, the one that put your child's future vocational (in the broad sense of the word) education at risk. Do you think day-school takes the place of your example at home? The fact that all your friends are also doing it doesn't make it smart - and certainly doesn't make it acceptable to the admissions board of most colleges. Good intentions do not balance your budget, only planning for your future, living within your means, and not expecting money to be handed to you on a silver platter does that. <BR/><BR/>You want some college to give your kid a free education because you wanted your kids to go to a private day school - when millions of parents, even Jewish ones, have no such means? Where did you get the idea any college had an obligation to do this? Not saving for college doesn't make your kid entitled to a free education. If it worked like that, nobody would ever save. Obviously, parents who value their children's college education save for it. By choosing not to, you told the world - and the college admissions board - that you didn't think college was a priority. Now you want the college system to reward you for that attitude? <BR/><BR/>The best day-school in the world won't stop a kid from going off the derech if they feel neglected or ignored or misunderstood at home - as hundreds of cheredi dropouts prove every year. A day school isn't "God insurance." If you think so, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't expect the college admissions board to sympathize. What they see is someone who had enough means to send their kids to a private school for k-12, but now wants a handout for college. And they see it that way because that's the way it is.<BR/><BR/>This is one issue of several similar ones - the fact that we have been bamboozled to believe we must "keep up with the Goldbergs" or we are not good parents or good Jews. And then, having faithfully poured out every cent we have toward keeping up with the Goldbergs, we find out that real life has different priorities, that Hashem is not going to drop money out of the thin blue air to pay for things we should have been saving for, or to pay the credit cards and consumer loans and home equity lines and mortgages we couldn't afford to run up but did anyway, to pay for the weddings and benei mitzvot and private school all the other things we have been told we "have" to pay for - or else we're bad parents and bad Jews. <BR/><BR/>The fact is, griping about it won't help now. Only refusing to pretend the future will take care of itself, and living within our means will help now. At least you're not in danger of having yor home foreclosed or ruining your credit because of dayschool - like so many other people have been. You are in a very good position, all things considerd, and you're whining about it! That's what I can't sympathize with - that feeling that your kid is entitled to free college education just because you're an observant Jew who chose to spend most of your resources on dayschool. What chutzpah!Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81940787719405768052008-08-27T11:40:00.000-04:002008-08-27T11:40:00.000-04:00i'm not sure why being a rabbi lends qualities to ...<I>i'm not sure why being a rabbi lends qualities to being an administrator.</I><BR/><BR/>It doesn't! That was part of my point. It is, in fact, often the opposite because a Rabbi has more of a desire to learn than to administer.<BR/><BR/><I>come to think of it, there are plenty of women teaching limudei kodesh subjects and no one requires that they be rabbis.</I><BR/><BR/>This reminds me of last year. My eldest, a girl, found out that her limudei kodesh teacher was going to be a man. She was a little apprehensive at first with having a "boy teacher" after all the years of only having women teachers. But after a few days/weeks, we all (including my daughter) realized what a gem the Rabbi was. So far, he is the best teacher by far that our children have had. He sort of reminds me of my best teacher (also limudei kodesh) in elementary school, Mr. Ostrow, in 6'th grade (maybe 5'th or 7'th?) at Etz Chaim in Boro Park.<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53121052633189474392008-08-27T02:28:00.000-04:002008-08-27T02:28:00.000-04:00MARK:come to think of it, there are plenty of wome...MARK:<BR/><BR/>come to think of it, there are plenty of women teaching limude kodesh subjects and no one requires that they be rabbis.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-78122210423225400402008-08-27T02:25:00.000-04:002008-08-27T02:25:00.000-04:00MARK:"Certainly for limudei kodesh, a Rabbi is gen...MARK:<BR/><BR/>"Certainly for limudei kodesh, a Rabbi is generally more appropriate than a "Mr.", but sometimes the "Mr." is a better educator than the "Rabbi". And often the "Mr." is a better administrator than the "Rabbi".<BR/><BR/>i'm not sure why being a rabbi lends qualities to being an administrator.<BR/><BR/>as far as limudei kodesh teachers, i think it depends on the grade and the particular subject matter.