tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post2298370530034380404..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Co-operatives and HybridsOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86011129838960959262010-02-25T15:37:46.615-05:002010-02-25T15:37:46.615-05:00Sorry, forgot to provide a link for Frustrated - h...Sorry, forgot to provide a link for Frustrated - http://oceansofjoy.wordpress.com.Avivah @ Oceans of Joyhttp://oceansofjoy.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-74698268340049414642010-02-25T15:36:34.272-05:002010-02-25T15:36:34.272-05:00Frustrated - as a veteran homeschooler (homeschool...Frustrated - as a veteran homeschooler (homeschooling for ten years with now nine children), I'd suggest you drop the goal of starting a coop if all you want is to homeschool your kids. It's a lot more complicated than just homeschooling your kids yourself.<br /><br />The social aspect is a straw man; there are other options than just school friends, and more importantly, there are other ways to think about the issue of socialization. By that I mean that the idea that lots of time with peers is healthy and shold be replicated by those outside of the school system needs to be challenged. Naturally limiting this as homeschoolers will be to actually be to your/your children's advantage. <br /><br />As far as having patience, it will take a lot of patience to put something like a coop together with disparate ideas of how to form one, what the goals are, etc. People often find that once they have their kids home all day and are in a good groove, they need less patience than they expected because their children are happier and more relaxed. <br /><br />Feel free to contact me with questions; I've also written extensively on my blog about homeschooling.Avivah @ Oceans of Joynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90919832101734966522010-02-23T13:20:45.246-05:002010-02-23T13:20:45.246-05:00I was in a co-op 'school' of homeschooling...I was in a co-op 'school' of homeschooling families for one year and I also took a co-op 'course' later on; I strongly favour the model of taking individual courses for several reasons:<br />1. In a school co-op situation you run into issues of what happens if parents don't have time to teach a course? In my school they charged those students tuition. When the parents couldn't pay, which did happen, the student was kicked out. Would you be willing to do that? Would you rather allow children to rely on the charity of other families willing to essentially educate the child without any reciprocity? Would there be a limit to how many kids could rely on this sort of charity? Hard questions.<br />2. Although the co-op was based on a mutual belief system eventually one or two individuals 'took over' and began running things their way, for the benefit of their children and not necessarily for the other students. All parents want the best situation and environment for their children, but a successful co-op environment requires compromise. If you aren't willing to compromise, a co-op 'school' is NOT a good match! If compromise is not a problem, then all the parents need to have equal say, and guidelines need to be set forth at the beginning of the endeavor, upheld, and revisited as new situation arise. This requires a lot of extra time on the part of the parents, but it is needed to make sure that you don't wind up with people who wind up 'handling everything' and eventually running everything without oversight. <br />3. You will have negative behaviour! You will have bullying and ostracizing, curiosity about sex and drugs, and attitude problems. The good thing about a co-op is if the parents are all working together and diligent than any and all parents can step in to correct negative behaviour throughout the day. The downside is if parents take the attitude that 'it isn't my kid!' because in a small co-op environment peer pressure is even more powerful, in my experience, than in the larger public school setting and negative behaviour spreads FAST.<br />4. On the other hand, you do get a network of families working together and your kids get a group of peers who 'get it' and who they can work with. Of course, the individual class set-up offers this as well.<br /><br />After leaving the co-op I took a rhetoric course with a fantastic educator and homeschooling mom. She had 3 levels of the class, we met once a week and it was limited to 8 students (that was all that fit at her dining room table). <br />1. The small size and focused work enabled us to row together as a group and we learned a lot about interpersonal communication, humor, and appropriate behaviour (we were teenagers; we could be pretty aggravating)<br />2. If a student was acting up, not doing the work, or their parent wasn't paying the fees, she could just send them home. She didn't have to put up with the aggravation because she wasn't in the school classroom setting.<br />3. While the cost of the course was quite reasonable, paying for several of these courses can quickly become expensive, which is where the co-op school is better. However, there was also a network of different parents teaching different courses, and these parents could 'swap' classes with each other rather than paying for the course, aside from materials fees (you teach Biology, I'll teach gymnastics). This worked really well for the students who could have a flexible schedule.<br /><br />Either situation can be extremely beneficial, just keep in mind that a 'school' set up takes a lot more work and emotion than it first appears. Based on my own experience I will be looking for individual classes for my kids as they get older, rather than tie us to a formal schooling setting.navahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14605633695673404777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14637359776999954972010-02-23T11:13:11.956-05:002010-02-23T11:13:11.956-05:00Frustrated, if you are interested in co-ops and hy...Frustrated, if you are interested in co-ops and hybrid homeschooling, that means your children would have a "chevra", right? You are not homeschooling by yourself. You say there are other families interested in homeschooling in your community. If several families in your community want to homeschool, you can make playgroups after each family's school day is over. Then the so-called socialization problem is solved. Would