tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post2519634340771448754..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19759428707946960302017-06-05T10:08:37.176-04:002017-06-05T10:08:37.176-04:00Get all the best alcoholic drinks on Duty Free Dep...Get all the best alcoholic drinks on <b><a href="http://spirits.syntaxlinks.com/r/DutyFreeDepot" rel="nofollow">Duty Free Depot</a>!</b><br /><br />All the popular brand name drinks for <b>unbeatable discounted price tags.</b>Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63508293743934082802010-01-19T09:48:22.298-05:002010-01-19T09:48:22.298-05:00People will misread your argument if they feel it ...People will misread your argument if they feel it goes against their own. I didn't take away from your piece that you were advocating everyone sending their children to public school just to save money. I saw it as a realistic assessment of the financial situation in light of limited funds and rising tuition costs. Personally, I would not opt for public school. But, honestly, I believe that kids can get a perfectly good (possibly even better than when enrolled in a yeshiva or day school) Jewish education in a homeschooling or cooperative schooling setup. The idea of taking charge of one's child's education is key here. A parent cannot abdicate that responsibility even when shelling out $20,000 a year per child.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-5134782214403054712010-01-17T23:39:53.366-05:002010-01-17T23:39:53.366-05:00LoZ- They don't. I know of a few schools wher...LoZ- They don't. I know of a few schools where they do take those tests (Flatbush is one of them), but it's never been something our administration has any interest in, and it's not something we particularly care to mold our curriculum around. Combine that with the variety of schools our students end up at (YU isn't unusual, per se, but it also isn't the dominant choice by any means), and our decision not to do so seems reasonable.JLanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14815395805958892284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-38596108112937107202010-01-17T19:59:44.870-05:002010-01-17T19:59:44.870-05:00JLAN:
do your students take the jewish history &q...JLAN:<br /><br />do your students take the jewish history "ap" exams administed by YU? if yes, what is the success rate?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-83733491980939329682010-01-17T15:52:54.642-05:002010-01-17T15:52:54.642-05:00Commenter Abbi, I've never suggested that I wa...Commenter Abbi, I've never suggested that I want a bare bones, no frills education for my children. I have suggested that you could do that for $6500-$8000. I have also said that I do NOT want to pay $15,000 for a $7,500 education because our schools only collect 50% of tuition.<br /><br />Ramaz is priced competitively with secular prep schools in the area, right? Our Jewish schools are priced 25% cheaper than the prep schools, 33% more than the Catholic schools, and resulting in kids that if they leave for public school are behind grade level.<br /><br />I don't want my kids in a crappy school. However, if you are charging what you charge, offer a great education. I'm NOT interested in offer paying to subsidize others getting a private school education.<br /><br />The Day Schools are NOT reasonably priced for what they offer.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19543176903783655012010-01-17T13:32:22.623-05:002010-01-17T13:32:22.623-05:00Al, you don't get it. If you want that kind of...Al, you don't get it. If you want that kind of creative, higher level critical thinking going into your kids' Jewish/secular history curriculum, you have to pay price. You can't expect bare bones, rock bottom tuitions and excellent, creative, stimulating curriculum. <br /><br />I also had an excellent joint Jewish/Secular history course for my first three years of high school at Ramaz taught and developed by a high level Phd. So, no wonder it costs a fortune to go there!Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86150962553454876022010-01-15T16:39:34.831-05:002010-01-15T16:39:34.831-05:00JLan, good to know that there is something up ther...JLan, good to know that there is something up there... just frustrated that there isn't a school like that in greater Miami.<br /><br />I find the number of Jews who don't know what was going on in the world and therefore what was being borrowed back and forth sad... and a little scary...Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-62994214808647597772010-01-15T15:50:29.956-05:002010-01-15T15:50:29.956-05:00"I'd have 1.5 hours of social studies and..."I'd have 1.5 hours of social studies and have World History AND Jewish History covered."