tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post2833471406324252496..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36814320875228906802008-07-03T06:44:00.000-04:002008-07-03T06:44:00.000-04:00re: the Bostoner RebbePerhaps his experience in Bo...re: the Bostoner Rebbe<BR/><BR/>Perhaps his experience in Boston Latin is what motivated him to start Torah Academy in Brookline.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60051507285323032482008-06-20T12:13:00.000-04:002008-06-20T12:13:00.000-04:00Baruch.1) I am orthodox, and I don't appreciate th...Baruch.<BR/><BR/>1) I am orthodox, and I don't appreciate the insults thank you very much.<BR/><BR/>2)I went to public schools at least for some of my childhood, and Jewish schools for none of it. <BR/><BR/>3) You have a choice, you choose not to send your children to public schools, if you do then tax dollars will pay for their education, you made the choice of your own free will to do otherwise.<BR/><BR/>I very much share the concerns of the readers of this blog which is why chasing phantoms bothers me. The Orthodox community has been pushing vouchers and the like for more than 40 years ad in that time has gotten exactly no where. Its time we admit that it is not going to happen and come up with Plan "B". <BR/><BR/>When It comes down to it this will not be decided be you or me but by the various state legislatures. You can try talking to them but I expect that the tax hike that would be required to fund Jewish, Catholic and other religious schools would be a non starter. Instead of insulting each other maybe we should talk about methods of solving this before the community goes broke? This is not about what we what we can or can not do. State funding of Yeshivot in the USA is in the "Can not" Column. <BR/><BR/>Bankruptcy will not do wonders for our children's state of mind. If nothing else chapter 13 bankruptcy rules limit a family to $1500/year of school tuition (per family not child) or at least that is my understanding. <BR/><BR/>It is my understanding that the Bostoner Rebbe went to Boston Latin school as there was no Jewish school in Boston at that time.Zach Kessinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04276155117746098546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11317790251916744702008-06-20T12:12:00.000-04:002008-06-20T12:12:00.000-04:00DO NOT ASK ME TO SPEND MY TAX DOLLARS TO EDUCATE Y...<I>DO NOT ASK ME TO SPEND MY TAX DOLLARS TO EDUCATE YOUR CHILDREN WHEN YOUR TAX DOLLARS WILL NOT EDUCATE MINE</I><BR/><BR/>That's not how taxes work.<BR/><BR/>People without children pay school taxes. People whose children are long since grown pay school taxes. People who choose to home school pay school taxes. <BR/><BR/>People who don't live in flood zones pay for Federal rescue efforts.<BR/><BR/>People who don't live in cities pay for the Federal funds that go towards mass transit.<BR/><BR/>If you only pay for what you use, that's a fee, not a tax.<BR/><BR/>I'm aware that you don't want to take advantage of the public schools. It is only when your desire translates into "so everyone else should pay" that I have a problem with it.<BR/><BR/>If your children were prevented from going to Public Schools, you'd have a case. But you aren't, you just choose not to send them.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81847457708292423182008-06-20T11:37:00.000-04:002008-06-20T11:37:00.000-04:00Dave - thank you for your honesty - we are talking...Dave - thank you for your honesty - we are talking two diffrent languages here - if I did not care if my children observed the torah or remained jewish - offcourse public school is the cheaper better option <BR/><BR/>to zach kessin <BR/><BR/>here is the problem - private school is not affordable for 95% of the orthodox community - it is a product that only the very rich can afford in the general non-jewish community - therefore we wish our tax dollars be used to educate our children in an environment where they can remain jews - <BR/><BR/>(the following is if your children attend PS) <BR/><BR/>just as your tax dollars are used to educate your children in the secular humanist and somewhat hedonistic education you have chosen for your children - we want our tax dollars to educate our children in a moral torah environment - you have choice - we want choice - DO NOT ASK ME TO SPEND MY TAX DOLLARS TO EDUCATE YOUR CHILDREN WHEN YOUR TAX DOLLARS WILL NOT EDUCATE MINE <BR/><BR/>I suspect that you are either non-orthodox or extremely wealthy and therefore do not share the same concerns of the readers of this orthodox