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-26938283511819537952008-08-27T02:18:00.000-04:002008-08-27T02:18:00.000-04:00JEWCHICK:"Actually, that's not necessarily true. A...JEWCHICK:<BR/><BR/>"Actually, that's not necessarily true. At Columbia (and I'm sure other IVYs) if you get an A+ that's a 4.3 on your GPA. If you get an A+ at a CUNY or SUNY school, it's still just a 4. So the IVY GPAs are actually artificially inflated."<BR/><BR/>i know columbia is out of 4.3, but i don't think this really matters because (imho) the gap educational between columbia and cuny (i don't anything about suny) is more than just .3. in other words, a 4.3 at columbia is not still not the same as a 4.0 cunyLion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57370383783004295502008-08-27T02:14:00.000-04:002008-08-27T02:14:00.000-04:00ALEX:"Quite frankly, I had 10 years of public scho...ALEX:<BR/><BR/>"Quite frankly, I had 10 years of public school education . . . and still managed to marry a Jew . . ."<BR/><BR/>you do realize that it many parts of the country you are the exception<BR/><BR/>"The Jewish world is 3500 years old, and the first American day school is 100 years old . . ."<BR/><BR/>100 years ago york most children in new york did not get any type of jewish education. of those who did, the overwhelming majority did so in a supplementary fashion and not in a day school (of which there were only a tiny handful prior to wwII). now tell me this: how many orthodox jews that you know today had ancestors who lived here 100 years ago? where are all their descendants?<BR/><BR/>and no, i'm not saying that the day school system is the only reason for the vitality of contemporary orthodoxy (the five-day work week, the rise of multi-culturalism, etc. are also important factors), but i don't think a day school education should be dismissed so casually.<BR/><BR/><BR/>(as a historical side note, there were congregational day schools dating back to the colonial period and private day schools in 1830s-1850s, but these were finished off by the emerging public school system)Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-15693973511580522292008-08-26T23:49:00.000-04:002008-08-26T23:49:00.000-04:00I just want to be the anti- student loan contingen...I just want to be the anti- student loan contingency for a moment. Our story is scary, so hopefully it will scare someone out there off from taking out student loans.<BR/><BR/>My husband and I both went straight from expensive colleges to an expensive grad school and got a fantastically expensive graduate degree that does us NO good in the real world. We paid for all this with loans. So we started our marriage over $100 K in student loan debt. I wish someone had knocked us over the head and told us to work in the real world for a while before deciding about graduate school.<BR/><BR/>Ten years after graduating graduate school, we are 34 years old with two children and though we've made a small dent in my loans, haven't even TOUCHED the principal on my husband's loans in ten years---- over the past ten years when they weren't being deferred or in forbearance, we were only able to pay the interest. We're putting them in deferrment again now due to financial need. We have no retirement savings, have not bought (and will not buy) a house, moved cross country to live "out of town" in a place that isn't totally expensive, and will not be saving for our children's future.<BR/><BR/>We're HOPING to be able to pay yeshiva tuition by getting financial aid, but I certainly haven't ruled out homeschooling or public school.<BR/><BR/>We can purchase groceries, pay the rent for the roof over our head, and keep our utilities on, so we're considered rich in this world. But the amount of debt we owe is staggering.<BR/><BR/>Student loans would have been smart if we had chosen careers that make money. But we didn't. We both chose the field of education. So I left the field and went into sales, but now I'm at home with two babies..... and he stayed in the field and has recently taken an enormous paycut just to remain employed after he was let go from his position. He feels after ten years of teaching experience that all he knows how to do is teach, so how could he possibly do anything else.... but teaching will NEVER pay down the very student loans that gave him the degree that allows him (usually) to teach. I say usually, because ironically, he doesn't have a state teaching credential--- just a Masters. So the local public and private schools are turning him down right and left--- it will cost us another $20,000 to get him certified. For now, he's a special needs shadower working on an hourly wage.<BR/><BR/>When you take out student loans, you don't know how financially ludicrous your future will be. Be VERY cautious with those loans! They'll happily give you far more than you'll ever be able to repay.