you rally want your children to socialize in school -- that is what gets them in trouble (talking in class, playing during school time, and the like)! :)<br /><br />Frum children getting home at 4pm is one of the many problems you can solve by opting out of the system. If they stay in school, how much time do they get to socialize in the upper grades anyways?Yaelhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/jewishorthodoxandhomeschooling/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39257303480468017322010-02-22T19:20:08.349-05:002010-02-22T19:20:08.349-05:00Yaela, no one is home to socialize with "earl...Yaela, no one is home to socialize with "early" in the afternoons if we don't school with a group. And when the kids do get home after 4pm, there's homework, supper, and bedtime -- not much time to socialize.frustratednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-35510941443057771452010-02-22T15:58:51.186-05:002010-02-22T15:58:51.186-05:00Here are the quick ones I can rattle off: ..... A...Here are the quick ones I can rattle off: ..... Arizona, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Florida (not all areas) , California (not all areas), South Carolina, Washington, Nevada, Idaho, Minnesota, Kansas, Texas, Wyoming, Colorado, Louisiana<br /><br />Efforts are under way to push into other states.Joshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60789708705480718122010-02-22T14:52:57.755-05:002010-02-22T14:52:57.755-05:00Thank you Josh. I nabbed the language from the PS...Thank you Josh. I nabbed the language from the PSA from the Yeshiva itself: see here http://orthonomics.blogspot.com/2009/09/public-service-annoucement-affordable.html. <br /><br />The LA Yeshiva uses a virtual program provided by the state. The learning environment is supervised by the Yeshiva.<br /><br /><br />Josh-What states now offer free virtual schooling? Thanks.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-55950372977203287662010-02-22T14:39:13.395-05:002010-02-22T14:39:13.395-05:00Hi SL,
Regarding the Los Angeles yeshiva, this is...Hi SL,<br /><br />Regarding the Los Angeles yeshiva, this is not "supervised homeschooling" through a charter school program. This form of schooling, virtual schooling, is considered full time public school and the curriculum and program is provided by a virtual charter school which supervised by a school district. While the learning could be done from home, it should not be confused with homeschooling.<br /><br />BTW, a Yeshiva in Myrtle Beach has a similar program and it serves middle school as well as high school.<br /><br />Lastly, parents in many states can take advantage of FREE secular options like these. As far as the Limudei Kodesh goes, Ahava Gayle seems to have some good suggestions.<br /><br />If readers want to pick my brain to find out if FREE virtual charter schooling is available in their respective states, they can email me at vso613 at yahoo.com<br /><br />JoshJoshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-4578982014092950022010-02-22T14:14:08.597-05:002010-02-22T14:14:08.597-05:00Frustrated, so why don't you homeschool your k...Frustrated, so why don't you homeschool your kids and swap informal teaching with another parent in topics you are not comfortable with? Would that break the law in NY? <br /><br />Most co-ops in the homeschooling world have parents teaching different subjects or running the nursery in exchange for discounts in the tuition. There is at least one how to make a co-op book/coach in the homeschooling world. I would have to do some digging but I could find a title if someone needed. <br /><br />As far as the socializing, your school day will be done much sooner, so you could homeschool and then socialize over fun stuff in the afternoons -- that's what we do. As for not having patience, it is not really that bad (and that come from someone with little patience!).YaelaFrumHomeschoolerhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/jewishorthodoxandhomeschooling/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14519357463909481042010-02-21T22:26:59.018-05:002010-02-21T22:26:59.018-05:00We wanted to homeschool our kids, in different gra...We wanted to homeschool our kids, in different grades, because we aren't happy with the area schools. <br /><br />We thought that having a handful of kids for each of 2 or 3 grades, and hiring experienced teachers, would solve the problems of 1) socializing and 2) parents not having patience to teach. But we had no intention of starting a whole school.frustratednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41207892183067560682010-02-21T20:45:03.690-05:002010-02-21T20:45:03.690-05:00Frustrated -
The point of a co-op is to not hire...Frustrated - <br /><br />The point of a co-op is to not hire people, but to have the parents provide most of the instruction at no charge. You are correct in that hiring tutors for the classes puts you outside of the homeschool framework and into a lot of intrusiveness where the local governments are concerned. Most homes will likely not qualify for the students to meet in under those conditions meaning greatly increased expenses, pretty much negating the point of the co-op. You need to think carefully before you proceed if there are not enough parents who are actually willing to do the teaching in your group.Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-24870081651134417232010-02-21T00:59:26.423-05:002010-02-21T00:59:26.423-05:00From NYHEN.org (State Education Dept. Homeschoolin...From NYHEN.org (State Education Dept. Homeschooling Q&A:<br />"Parents providing home instruction to their children may arrange to have their children instructed in a group situation for particular subjects but not for a majority of the home instruction program. <b>Where groups of parents organize to provide group instruction by a tutor for a majority of the instructional program, they are operating a nonpublic school and are no longer providing home instruction.</b> Substantial equivalency of a nonpublic school program is not determined pursuant to Section 100.10 of the Regulations of the Commissioner."