economic blog - This blog deals with orthodox jews trying to remain orthodox and not economically bankrupt - of what possible interest could that be to you <BR/><BR/>Zach - If your children indeed attend public school - I wish you well - It is likely that your grandchildren have a 50% chance of intermarrying and 0% chance of being observantAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90745434435263559692008-06-20T10:35:00.000-04:002008-06-20T10:35:00.000-04:00I am curious about the "Two Building Solution" of ...I am curious about the "Two Building Solution" of having a similar Ben Gamla-type charter school for secular studies and even Hebrew language and then a comprehensive (much better and beyond anything the other denominations do) yeshiva-type program that runs outside of the charter school day. I think we really need to think outside the box about this. Vouchers won't work- we know that already. <BR/><BR/>I realize there are some parents who wouldn't even consider this, but I know many who would be willing to try this if say, there were a really robust Jewish education program- perhaps a before-school program AND an after-school program. Maybe a program that includes Shabbat morning like many of they ultra-frum schools in Israel... <BR/><BR/>We have to be more creative (and courageous) about this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-82220289578867685162008-06-20T01:38:00.000-04:002008-06-20T01:38:00.000-04:00the government can not say - you live in an orthod...<B>the government can not say - you live in an orthodox neighborhhood - so you will not receive police protection - you must live in a non-jewish neighborhhod to receive it<BR/>general studies should be provided in any school - as is dine in the UK and FRANCE and Israel</B><BR/><BR/>Why? you have provided no arguments as to why the government should pay for this besides you wish it too be so. If you want the government to pay for your kids schooling send them to public schools. If you choose to send your kid to a *PRIVATE* school don't complain that it has to be paid for privately. <BR/><BR/><B>Property in high-value areas (like, say, Brooklyn, or really, anywhere in the Tri-State area) could be sold, and the communities relocate to parts of the country (say the very rural Midwest) where the cost of living is low enough to allow the profits from New York real estate to fund entire communities. This is, as I understand it, what the Amish do when land becomes too expensive for the next generation.<BR/></B><BR/>This only will work if everyone is not mortgaged up to their eyeballs, which they are.Zach Kessinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04276155117746098546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-13089331326785195122008-06-19T11:07:00.000-04:002008-06-19T11:07:00.000-04:00In fairness, he's right. I'm not an Orthodox Jew, ...In fairness, he's right. I'm not an Orthodox Jew, nor do I intend to become one.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53011651493035708672008-06-19T11:03:00.000-04:002008-06-19T11:03:00.000-04:00Everyone gets Police Protection. The *same* Police...Everyone gets Police Protection. The *same* Police Protection. The city doesn't fund provide funding for the private security in a gated community because they want their own police.<BR/><BR/>Everyone can send their children to public school, free of charge. The same schools.<BR/><BR/>If you want private schools, you pay for it. If you want private security, you pay for it. Trash pickup, well, where I live, that's private anyway, so I pay for it.<BR/><BR/>Are there options other than public schools for the Orthodox in America? <BR/><BR/>Sure, but I think all of them are less likely.<BR/><BR/>The number of children per family could drop, which would lower the tuition impact.<BR/><BR/>Property in high-value areas (like, say, Brooklyn, or really, anywhere in the Tri-State area) could be sold, and the communities relocate to parts of the country (say the very rural Midwest) where the cost of living is low enough to allow the profits from New York real estate to fund entire communities. This is, as I understand it, what the Amish do when land becomes too expensive for the next generation.<BR/><BR/>As I said, I consider those possibilities far more remote than a combination of public schools and then private religious education in the afternoons.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23307174171543389752008-06-19T11:02:00.000-04:002008-06-19T11:02:00.000-04:00"dave - your comments concerning orthodox jewish c..."dave - your comments concerning orthodox jewish children going to public school reveals that you are not an orthodox jew" <BR/><BR/>How chutzpadik! How dare you say that! What yeshiva did you learn that in?