tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post2951441254947584671..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: A Legitimate Need TooOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger105125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81148431661870751932010-10-18T01:09:31.126-04:002010-10-18T01:09:31.126-04:00very few children in Israel actually go hungry. fo...very few children in Israel actually go hungry. food is cheap, there are food banks, and yeshiva students receive a stipend. Those of us living in Israel are certainly capable of keeping them fed, if not well, then at least so they're not hungry. Those of us who are renting and made small weddings are not so eager to give money so that others can buy luxuries we don't buy for ourselves...<br /><br />A friend was living in a 2-room (that's 1 bedroom) rented apartment where the sum total of their furnishings were 2 mattresses and 2 plastic chairs when someone came to the door asking for money to help buy and furnish a place for a young married couple. <br /><br />The young woman asked the man if he'd go out collecting for her next...Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23877400397135357792010-10-17T21:40:35.985-04:002010-10-17T21:40:35.985-04:00anon, the Americans are not really managing to fee...anon, the Americans are not really managing to feed the hungry Israeli kids. Before the economy crashed, maybe they did but not anymore.rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16820797261256113482010-10-17T21:07:03.769-04:002010-10-17T21:07:03.769-04:00The more I think about it, the more I feel that th...The more I think about it, the more I feel that those who aren't repulsed by the twisted sick thinking of those who live far above their means -- and it seems to me to be a basically Chareidei phenomenon -- are not being merciful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-7178806272767861702010-10-17T19:32:07.673-04:002010-10-17T19:32:07.673-04:00Chareidi children in Israel going hungry is not an...Chareidi children in Israel going hungry is not an issue, because American chareidim support food banks for Chareidi children in Israel. That leaves housing, the big expense that is not covered by American tzedakah or the government. That's why chareidim from Israel come to chareidi communities in America to collect. It's been that way for years. The amount of money they need is impossible to raise by any other means. Food is donated, buying an apartment is the major problem for Israeli chareidim. Fathers make promises they have no way of keeping - and are in terrible debt as a result.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72949368048377208072010-10-17T17:09:26.207-04:002010-10-17T17:09:26.207-04:00Not everyone will appreciate a stripped down affai...<i>Not everyone will appreciate a stripped down affair and some family members might not be delicate about expressing their disapproval.</i><br /><br />True, you can't please everyone. <br /><br /><i>If the next generation decides that it is not worth it to go into debt over weddings, I hope that they are all in agreement.</i><br /><br />What, really? You know, when you have two Jews you have three opinions. Everyone being in agreement, that sounds like a pipe dream.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40042107794583400412010-10-17T16:59:03.151-04:002010-10-17T16:59:03.151-04:00Most of the people that knock on doors to collect ...Most of the people that knock on doors to collect for hachnassas kallah are from Israel where an estimated 700,000 children are malnourished. That the money is for a chassunah and a dirah, while the children are hungry, is problematic. Heredi society encourages a culture of begging and does nothing to solve the current situation. <br /> But, that does not mean that in MO circles, people don't go into debt for fancy weddings. MO families probably have means to pay off the debts that they incur but that does not mean that they are not affected by a community standard of gashmius.<br /> Wealthy people are expected to invite more people and have a more expensive celebration. Yes, I know everyone has a story of someone who ignored those expectations and who could have done more but chose to do less. Much of Jewish culture revolves around weddings and it is very easy to go over budget and pile expenses on credit cards. <br /> The person in Boro Park or in Israel that makes a wedding rather than pay shul dues or donate more to tzedukah is circulating dollars into his local frum economy. Weddings generate spending some of which goes back into the community. While all Jews are connected, I don't feel it coming out of my wallet as I live far from either place. I don't donate more because they overspend on weddings.<br />It does not help to be jealous of what others spend on simchas and to say that they were not entitled to spend what they spent. While doing less is a legitimate choice, those who choose to do less should be ready to defend it. Not everyone will appreciate a stripped down affair and some family members might not be delicate about expressing their disapproval. There might have to be lengthy negotiations with all factions of the wedding party unless everyone loves a radical idea. If the next generation decides that it is not worth it to go into debt over weddings, I hope that they are all in agreement.rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-13743811104924520922010-10-16T23:44:19.279-04:002010-10-16T23:44:19.279-04:00Rosie said >Plenty of MO families make humongou...Rosie said >Plenty of MO families make humongous weddings. Now maybe these are highly paid professionals with smaller families but the amount that the wedding costs in proportion to their income is still likely to put them into debt. Now are MO families allowed to do that or is there some fear that their overspending will spill over and end up costing someone else in the community? Are big weddings wrong for everyone or just for the RW because of their holier than though attitude? Can anyone police what people spend on weddings so that the poor don't emulate the rich? When feeding someone who becomes destitute, unless you know that he blew the wealth on weddings, how do you know how he became destitute? Are you currently feeding someone who became destitute marrying off his kids?