tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post298169937490167773..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Ask Orthonomics: Opting Out of Social SecurityOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-66543716823713153972012-03-26T23:49:56.932-04:002012-03-26T23:49:56.932-04:00I am considering this. Ethically, I would think it...I am considering this. Ethically, I would think it would be encouraged in Judaism. Because the work to qualify is a mitzvah and any compensation we get diminishes the merit of that mitzvah. Financially, (The way I read it) I am only agreeing to give up benefits for religious work. Not all benefits! Just in related to the religious work.Azrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11732220014393799518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-24456276879280068812010-04-18T20:59:28.055-04:002010-04-18T20:59:28.055-04:00Are you crazy? Why would you do this to your kids...Are you crazy? Why would you do this to your kids and spouse? They would receive benefits if you should God forbid die or become disabled.<br /><br />This is just as stupid as all those "geniuses"/cheaters who under-report income to the IRS. They drop dead and their unwitting spouse goes to collect for herself and her children and suddenly finds out: uh oh! there are next to no reported earnings.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-49624072534437571842010-04-17T22:24:11.588-04:002010-04-17T22:24:11.588-04:00Half the amount of self-employment tax paid is a d...Half the amount of self-employment tax paid is a deduction for federal tax purposes. That amount reduces federal tax (doesn't reduce fed tax for those who don't pay fed tax) but doesn't reduce self-employment tax. That clear?Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25110979874891535132010-04-17T21:41:32.486-04:002010-04-17T21:41:32.486-04:00elanit-I will try to find out for you. I have one...elanit-I will try to find out for you. I have one Rabbi I might be able to ask, but before that I want to see if I can locate old tax forms. Knowing some tax history, I'm fairly certain that the statement under penalty of perjury was not part of the original form.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-69238753746190785992010-04-17T21:15:45.244-04:002010-04-17T21:15:45.244-04:00Yes, I noticed that after I posted my first commen...Yes, I noticed that after I posted my first comment. I apologize for jumping. Still unsure why some of the older generation rabbinate took advantage of this.elanithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06928945623585995083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-7086342113950363712010-04-17T21:07:50.103-04:002010-04-17T21:07:50.103-04:00Another reason that this is a bad idea to do for e...Another reason that this is a bad idea to do for economic reasons...<br /><br />If you spend your entire career in Kiruv, so you avoid SS/Med taxes the entire career, you will likely be on the low end of the income scale, where social security will give you a great ROI (if you run your own Kiruv organization, even if you are a prolific fundraiser, you'd be able to put so many of the "expenses" under the organization that you are unlikely to be higher up in the income range.<br /><br />If you do NOT spend your entire career in Kiruv, you will be exempted from SS/Medicare benefits, but responsible for the taxes on your normal wages.<br /><br />In all likelihood, you will have substantial earnings that are subject to the tax without the benefits.<br /><br />This exemption is much more useful for strange and small churches with hokey situations. It's not really relevant for an Orthodox Jew that is generally integrated in society.<br /><br />Your accountant was smart to ask, since it is an option and malpractice if he didn't ask, but there seems to be no reason to do it.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19682922964239825172010-04-17T20:46:33.284-04:002010-04-17T20:46:33.284-04:00Elanit if you saw my comments in the other post yo...Elanit if you saw my comments in the other post you'll see that I had initially understood from my accountant that there were other ways to get out of paying SS, once it was clear that the only way would be to lie it became a non option to us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-21793317066719492552010-04-16T18:52:22.036-04:002010-04-16T18:52:22.036-04:00Now I see that a few folks did comment on this top...Now I see that a few folks did comment on this topic in the previous thread. And part of the post does mention the ethical problems here. But I'm not sure about doing all these calculations for something that would fall into the ethical grey area, in the least, for a rabbi to do.<br /><br />Shabbat shalom!elanithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06928945623585995083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25750967973429061502010-04-16T18:42:34.366-04:002010-04-16T18:42:34.366-04:00I'm surprised no one is bringing up what, at l...I'm surprised no one is bringing up what, at least to me, seems like an obvious problem here: by signing Form 4361, you are certifying that you are conscientiously opposed to, or that because of your religious principles you are opposed to accepting public insurance. <br /><br />The question raised in this post is opting out of Social Security payments because you want to save that money and/or reinvest it yourself. By signing this form, you're basically lying. I don't know of any Jewish religious principle that opposes public insurance; in fact, I would argue quite to the contrary, but that's a different topic for a different day.