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34978092994378229032008-06-19T10:43:00.000-04:002008-06-19T10:43:00.000-04:00Dave - ridiculous !!!everyone is "some of the tax ...Dave - ridiculous !!!<BR/><BR/>everyone is "some of the tax payers"<BR/><BR/>and in return for their fair share of taxes - they receive police protection, sanitation pick-up and a general studies education for their children<BR/><BR/>[we are not asking the government to fund torah studies] <BR/><BR/>the government can not say - you live in an orthodox neighborhhood - so you will not receive police protection - you must live in a non-jewish neighborhhod to receive it <BR/>general studies should be provided in any school - as is dine in the UK and FRANCE and Israel<BR/><BR/><BR/>dave - your comments concerning orthodox jewish children going to public school reveals that you are not an orthodox jew so let me explain some things to you <BR/><BR/>in order for orthodox children to remain so - they must go to a yeshiva -in fact in many cases they will intermarry and not even remain jewish if they go to public schoolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85721738492949311932008-06-19T10:42:00.000-04:002008-06-19T10:42:00.000-04:00I am very curious about this idea of masses of fru...I am very curious about this idea of masses of frum children suddenly migrating into public schools. Not that I think it's going to happen, but it's kind of interesting to think about possible consequences of this.<BR/><BR/>Keep in mind I live in Baltimore where the public schools are notoriously horrible though there are a few bright spots.<BR/><BR/>For instance: <BR/>1) This would almost certainly result in a large migration of frum Jews out of Baltimore City proper. Baltimore City has a very large frum presence. How would this be effected? I live in B. City and I would probably move before sending my kids to the local elementary school. Though maybe I would feel differently if I knew the school was suddenly going to become 25% Jewish.<BR/><BR/>2) Could public schools accomodate the shear numbers of new students coming in? How would this work exactly from the school's point of view? Would they find themselves in July suddengly faced with impending enrollment increase of, say, 25%?<BR/><BR/>3) How would public schools change by having a large influx of students who come from relatively cohesive, 2-parent, families who are likely to be very involved in their kids' education?<BR/><BR/>4) Given the effect of kids' Jewish education on the spiritual lives of the parents (a friend of mine did her PhD on this in the non-frum Jewish world), how would this affect people's frumkeit overall?<BR/><BR/>Someone told me recently that she heard that there are about 100 frum kids enrolled in public school here. I wonder how many of these are NOT special ed. <BR/><BR/>I also wonder how that is working out for the kids and parents. I was driving by a local elementary school a few months ago and could have sworn I saw a kid with a kippah on wearing the school uniform and hanging with a group of other kids from the school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89078855093911512462008-06-19T10:06:00.000-04:002008-06-19T10:06:00.000-04:00Yeshiva parents are *some* of the Taxpayers. Gover...Yeshiva parents are *some* of the Taxpayers. <BR/><BR/>Government mandated general studies are provided for frum children the same way they are provided for all children -- in public schools.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-6940807249957223822008-06-19T10:02:00.000-04:002008-06-19T10:02:00.000-04:00To Dave - your quote is so offbase - it really doe...To Dave - your quote is so offbase - it really does not deserve a reply - but I will anyway - this is your quote <BR/><BR/>"Why is it that the answer is always "someone else should pay"?" <BR/><BR/>"the taxpayers" <BR/><BR/>YESHIVA PARENTS ARE THE TAXPAYERS !!!!!<BR/><BR/>WE ARE ONLY ASKING THAT Government mandated general studies be provided for our children the same way it is provided for non-jewish children and the same way it is provided for jewish children in the UK <BR/><BR/>No one other than the top 5% of income earners can afford private school tuition !!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-73141741073173688392008-06-19T03:29:00.000-04:002008-06-19T03:29:00.000-04:00Why has yeshiva tuition risen so steeply - in no r...Why has yeshiva tuition risen so steeply - in no relation to cost of living or inflation?