<br />anon, in some out of town communities, there would be few friends of the chosson and kallah if some of their friends did not come. I agree that one does not have to travel to every wedding but sometimes the people are very close to either the chosson or the kallah.<<br /><br />I've had hundreds of folks knocking on my door over the years and not a single one I recall was MO. 'Nuff said!Dovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29401181089825746242010-10-15T11:23:40.611-04:002010-10-15T11:23:40.611-04:00Abba - maybe people do think that it's moral t...Abba - maybe people do think that it's moral to learn Torah instead of work. That's what they've been taught. It's a twisted type of morality but a type of morality nonetheless.<br /><br />As Bklynmom says, though, many of her inner-city non-Jewish acquaintances live upstanding lives. It's beyond me why so many Orthodox Jews view all inner-city non-Jews as thieves, prostitutes, and drug addicts. Oh wait, it's not beyond me; the answer is racism.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-73937018195475074192010-10-15T10:22:07.253-04:002010-10-15T10:22:07.253-04:00TESYAA:
"I hope people don't start sayin...TESYAA:<br /><br />"I hope people don't start saying "well that community does it, why can't we?"<br /><br />actually that's a pretty standard line.<br /><br />ANON:<br /><br />"the right wing Jewish welfare class is still morally, socially and culturally on a high level"<br /><br />a) even if true, so what? <br />b) there is nothing moral about the lack of a work ethic<br />c) how is it moral to obtain government assistance under false or fraudelent pretenses? (e.g., some couples don't file for a civil marriage license in order to preserve the opportunity for single mom benefits, but did you know that in new york it is illegal for a rabbi to conduct a wedding ceremony without a civil marriage license?)<br /><br />i have much less of a problem with recourse to the practical logic of "the [fill in you racial favorite epithet] get it so why can't we" than your moral apologeticsAbba's Rantingshttp://abbasrantings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-55283911739206536202010-10-15T09:57:04.106-04:002010-10-15T09:57:04.106-04:00SethG: giving a break is saying that they shouldn&...SethG: giving a break is saying that they shouldn't be limited by the money that the couple manages to earmark for the wedding out of their own earnings between the date of the engagement and the date of the wedding.<br /><br />Saying that the parents should help as much as they feel comfortable helping (based on their own needs too!) is giving the couple a break.<br /><br />I think every girl deserves to feel like a princess on her wedding day, but you can feel like a princess in a gemach dress (I certainly did) with a modest bouquet and without a schmorg that could feed a small African country, invitations that cost a dollar apiece or more, etc...Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-77110802751788107192010-10-15T09:19:30.495-04:002010-10-15T09:19:30.495-04:00I am tempted to say “give these folks a break: you...I am tempted to say “give these folks a break: you only get married once [God willing], so it’s not the worst thing to have a big bash when you get married if both parties are ready to adopt a more frugal lifestyle afterward”.<br /><br />But it’s not <i>just</i> the wedding, is it? There will be brises, bar mitzvahs, childrens’ weddings, gifts for friends’ simchas.... If the couple and their families can’t negotiate a reasonable standard for the wedding itself, it bodes ill for the rest of the marriage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50008071541006258802010-10-15T06:57:10.334-04:002010-10-15T06:57:10.334-04:00Being kind to people who are just like you and fit...Being kind to people who are just like you and fit your mold is not such a big deal. The test is how you treat the folks who don't fit your narrow mold, whether its the homosexual or lesbian, the child who wants to get a secular education, or the relative who is not observant and what you say about and how you treat people who aren't part of your group, whether its your hispanic cleaning lady or your black neighbor or your secular jewish co-worker.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37902327942872666822010-10-14T22:59:08.486-04:002010-10-14T22:59:08.486-04:00Mark wrote: "But add some real economic dislo...Mark wrote: "But add some real economic dislocation (that is almost surely coming someday as our debt chickens come home to roost) and you will see wholesale closures of institutions without even a chance of saving them because we disposed of all our wealth on Yeshiva tuition and weddings."<br /><br />Mark is right. A significant percentage of Orthodox institutions could fail over the next 5 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34293845750752430212010-10-14T16:41:03.362-04:002010-10-14T16:41:03.362-04:00I see that as a trend that will affect the tot-lot...I see that as a trend that will affect the tot-lot set. It isn't happening at the moment but some young parents (such as some of my children) claim that they won't send their children to the type of yeshivas that they went to. I also see that "working" boys are increasing in number and many have some type of training or college, albeit Touro. In the NY area FEGS which is the parnassah branch of Jewish Federation is helping young frum men with job training. <br />Also, some young people who were brought up RW are now MO, possibly because they want to fit into a secular work force. My children are not MO, they are RW but are concerned about teaching their children to make a living.rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-42023644583008555932010-10-14T16:18:11.198-04:002010-10-14T16:18:11.198-04:00Rosie, do you see that? I haven't seen it, but...Rosie, do you see that? I haven't seen it, but I'm glad if you do. All I see is professional training for young women only, and in fields which are "frum-approved", i.e., nothing that would upset the neighbors, and therefore oversaturated. I do not see any trend toward secular education beyond a minimum for boys.