<BR/><BR/>My in laws who also have a ton of debt and no savings (they're both living on disability) said not to worry about the loans--- if we're still paying them down when we're 60, 65 years old, that's just fine. It makes me sick to my stomach to know that not only will we be paying down those loans then, but we also won't have been able to save.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-64601600183448756832008-08-26T22:25:00.000-04:002008-08-26T22:25:00.000-04:00Since this comment thread seems all over the place...Since this comment thread seems all over the place... <BR/>Charnie, your daughter went to non-MO schools and then (presumably) a non-MO seminary in Israel. If that's the case let me say clearly, unless you've opened your child's mind to the outside world your child has NO defense against the temptations of a secular college. It doesn't mean she will fail but very often it's the 'frum' students that are the first to fall. Make sure she comes home often...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37338131031734268422008-08-26T14:41:00.000-04:002008-08-26T14:41:00.000-04:00so are you against the proliferation of administra...<I>so are you against the proliferation of administrative positions or of administrative positions staffed by rabbis?</I><BR/><BR/>Both, but primarily the proliferation of administrators in general. It's not fair to the students, and particularly unfair to the teachers (because so much of the budget gets consumed on administration rather than direct classroom expenses, including teachers wages). When I went to school, we had one principal. That's it.<BR/><BR/><I>(as an aside, when i went to my mo day school there were plenty of male teachers and administrators who went by the simple title of "mr." what has happened that today semicha has become a requirement for positions that don't really require it?)</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I think this is happening more and more each year. It has its good points and its bad points, and I would prefer more balance. Certainly for limudei kodesh, a Rabbi is generally more appropriate than a "Mr.", but sometimes the "Mr." is a better educator than the "Rabbi". And often the "Mr." is a better administrator than the "Rabbi".<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85275200336714579122008-08-26T13:59:00.000-04:002008-08-26T13:59:00.000-04:00Ultimately, there is something wrong with a system...<I>Ultimately, there is something wrong with a system, be it college ed or yeshivas, that "punish" people for being married. </I><BR/><BR/>You aren't being punished for being married. You are being "punished" because you have chosen to spend the income of one spouse on pre-college tuition and luxuries like camp. <BR/><BR/>You chose to prioritize those over college. You obviously think it was worth it, but that doesn't change the fact that it was your choice.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-62881885931311355522008-08-26T11:18:00.000-04:002008-08-26T11:18:00.000-04:00Charnie, I second your sentiment that early Jewish...Charnie, I second your sentiment that early Jewish education is key to future generations remaining Jewish and frum. In America, public school educated Jews becoming BTs is by far the exception, not the rule. <BR/><BR/>I think the problem is that you want to have both the Jewish ideals of commitment to Torah and the American ideal of "follow your dream." We Jews don't have the luxury to follow our dreams to a super expensive college education, or, necessarily, to earn a living in the art world, in which only a select few talented people will have financial success.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-42926977447227394452008-08-26T10:52:00.000-04:002008-08-26T10:52:00.000-04:00One thing I neglected to mention about paying yesh...One thing I neglected to mention about paying yeshiva tuition was that I didn't have any special "in" with the board(s), although many board members are also members of the same shul as we are. It just involved sitting down with the administrators, being open and honest (bringing the checkbook to show them what our monthly expenses are), and devising alternate ways to make the payments.<BR/><BR/>Ultimately, there is something wrong with a system, be it college ed or yeshivas, that "punish" people for being married. I went back to work FT when my oldest children were 2 and 3. My salary primarily goes towards tuitions and camps, my husband's towards the bills. No one who knows us in any way would ever consider us extravagent, although we probably wouldn't be even if we had the means - it's just not our personalities.<BR/><BR/>After all, as it's brought down, "who is rich? One who is happy with what they have".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89807502297011466482008-08-26T10:42:00.000-04:002008-08-26T10:42:00.000-04:00Alex, there is no way to equate the value of Jewis...Alex, there is no way to equate the value of Jewish education. This is a person's soul, their reason for living! I'm a BT myself, who attended (what in those days) were A#1 NYC public schools.