<BR/><BR/>Major factors:<BR/><BR/>- Mismanagement - including lots of nepotism <BR/><BR/>- Cliquey, exclusive mentality that limits parents' options, and creates enormous redundancy and inefficiency.<BR/><BR/>Additional factors:<BR/><BR/>- Supply and demand - thank G-d more kids than ever are being pointed towards Jewish education. But most adults don't want to work in chinuch.<BR/><BR/>- Beefed up secular studies - in response to demand by parents. My yeshiva high school did not have gym or lab facilities like what I see in the brochures nowadays.<BR/><BR/>So: there are valid reasons for higher tuition, but also a lot of waste.<BR/><BR/>How can parents engage and improve the situation?<BR/><BR/>- Get involved. Join the bodies that oversee and govern educational institutions - and if there aren't any, set them up!<BR/><BR/>- Challenge community tunnel-vision and self-imposed restriction of options. Which leads to:<BR/><BR/>- Help build community-wide solutions that serve larger groups of students more efficiently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-69954444837909411312008-06-19T03:14:00.000-04:002008-06-19T03:14:00.000-04:00Hey!Thanks for sharing this information.Hey!<BR/><BR/>Thanks for sharing this information.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70630430208385703902008-06-19T01:35:00.000-04:002008-06-19T01:35:00.000-04:00Re financial life in Israel: I currently pay 500 s...Re financial life in Israel: <BR/>I currently pay 500 shekel a year for elementary school mamlachti date + books (maybe another 400 shekel)<BR/><BR/>For an 8th grade yeshiva tichonit I paid 560 shekel a month this year.<BR/><BR/>For the mamlachti date torani elementary it's about 300 shekel a month.<BR/><BR/>For the commentator who said retirement is covered in Israel, I believe you are mistaken. Bituach Leumi (Israeli social security) is extremely low, certainly not enough to live on. <BR/><BR/>Health care is the big bonus. We do pay for a supplemental plan but it's reasonable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41227307793665782852008-06-18T23:52:00.000-04:002008-06-18T23:52:00.000-04:00the only solution is government funding like in th...<I>the only solution is government funding like in the UK and France and Israel</I><BR/><BR/>Why is it that the answer is always "someone else should pay"? <BR/><BR/>Whether it is the grandparents, the unmarried siblings, or as in this case, the taxpayers, the solution to the tuition crisis that keeps being brought up is "someone else should pay".<BR/><BR/>Leaving aside what are to me the questionable ethics of "I want, so you should pay for me", it isn't going to happen. <BR/><BR/>Local communities are heading into a big budget crunch right now, and certainly aren't going to be signing up for new obligations.<BR/><BR/>Taxpayers are facing financial pain right now, and aren't going to be signing up for higher taxes.<BR/><BR/>So the solution needs to be something else. I suspect that it is going to be "public schools and afternoon religious schooling", largely because I don't see another financially viable option.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-6596357306715943102008-06-18T18:48:00.000-04:002008-06-18T18:48:00.000-04:00"Absolutely. I personally know at least 3 differen...<I>"Absolutely. I personally know at least 3 different families who cited tuition as one their major reasons for making aliyah."</I><BR/><BR/>This may be what they said, but it isn't really phrased correctly. It isn't the tuition that caused them to make aliyah, but rather the desire for a Jewish education! The tuition problem (itself) is easily solved by sending the kids to the free public school :-)<BR/><BR/><I>"As a BT, I really am beginning to think I made a giant mistake by going down the road of religious living and day school."</I><BR/><BR/>Are you kidding, as a FFB, with 5 children, I am thinking the same thing.<BR/><BR/>We have 3 kids in school right now, the twins who are almost 3 years old will stay home as long as possible. For our 4'th grader and 2'nd grader, they just raised tuition to $13,900 each, and our kindergartener is going to a less expensive school for one more year at about $8,000 or something like that (I still don't have the paperwork). That's $35,800 before any additional school expenses, and there are plenty of those. That's also 3 times the mortgage! Oy Vey.