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85259901050502151712010-10-14T15:48:06.842-04:002010-10-14T15:48:06.842-04:00anon, it appears to me that those who swim against...anon, it appears to me that those who swim against the tide are doing it as a group. I see young people today who grew up in the frum community and will refuse to send their child to any yeshiva without secular education.rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60455856058499624642010-10-14T15:04:57.837-04:002010-10-14T15:04:57.837-04:00"Swim against the tide" - Rosie, that is..."Swim against the tide" - Rosie, that is precisely the issue. The bulwark for the individual in right wing frumkeit is the support of your community. If you choose to swim against the tide - wear a different hair embellishment than the other girls in your high school, speak English with more polish than your classmates, or study secular subjects outside of a frum framework, you risk placing yourself outside the community. The community's standards buffer the individual against the moral dangers of the outside world, but prevent outside ideas from infiltrating as well. The compromises one makes to earn a living, in terms of giving up the protected environment, are often incompatible with the chareidi yeshiva worldview.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-18462853994119873752010-10-14T14:52:01.770-04:002010-10-14T14:52:01.770-04:00Anon 1:48 - Those I know are kind, truly frum, pea...Anon 1:48 - <i>Those I know are kind, truly frum, peaceable, and rather innocent.</i><br /><br />Preventing ones children from getting a useful education and teaching them to not work is UNkind, UNfrum, leads to lack of peace, and is entirely NOT innocent! It's evil.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40189870905248569202010-10-14T14:43:51.364-04:002010-10-14T14:43:51.364-04:00A great many of the families I was refering to are...A great many of the families I was refering to are religiously devout, kind, not violent in any way (actually many suffer from the violence in their neighborhoods, in which they play no part), hold children and the elderly in very high regard, and have a supportive community of extended family, friends, church congregation. And they too lack the education to advance professionally, and put little value on work, or choose not to work so as not to lose their benefits. Not much difference, except for the two-parent household part. Except that many (not the majority, perhaps, but many) are actually two-parent households who choose not not get legally married so as not to lose the government handouts. Sounds familiar?Bklynmomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-48359580808147477272010-10-14T14:37:10.304-04:002010-10-14T14:37:10.304-04:00anon, what you said is one of the recognized probl...anon, what you said is one of the recognized problems of the frum community. Leading people out of poverty with education though is like taking a country like Bolivia (rescued miner #4) and telling them to make over their lifestyle so that they won't be poor. Those who want to make a better life will have to swim against the tide because it is unlikely that any rabbinic leadership will arise to change the situation.rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-76792673866265027762010-10-14T14:02:04.483-04:002010-10-14T14:02:04.483-04:00I am Anon. 10/14 1:45 pm. I knew I was going to ge...I am Anon. 10/14 1:45 pm. I knew I was going to get flack for saying a welfare class can be on a high moral level. The commenters here are not (correct me if I'm wrong) speaking from personal knowledge of poor families from Lakewood and chasidic communities. Those I know are kind, truly frum, peaceable, and rather innocent. I do not see a lot of shrewd operators - if they were shrewd, they would be making out better than the minimal material existence I see. They are poor because they do not value secular work and the education necessary to achieve in secular society. Many are the children of frum parents who made decisions for them that led them to a life of poverty and benefits. Okay, commenters, fire away!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-22113382233372084792010-10-14T13:48:39.541-04:002010-10-14T13:48:39.541-04:00The right wing Jewish welfare class is still moral...<i> The right wing Jewish welfare class is still morally, socially and culturally on a high level. </i><br /><br />I find no means in which I can define a class which shuns work and instead decides to live off the work of others to be on any kind of a moral, social, or cultural high level.<br /><br />And that's before you get to things like benefits fraud.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51075758511961306342010-10-14T13:45:49.128-04:002010-10-14T13:45:49.128-04:00quite so, Sephardi Lady. There is a girl in the sa...quite so, Sephardi Lady. There is a girl in the same class as my daughter who qualifies for the free or very reduced cost (like $50 for the whole year) hot lunch program who insists on Uggs and $90 loafers.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-13470942401072646662010-10-14T13:45:21.513-04:002010-10-14T13:45:21.513-04:00"We are nothing like them" - Most import..."We are nothing like them" - Most important, the NY and Lakewood Orthodox families on public assistance and all kinds of programs are predominantly intact 2 parent families with Jewish values of kindness to children and the elderly, a strong supportive community, and an idealistic religious faith to sustain them. While their attitude toward work is not that of the commenters on this blog, and their attitude toward secular education is in my opinion lacking, the right wing Jewish welfare class is still morally, socially and culturally on a high level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80097470937099293822010-10-14T13:39:39.182-04:002010-10-14T13:39:39.182-04:00Brlynmom-I'd say you are right on point. We s...Brlynmom-I'd say you are right on point. We spend our money like poor people.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.com