<BR/><BR/>The K-8 portion is almost pales in comparison with what I've seen from HS and post HS. <BR/><BR/>OK readers, take out your arrows. We did send this child to Israel. It wasn't done because the Schwartz's were doing it, but because we found a school so ideally suited to this child, and the experience has touched their life enormously. I've been known to refer to it as "the pre-art-college innoculation", and in many ways, it has been. This child's Yiddishkeit is very solid, and they'll be able to withstand the "temptations" of the secular world. BTW, they attended college as well as their Jewish studies while in Israel, which is how they've completed a full year of liberal arts requirements (they also attended summer courses in July back here in NYC).<BR/><BR/>There's a lot of bitchon involved here, I truly believe that if HKBH wants this child to pursue this educational tract, we'll somehow find a way! My goal, as stated in my original post, is just not to saddle all involved with tremendous loans. We may have to tap into some retirement savings, but it's money well spent, as it is an investment in their ability to eventually be self-sufficient.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19317967314779188352008-08-26T09:51:00.000-04:002008-08-26T09:51:00.000-04:00Welcome to the real world, where your ability to p...Welcome to the real world, where your ability to pay is determined on objective standard. You don't get special treatment because you're friendly with board members. While you loved to special treatment at the Yeshiva, it also meant that other people didn't get special treatment because they didn't have the right connections.<BR/><BR/>Every "perk" you get costs money somehow, and not criticizing you for getting ones you need, but the corrupt Yeshiva financing system is part of what is strangling the communities.<BR/><BR/>That said, you prioritized Elementary Jewish education over college, that has consequences. If you put your kids into public school for K-3, and taught them the basics in Judaics (you went to a RW school, so I assume they didn't learn conversational Hebrew at a fluency level, which is more difficult to self teach) at home, that tuition money, invested over the past 15 years, would probably have funded 4 years of college.<BR/><BR/>If K-3 religious education is more important than college, you made the right call, but you are seeing the consequences of a broken set of priorities.<BR/><BR/>Quite frankly, I had 10 years of public school education, 3 years of private school, an elite college education (and later grad school), and still managed to marry a Jew, embrace religion (grew up with none), and provide for my family.<BR/><BR/>The Jewish world is 3500 years old, and the first American day school is 100 years old... the Jewish world predated our experiment with Yeshiva/Day School, and it will no doubt postdate it as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-48704112539502794282008-08-26T09:07:00.000-04:002008-08-26T09:07:00.000-04:00When I got to the office this morning, there were ...When I got to the office this morning, there were over 20 comments to read through, so I'll try to reply to just a few issues raised.<BR/><BR/>My child is not at all lazy, and has every intention of working. It was our hope that work/study would be our "lifeline", but again, our salaries take us out of the range that qualifies. However, the admissions office has told me that they do hire students, and this is definitely a path we will pursue. Having registered already, this child's schedule, at least for this semester, will not allow them a lot of free time to pursue other jobs.<BR/><BR/>For students who want to pursue engineering, for example, MIT is the place they want to go. Ditto with this school, for this field (graphic design/illustration). And I've had it confirmed by alumni of various schools that this school, even as undergrad, made a big difference of their resumes. And also, my research in this field was that if the graduate can get a job with an American company in Israel, they can do quite a bit better then if they worked for an Israeli company.<BR/><BR/>To those who caught it, yes, the child did not attend a MO dayschool or HS.<BR/><BR/>The reason I posted this wasn't to much to look for handouts, but to emphasize how differently college finance offices work as compared to yeshiva administrators. B"H, for the most part we've been able to pay full tuition, as long as it was done "creatively". Just yesterday I negotiated terms with my youngest child's mesivta. They've agreed to allow me to make more payments, which means, each is smaller and therefore, doesn't conflict with paying the mortgage, etc., and can be spread over 12 months. Any school I've ever been involved with also knows that they can always call on me to help out, I've served on PA's, and in my previous stint with this mesivta (with an older child), I helped them with fund raising for the dinner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-65200479886030984892008-08-26T08:51:00.000-04:002008-08-26T08:51:00.000-04:00Lion of Zion: "even if both candidates have the id...Lion of Zion: "even if both candidates have the identical GPA, the student at the prestige school probably worked harder for that gpa."