<br /><br />A further search found this link, about starting a new nonpublic school:<br />http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/nonpub/personsinterestedinstartinganewschool<br />"As a first step, we recommend that you inform the superintendent of schools in the district in which the school is to be located of your intention to establish a school. When plans are firm, you or the administrator of the new school should meet with the local superintendent of schools and provide the following items:<br /><br /> * a certificate of occupancy, health inspection report or fire inspection report, depending on local requirements;<br /> * a copy of the school calendar for the coming year;<br /> * the enrollment at each grade level;<br /> * the names and addresses of students who will be attending the school;<br /> * a list of the courses and subjects which will be offered in the school;<br /> * and a description of the testing program which will be administered by the school."<br /><br />My friend and I are planning to talk to a superintendent in the near future.frustratednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29227551850156647862010-02-20T22:57:52.097-05:002010-02-20T22:57:52.097-05:00Thank you frustrated. Can you help share what is ...Thank you frustrated. Can you help share what is involved in terms of any costs and licensing?Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-22409138126501901852010-02-20T22:33:17.077-05:002010-02-20T22:33:17.077-05:00I was looking into this recently and found out tha...I was looking into this recently and found out that in New York, hiring a tutor for a group of kids is considered opening a non-public school, and not a homeschooling co-op.frustratednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-74643246161549749722010-02-20T13:57:19.511-05:002010-02-20T13:57:19.511-05:00hi
side note - i also get these posts in oriental ...hi<br />side note - i also get these posts in oriental characters. <br />what are they?<br /><br />reader and sometime anon commenter<br />bethamiBethamihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12568587015037601942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-78451843321816966432010-02-20T09:23:50.234-05:002010-02-20T09:23:50.234-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.オテモヤンhttp://e-nixi.com/blog/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-9288518379638226772010-02-19T16:17:59.719-05:002010-02-19T16:17:59.719-05:00Ahavah Gayle-Fantastic comment. I will repost it ...Ahavah Gayle-Fantastic comment. I will repost it soon. This is exactly the type of advice that one of the parents is looking for.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-35247446400783219452010-02-19T16:11:40.220-05:002010-02-19T16:11:40.220-05:00The first difficulties are related to the small nu...The first difficulties are related to the small number of families who join in the early days - usually a "class" will have to be two or maybe even three grades together until enough families join. The first year of operation was quite chaotic because the growth was sporadic came in fits and starts and sometimes it was necessary to shuffle kids around or break a 2 or 3 class group into a 1 or 2 class group in the middle of a term. As long as the group has chosen a curriculum and sticks with it, though, this problem is not harmful to the children's studies, just somewhat annoying - and it should solve itself as the membership in the group stabilizes, though this may not occur until the second (or third) year.<br /><br />I highly recommend a four-quarter schedule but some parents still like the 2 or 3 semesters with a long summer vacation standard. If the group tries one and decides to switch to the other, there can be a bit of "scrunching" or "stretching" of the curriculum to make the transition, but again, as long as everybody's on the same page (figuratively speaking) you can try one and then switch to the other if it doesn't work.<br /><br />Something that probably won't be a problem in communities with large numbers of observant families who want to homeschool is when most of the kids "age out" and go off to trade school or college. In small groups with a fairly fixed group of participants, the number of kids will dwindle until you have the "early days" problem in reverse - downsizing and combining until the group eventually disbands. Keep this in mind as an inevitable result, something to plan for, if your group stays small.<br /><br />If possible, arrange with a nearby yeshiva or kollel for their members to get "teaching credits" - experience for a grade/credit - if they donate their time each day or seek to teach the co-op kids their Hebrew and Torah lessons for free (or a very, very small fee). <br /><br />Have a parent or perhaps the local federation office offer a space for a textbook/materials swap & storage, each grade handing down their books to the upcoming class. That way only workbooks need to be replaced annually. You might try and find a sponsor or organization that will give you a grant for the first set of books for each grade, but don't go forward if that's the ONLY plan. Parents may have to buy all the textbooks for the first couple of years. <br /><br />For kids to go on to college, they must regularly take whatever state achievement tests your state requires on the state's regular basis. There are also periodic national exams the kids must take if your program is to be acceptable when they apply to colleges. These can be done at an independent testing agency or proctored by independent observers. <br /><br />Don't try and make a rigid dayschool-like schedule. Be flexible and creative. Find out what resources are available in your community and don't be afraid to use them - libraries, museums, children's theaters, art and craft programs, youth orchestras, sports programs, free lectures, concerts or films or symposiums on current events at the local universities, etc. <br /><br />Those are a few thoughts off the top of my head. There's really no one-size-fits-all way to do this - you have to adapt to the resources available, "in-house" and out in the community, and the skill sets of the volunteers, and the particular ages and learning styles of the kids involved. The best advice is just to NOT have a pre-conceived idea of how things "should" be arranged - do what works, not what a big dayschool does. When you don't have "economies of scale" you have to be lean and adaptable. <br /><br />Shalom.Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-59763964130627725732010-02-19T11:47:05.740-05:002010-02-19T11:47:05.740-05:00Thanks.Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com