<br /><br />I teach a combined World (really Western for the most part) and Jewish history curriculum at an MO day school, with 6.5 periods/week (instead of the standard for our school, which is 4.5 periods/week per class). So Rambam gets tossed into the context of Islam and the Jews under Islam, with some comparisons to Islamic scholars and references back to Aristotle's doctrine of substance and accident, which we covered in Greek history. Another example of the links would be 19th c. Judaism, where we do a quick survey of Western Jewish thinkers (Spinoza, Mendelssohn, Geiger, Frankel, R' Hirsch, and the Chatam Sopher) after we've done Enlightenment thinking, as all are part of it or reacting to it.<br /><br />Of course, this school is also one of the worst offenders in the "tuition higher than the Burj Dubai" categories, so I'm not sure that it helps.JLanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14815395805958892284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37724706690254036412010-01-15T14:35:02.079-05:002010-01-15T14:35:02.079-05:00HF, that's my HOPE with the charter school. T...HF, that's my HOPE with the charter school. They can't teach "religion," so no spirituality, Halacha, etc., but language and culture are fine and on the table. The more they push to make the school more "Jewish," the more they'll find a way to incorporate Judaism into the subject matter.<br /><br />I'd like less Yeshiva, more Jewish Prep School... and I mean Yeshiva as in, modeled after nineteenth century Jewish education from Eastern Europe, that's NOT how I would impart Mesorah to my children, that's NOT how my family did it, and that is WHY I am hopeful for the Charter.<br /><br />The Charter's Judaics program is NOT Yeshivish, but deals a lot with "Meta" Jewish stuff, like "why be Jewish" and the "rituals" of Judaism. While older students may need more, that's an area that I think our existing schools are lacking in, because they just kind of assume it. If kids knew a few fewer Rashis and a few more reasons "Why be Jewish," we might have a lower Off the Derech rate (or again we might not).<br /><br />BTW, If you're not familiar with the concept of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss" rel="nofollow">Deadweight Loss</a>, please try to research the matter. My concern with our economic manipulation is that there is a LOT of it, and I think that that is the fundamental flaw in Orthodox Jewish Economics.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-52827540225492509062010-01-15T13:50:55.186-05:002010-01-15T13:50:55.186-05:00AL, sign me up. I recomend you read the article I ...AL, sign me up. I recomend you read the article I quoted above. If you e-mail me I can send it to you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-43283530397426721762010-01-15T13:37:02.910-05:002010-01-15T13:37:02.910-05:00JS, I think HF's story is awesome, and the thi...JS, I think HF's story is awesome, and the thing most lacking in the Jewish education system...<br /><br />However, I'd rebalance what is taught when. I think that 40% of the "Judaic curriculum" is filler... we decided that it must be "dual curriculum" with half-and-half days, and when we run out of material, we're done.<br /><br />If I were made Dean of Day Schools, I would scrap "dual curriculum" and create a "curriculum" that is modern and Jewish, which would include secular subjects with a Jewish basis, but I'd also include not Jewish sources and there impact on Jewish thought.<br /><br />To pretend RAMBAM wasn't impacted by Greek Logic and Astronomy requires redacting a chunk of his attempts to reconcile it with Torah.<br /><br />I'd have 1.5 hours of social studies and have World History AND Jewish History covered. I would have Hebrew as a language taught like we teach English with a focus on grammar and literature, NOT as a foreign language, with an attempt at REAL immersion (teaching Math and electives in Hebrew, for example).<br /><br />I'd guess you'd end up around 33: Raw Jewish subjects, 50% secular (to cover everything), and 17% kind of hybrid, where it is a secular subject area but covers Jewish thoughts in there... i.e. If you run an Ethics elective that uses Western Philosophers, you could bring Jewish Philosophers and Pirkei Avot, so increase the house by a third and cover more material.<br /><br />That's how I would design a Jewish school.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25208331089830548112010-01-15T13:25:06.337-05:002010-01-15T13:25:06.337-05:00JS, OK, personal preference. There was an article ...JS, OK, personal preference. There was an article in the last Meorot journal by rivkah kahan the principal of Maayanot, I recomend you read it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-31235884261492911672010-01-15T13:11:55.413-05:002010-01-15T13:11:55.413-05:00HF,