<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-3116981907175728912008-06-18T15:03:00.000-04:002008-06-18T15:03:00.000-04:00anonymous: even if the Israeli tuition is high rel...anonymous: even if the Israeli tuition is high relative to your incomes, the difference is that university is extremely inexpensive and your healthcare and retirement is pretty much taken care of. In the States, you have to fund all of these on your own (I'm saying this, just guessing that those of us in our late 20s/early 30s will have no social security to speak of- not that you could reasonabily live off that now, given the cost of healthcare). So I imagine for many families it is a nice solution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63522368161369762012008-06-18T15:01:00.000-04:002008-06-18T15:01:00.000-04:00As for Ed McMahon - what on earth does that have t...<I>As for Ed McMahon - what on earth does that have to do with the average Jew?</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Simply, the traps Ed McMahon fell into (too high of a mortgage for his age combined with spending more than he should in his youth is a pattern that we see all over the US and in the frum community and this is where these habits lead. I gave other examples of such.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you tuition is the #1 financial issue in the frum community. But, we do make it worse and that is what this blog looks at. Sorry if your find that "patronizing." If you haven't seen tuition threads, check them out. We have acknowledged the big white elephant on this blog.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14372451608882303262008-06-18T13:39:00.000-04:002008-06-18T13:39:00.000-04:00Duh !Every year many families make aloya from berg...Duh !<BR/><BR/>Every year many families make aloya from bergen county and become what is known as "tuition refugees" There is much tuition driven aliya among the modern orthodox - especially if they have more than 2 or 3 childrenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-73403628303189502062008-06-18T12:48:00.000-04:002008-06-18T12:48:00.000-04:00I wonder if there are American olim for whom the l...<I>I wonder if there are American olim for whom the lower cost of schools here compared to the US was a factor in their Aliya decision</I><BR/>Absolutely. I personally know at least 3 different families who cited tuition as one their major reasons for making aliyah.Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81779549378826607492008-06-18T10:49:00.000-04:002008-06-18T10:49:00.000-04:00I understand that the previous contributors are al...I understand that the previous contributors are all living in the US. Here in Israel too, some of us pay high tuition (relative to our income)for yeshiva high schools, girls' ulpanot and even elementary schools and we just received notice of an increase for next year. We pay about 15,000 IS a year for each high school boy (not a dormitory yeshiva - I assume those cost more) 8500 IS for the girls hs and 7000 IS for elementary school. For an Israeli family living off 2 average salaries it can be quite a chunk of income. I wonder if there are American olim for whom the lower cost of schools here compared to the US was a factor in their Aliya decision, when considering all issues, especially if they come with some financial backing which seems to go a longer way here than there. And will the US real estate crisis will have an impact on aliya from the US?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-21667171569034714362008-06-18T09:00:00.000-04:002008-06-18T09:00:00.000-04:00We need to discuss the Ben Gamla charter school an...We need to discuss the Ben Gamla charter school and the "Two Building Solution" a guest poster blogged about here a while ago. If done correctly, this could elevate some of the money-crunch felt by middle class frum families. <BR/><BR/>The local newspaper had an editoral about this a few weeks ago, but it never goes any where. No one wants to touch it. Its too political. No, its not an answer for everyone, but, again, if done right, could be right for a lot of families.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41012072714949388712008-06-18T07:27:00.000-04:002008-06-18T07:27:00.000-04:00As a BT, I really am beginning to think I made a g...<I>As a BT, I really am beginning to think I made a giant mistake by going down the road of religious living and day school.</I><BR/><BR/>I could easily have written this. Given our current precarious financial situation I think about this quite frequently. For this I gave up my family? So I could be financially ruined?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com