<br /><br />In any case, if rabbis are doing this, I see a huge problem here. And quite honestly, have am concerned by the discussion in this post as focusing solely on the money savings and pros and cons of opting out of paying this tax. <br /><br />Am I reading this whole thing wrong? I would expect differently from this blog so am a bit surprised.elanithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06928945623585995083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53543229086785274762010-04-16T18:38:22.397-04:002010-04-16T18:38:22.397-04:00I can't help but get the impression sometimes ...I can't help but get the impression sometimes that caring for the elderly just is not a priority in the community. Everything is so focused on youth and pouring all the community's resources into the young that there are a lot of impoverished/borderline impoverished elderly and those who might have some funds but need visits and assistance who are overlooked. I think that how the elderly are treated is one of the tests of the character of a community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-2976969172968755962010-04-16T18:27:32.907-04:002010-04-16T18:27:32.907-04:00It works out to 14.1%* if you are self-employed. ...It works out to 14.1%* if you are self-employed. I thought I'd included that, but apparantely not. <br /><br /><br />*Multiple net income by 92.35% and then by 15.3%. <br /><br />AdMir-Saving for retirement is something that is not just stressed, there is a school of thought that one should not save for retirement. When the JO put forward some this or that vs. tuition scenarios, retirement was given a no-no while camp and a vacation where needed were given the green light. <br /><br />If you click on the retirement tag you will see the subject matter. Unfortunately, saving for retirement does not enter the radar, it is looked down upon by some. But, as you know, old age happens and old age is pricy. <br /><br />The best time to save for retirement is when you are young in small increments, rather than trying to throw everything you make at retirement when the kids graduate HS/college. At that point, one can deisgnate their entire post-tax income and never catch up with the person who put away a smaller amount every month since 25 years old.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51124920919666894662010-04-16T18:09:27.705-04:002010-04-16T18:09:27.705-04:00"7.65% of salary" is only true if you ar..."7.65% of salary" is only true if you are employed by someone else. Self-employed people pay their share and their "employer's" share, so around 15%. Nonetheless, opting out sounds like a bad idea.Abacaxi Mamaohttp://abacaximamao.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41078486037698479902010-04-16T16:26:29.724-04:002010-04-16T16:26:29.724-04:00I suggest not opting out.
1) SocSec has an excelle...I suggest not opting out.<br />1) SocSec has an excellent return on investment for those on the lower-end of the financial spectrum.<br />2) SocSec has very good death benefits - monthly payment to kids up to age 18 and to surviving spouse with kids up to age 16MathGuynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41460326608299582222010-04-16T15:47:38.411-04:002010-04-16T15:47:38.411-04:00AdMir - Obviously tuition is a priority but G-d wi...AdMir - <i>Obviously tuition is a priority but G-d willing when one gets to an advanced age</i><br /><br />It seems as if everyone is assuming that after working hard to pay their kids tuition, and then later their grandkids tuition, they will probably drop dead from overwork! :-) :-(<br /><br />Shabbat Shalom all.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11563993198689207032010-04-16T15:36:59.277-04:002010-04-16T15:36:59.277-04:00I am a social worker who works with the elderly an...I am a social worker who works with the elderly and i find it astonishing how little attention saving for retirement gets in our community. Obviously tuition is a priority but G-d willing when one gets to an advanced age- and with medical technology as advanced as it is it is a reality for the majority of people- a lot of money is needed in terms of medical care, medications, home care, therapies. I am not sure if opting out of SS adn investing it is the right thing or not in this case, but I do feel that just as we look at Yeshiva tuition as a priority for our children, so too we should look at saving for retirement- by having the means to support ourselves and our needs in the older years we are ultimately giving our children the gift of not having the financial burden and anxiety around our care.AdMirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33805200557495860592010-04-16T15:30:08.668-04:002010-04-16T15:30:08.668-04:00Nuts. Absolutely nuts.
Are you aware that if you...Nuts. Absolutely nuts.<br /><br />Are you aware that if you are disabled and qualify for Social Security disability benefits, you also qualify for Medicare (at the very least, Part A, but i think other parts as well). If you opt out you won't be qualified. that would suck.jdubnoreply@blogger.com