I have to disagree with your last point. Per...HF,<br /><br />I have to disagree with your last point. Personally, I don't want my kid's English teacher basing lessons around the Hebrew/Religious calendar. It's just now what I think a secular education should be about in the same way I wouldn't want my kid's science teacher teaching evolution alongside Hashem created the world, etc.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-18464563991182077422010-01-15T12:24:16.513-05:002010-01-15T12:24:16.513-05:00SL, I have no problem with these models, in fact I...SL, I have no problem with these models, in fact I think they would probably work better than many of our yeshivos, but until these models are set up I think we need another option. A Co-op is a great idea as is homeschooling (although I am not sure if these will work for every family) cradle to grave education might not be the best way but my main point is that I see first hand that my kids get so much for being in a yeshiva setting the entire day. It is the ideal torah umada model. For me it teaches them that everything they do, from limudei kodesh through limudei chol, all comes back to kedusha. As an example, my son's non jewish, first grade english teacher sent home a science project dealing with tu b'shvat. I hate to go off on a tangent here but to me these things are so improtant to their religious development that until I can find something to take the place of the current system I am going to continue to go with it. The financial model might be broken, but I do not think the educational one is (at least not for us).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34463316991389623952010-01-15T12:11:01.459-05:002010-01-15T12:11:01.459-05:00Honestly Frum-how about I have you answer some que...Honestly Frum-how about I have you answer some questions so we stop going in circles. <br /><br />What is so terrible about homeschooling or co-operatives, especially in the lower grades? What would be so terrible about helping to provide parents who are willing to take a greater stake in their children's education with some resources to do so? Why must cradle to grave education in established institutions be the only answer?Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-12223986907670427432010-01-15T11:42:31.593-05:002010-01-15T11:42:31.593-05:00Miami Al,
"the recent call for keeping more a...Miami Al,<br />"the recent call for keeping more and more of Tzedakah in the communities, the call for excluding people coming into our communities to fund raise, these are all attempts to limit Tzedakah until the "schools are funded." Perhaps in your community but not in mine. <br /><br />Keeping tzedaka money in the community here means not only funding for the schools but also for our Ezras Achim/Bikur Cholim, for our Hatzalah, for our Kosher food pantry, for our neighbors and families in need. It means raising funds for the little one who got cancer and his parents are drowning financially. It means taking care of our neighbors who are out of work through no fault of their own and need us. In the New York area those who are coming into our communities from outside to fundraise are doing so for yeshivas outside of our area more than any other type of tzedaka. The majority of these mishaluchim are not coming to raise funds for feeding the poor. Those requests come in by mail or phone for the most part.<br /><br />Donations to tzedaka organizations are down and the main reason is not that schools have to be funded first. They are down because people just plain don't have the same amount of money that they used to have and their families and the concerns of their families come first.<br /><br />Please also keep this in mind--a lot of people are looking at tzedaka organizations with the same eagle eye that they are now looking at yeshivas with. For far too long we have had such organizations, both national and local, that have been poorly run and with far too much overhead. Monies donated to these organizations don't all go to fund the actual cause. There is a huge amount of over duplication. With finances tight people are also looking to donate to those organizations that are the best run and with the least amount of overhead.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63465673204449354012010-01-15T11:40:30.757-05:002010-01-15T11:40:30.757-05:00tesyaa, agreed but I fell like our schools have be...tesyaa, agreed but I fell like our schools have been setup like this. So we need to work with the existing model until such a time that it changes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37758857317165322842010-01-15T11:39:21.710-05:002010-01-15T11:39:21.710-05:00Shut down CAJE immediately and things get better.