<BR/><BR/>Actually, that's not necessarily true. At Columbia (and I'm sure other IVYs) if you get an A+ that's a 4.3 on your GPA. If you get an A+ at a CUNY or SUNY school, it's still just a 4. So the IVY GPAs are actually artificially inflated.jewchickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06702122944625696072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-77191971941636072922008-08-26T06:42:00.000-04:002008-08-26T06:42:00.000-04:00"as an aside, when i went to my mo day school ther..."as an aside, when i went to my mo day school there were plenty of male teachers and administrators who went by the simple title of "mr." what has happened that today semicha has become a requirement for positions that don't really require it?"<BR/><BR/>For the various specifically Jewish subjects/an assistant principal for those subjects, it's an extra qualification (one that is unfortunately available in abundance- think of it like a Masters or a readily available PhD). For principals it's a sign of "hey, this school is Jewish"- something that has become more and more necessary as MO parents struggle with whether or not to put in the money or just send their kids to public schools.<BR/><BR/>As for non-MO schools, it's something like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval for pretty much all subjects- "we have to offer history and English, but the history teachers won't talk about whether or not Kriyat Yam Suf really happenned and the English teachers won't read anything inappropriate."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-31294872450463560532008-08-26T02:59:00.000-04:002008-08-26T02:59:00.000-04:00mike s. said what I was thinking, but IMO it bears...mike s. said what I was thinking, but IMO it bears repeating--why not look for a program in Israel? Your child wants to live in Israel anyway. If s/he studies in the US, the result will be heavy student loan debt that will be nearly impossible to repay on an Israeli salary, and it's likely your child's Hebrew won't be at the level needed for the Israeli job market. If, OTOH, s/he makes aliya now, the government will pay university tuition, and your child wll have his/her years of study to work on Hebrew and get it to the necessary level. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure there are reasons you picked this particular school over Betzalel or another Israeli program, but think about it, is it really worth an extra $80,000-100,000 for that particular program, when your child could get a decent art education for free? <BR/><BR/>If it is really worth it, it sounds like you have no choice but to take out loans. If it's your child who's considering taking out loans and not you, make sure s/he understands the long term ramifications of that decision, especially vis-a-vis aliya. Maybe s/he could talk to graduates of the school to see what the average salary is and therefore how quickly college loans could be paid off, or could even contact Israeli employers and see if they would be eager to hire graduates from this school, and if so, at what starting salary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80843573775878752852008-08-26T01:05:00.000-04:002008-08-26T01:05:00.000-04:00mark:so are you against the proliferation of admin...mark:<BR/><BR/>so are you against the proliferation of administrative positions or of administrative positions staffed by rabbis?<BR/><BR/>(as an aside, when i went to my mo day school there were plenty of male teachers and administrators who went by the simple title of "mr." what has happened that today semicha has become a requirement for positions that don't really require it?)Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-48199069436959302072008-08-26T00:38:00.000-04:002008-08-26T00:38:00.000-04:00my impression is that most school and pulpit rabbi...<I>my impression is that most school and pulpit rabbis are not overpaid</I><BR/><BR/>I think that for the most part they are not overpaid. HOWEVER, there are definitely <B>too many of them</B> ("them" in this case meaning administrators many of whom are Rabbis). I (with many of you) have discussed this many times here on the blog.<BR/><BR/>For example, I've heard that Hillel, one of the schools here in South Florida, even has an administrator (a Rabbi) in charge of "Kiruv". This is along with various administrators such as head of school (another Rabbi), principal of lower school (another Rabbi), and principal of middle school (another Rabbi). And there are other administrators as well.<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com