...Shut down CAJE immediately and things get better.<br /><br />You say there is no uniformity, but if you stray outside CAJE guidelines, you don't get CAJE contributions to the 401(k) and health care, so you have to stay in their guidelines.<br /><br />Federation dollars also come with strings attached.<br /><br />The decisions by the schools are more correlated than you think, since the global communal organizations encourage the bad behavior.<br /><br />And you're wrong on the 15%. Again, look at the bad debt line, where they give $10k in scholarship and demand $10k more than a family can pay and let the family not pay $10k. So they gave $20k in scholarship but called it $10k.<br /><br />The problem is MUCH bigger than you think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-55738870157892507852010-01-15T11:34:49.785-05:002010-01-15T11:34:49.785-05:00there are others that will pay extra out of their ...<i>there are others that will pay extra out of their own pockets to make sure that no one else’s child needs to go to public school for economic reasons</i><br /><br />"Economic reasons" is the sticking point. Who determines what these are? It comes down to needs and wants, in most cases. SL is unique, I think, in that she chooses to live within her means, save for retirement, and not expect anyone to foot the bill for her. Most people, as long as they are convinced that "someone else" will help foot the bill, will not make the most wise economic choices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-68986039365449167562010-01-15T11:29:24.466-05:002010-01-15T11:29:24.466-05:00I think the difference in the conversation boils d...I think the difference in the conversation boils down to this. I see Yeshiva education is a must, not a right, not a privilege, but a must in order for Orthodoxy to survive. I recognize just as much as everybody else that the costs have gotten out of control and that the system needs total overhaul and reform. Miami Al, you say that <i>If you change the perverse incentives, the situation will get much better VERY quickly.</i> Which perverse incentives are you talking about? Teachers pay? There is no uniformity on this issue, every school has their own structure (maybe there should be some). The scholarship and funding model? I also agree that it is broken and that the entire yeshiva funding model needs to go from a parental focused one to a communal focused one. Taking the scholarship burden off of the rest of the parent body in most cases only brings the cost down by around 10-15%, now although this is nothing to sneeze at it is but a dent in the problem. Much more fundamental changes need to be made across the board but until said changes are made there are people in the community who are wiling to struggle to make sure their kids are in Yeshiva and there are others that will pay extra out of their own pockets to make sure that no one else’s child needs to go to public school for economic reasons. Your and SL arguments are good and I see both of your reasoning but I think that we are going back and forth over personal hashkafot and the conversation is going to continue in a circular motion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-84062046170800861202010-01-15T10:48:32.201-05:002010-01-15T10:48:32.201-05:00The problem with the line of thinking is that yesh...<i>The problem with the line of thinking is that yeshiva is the be all and end all of Jewish education, that without yeshiva we'd all give up frumkeit in a heartbeat. It's simply not true.</i><br /><br />Agree 100%. People point to the early part of the 20th century as proof that children from "frum" immigrant homes became non-observant because they went to public school. First of all, many children from those generations who went to yeshiva (e.g. Torah Vodaas) also became nonobservant. Second of all, many of their homes, although nominally shomer shabbos, were not deeply committed to Torah, unfortunately. (As Rabbi Wein describes it: their frumkeit was "a mile wide and an inch deep"). And although we have an economic crisis today, it can't be compared to the Depression era. There are a million reasons why we can't extrapolate from what happened 60-100 years ago to today's world.<br /><br />And there are plenty of "frum" children today in both the MO and RW world who go to yeshivot their whole lives and become nonobservant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-68879723034336952342010-01-15T10:41:24.427-05:002010-01-15T10:41:24.427-05:00The problem with the line of thinking is that yesh...The problem with the line of thinking is that yeshiva is the be all and end all of Jewish education, that without yeshiva we'd all give up frumkeit in a heartbeat. It's simply not true.<br /><br />As Mark pointed out above, I don't know very many people who remained at the same religious level of their parents after yeshiva. As many people as I know who became more observant and/or RW, I know a lot of people who no longer do anything or are far less observant than their families. There are no guarantees in life. The two biggest factors are: 1) Family environment and attitude to Judaism; and 2) Whether the child is particularly vulnerable to outside influences. In terms of #2, I have seen many people with weak senses of self go off to yeshivas and get "brainwashed" frum and the opposite - people going off to secular universities and getting "brainwashed" non-observant.<br /><br />I think yeshivas are a starting point, not the end of the matter.Tuition Talkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11008988432446322237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19946713170252358332010-01-15T10:41:02.731-05:002010-01-15T10:41:02.731-05:00But Honestly Frum, you keep dismissing it as "...But Honestly Frum, you keep dismissing it as "if it was easy, it would have been done."<br /><br />Why do you believe that? I'm serious about this.<br /><br />The GOAL of the system has NOT been cost effective Jewish education. Keeping tuition costs down has NOT been a goal.<br /><br />One of the schools here, upset that families that could give more weren't, hiked tuition one year 20%, not because costs went up, but to appease donors that felt others were free riding.<br /><br />Look at the economic forces driving the system. The schools have functioned EXACTLY as those would predict.<br /><br />Cost effective Jewish education is no more difficult now than 20 years, but 20 years ago, nobody really cared, now its an issue, because each year of tuition increase = 2x wages resulted in fewer and fewer full payers, so fewer and fewer of the parents CARE about cost controls.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-54370653511012655032010-01-15T10:36:43.045-05:002010-01-15T10:36:43.045-05:00Ely, thank you.
Honestly Frum, there are economic...Ely, thank you.<br /><br />Honestly Frum, there are economic reasons that the schools are as screwed up as they are AND GETTING WORSE. You don't want to discuss them, you just want to say "our best minds could come up with solutions."<br /><br />If you change the perverse incentives, the situation will get much better VERY quickly. Tuition increases at roughly 2x wages, that isn't sacrifice, that's going off a cliff.<br /><br />I have suggested structural changes that would:<br /> 1. Reverse tuition increases<br /> 2. Increase wages<br /><br />If we increase wages and lower tuition, crisis averted.<br /><br />However, as long as the economic disincentives to earn aren't removed, we're screwed.<br /><br />Please note, I haven't said a word about Kollel in this... they aren't our problem.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-38002873958035776272010-01-15T10:33:37.642-05:002010-01-15T10:33:37.642-05:00ProfK, the recent call for keeping more and more o...ProfK, the recent call for keeping more and more of Tzedakah in the communities, the call for excluding people coming into our communities to fund raise, these are all attempts to limit Tzedakah until the "schools are funded." In only looking at direct effect, we've walked away from Jewish values because the Day School has crowded things out.<br /><br />My issue is that when the state of affairs causes one to not keep Jewish values, there is a problem.<br /><br />The local Modern Orthodox Rabbi would never support, encourage, or condone the level of family planning that occurs here... but he makes jokes about how "we have birth control in Orthodox Judaism, it's called tuition."<br /><br />That's NOT funny. That is a tax on having Jewish children.<br /><br />So he fights the charter schools, insists on no alternative to Day School, and watches his community practice birth control.<br /><br />Does anyone dispute that the day school financing mechanism results in the following:<br />1. Discourages overtime, second jobs, and other ways to bring more income in since the scholarship committee takes it all?<br />2. Encourages employment in the Yeshiva over better paying work elsewhere because of tuition perks (pre-tax payment plus discount)<br />3. Results in children going to less competitive colleges since Yeshiva won't consider college expenses as necessary for scholarship and colleges won't consider private school -- UNLESS the grandparents can pay college directly and bypass the scholarship committee<br />4. Results in under saving for the future, which will result in fewer elderly Orthodox leaving large sums of money to community causes.<br /><br />In addition there is a serious issue that nobody is dealing with. Most Jewish "communal" organizations are funded through non-Orthodox sources. While we may not use them entirely, we do benefit from them. There are fewer and fewer non-Orthodox Jews, they are more likely to assimilate, intermarry, etc. The pile of people to do Kiruv to is shrinking, and the pile of money coming from those sources has a finite lifespan.<br /><br />The net effect of these changes is downright scary for the future of Orthodox Judaism, and nobody in a position of power seems OPENLY concerned.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.com