tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post3182794285624701108..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86315844177308538332009-02-12T17:09:00.000-05:002009-02-12T17:09:00.000-05:00I know this is a really late comment, but I just c...I know this is a really late comment, but I just came across this while browsing your blog. The lifestyle of many in kollel bugs me. In yeshiva we're taught that learning full time is the ideal, with no mention of realistic ramifications. This, and the sense of entitlement that living off your parents/in-laws creates has been covered exhaustively. What I find hard to understand is how the kollel couples can accept the money. Since I was married three years ago, my wife and I have never accepted money from our parents. We were both students until recently, and I worked a low-paying job to pay our bills. Both my parents and in-laws have offered money to help us out, but I always felt that taking it was wrong. I made enough for us to live on, and I know how hard I worked for my money. My parents and in-laws work just as hard for theirs. How could I justify taking money for things I don't absoloutly need? <BR/><BR/>My wife often goes shopping with her mother, and every now and then her mother will pay for some small item my wife gets. Even that makes me uncomfortable. I can't imagine actually living off of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-87962176334146505452008-06-26T09:49:00.000-04:002008-06-26T09:49:00.000-04:00There is not one "correct" system of funding young...There is not one "correct" system of funding young family's financial needs. There is nothing wrong with a shver-funded life if it works w-out putting emotional and financial stress on both parties.<BR/><BR/>- Shver must be comfortable with his commitment to support his son / son-in-law young family. If this support is conditional on some sort of "exams" he should make it clear before-hand. He should also be financially comfortable with commitment beyond the second-guessing which might cause "exam" like "whats my ROI on all this"-driven quizzes.<BR/>- Young man clearly seems to be bothered by the "exam" settings of his father-in-law, so he should communicate to his shver about his frustrations with this setting in a respectful one-on-one conversation not forgetting to emphasize his appreciation for support.<BR/><BR/>Each situation is different. Being a father of three girls with middle-class income I dread a possibility of having to support young family of my children, however in all other cases H"B has provided means in time of need, so I hope that will happen if necessary. In any case I know that I will not make commitments that go beyond my financial capacity at the time when commitment is made.Istavnithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13217755166340518414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39704691595928808722008-06-25T19:06:00.000-04:002008-06-25T19:06:00.000-04:00I'd respond to the letter writers' question with a...I'd respond to the letter writers' question with a question:<BR/><BR/>Anyone who is passionate about something loves to talk about it. A fisherman talks about his lures, a golfer talks about his clubs,etc.<BR/><BR/>YOU have the pleasure to learn Toras Hashem ALL DAY LONG, at your FIL's expense. What a privlege!<BR/><BR/>Don't you enjoy it? Don't you light up to "Talk in learning" and share a chiddush?<BR/><BR/>So, my question is --- do you really hate what you do? If not, spend all Shabbos afternoon learning with your FIL. It's a high! If you really do hate it, please make way for another, more deserving, Talmid-Chocham-in-Waiting to receive a stipend and become a leader in Klal Yisrael.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81333221369077613792008-06-25T11:01:00.000-04:002008-06-25T11:01:00.000-04:00I would argue that the statement in Pirkei Avot (o...I would argue that the statement in Pirkei Avot (one who does not teach his child a trade teaches him to steal) is the accepted opinion. Unfortunately, we see a lot of fraud and the emet is being demonstrated.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10595824113775906622008-06-25T10:49:00.000-04:002008-06-25T10:49:00.000-04:00Elitzur, thanks for the information.I was not awar...Elitzur, thanks for the information.<BR/><BR/>I was not aware that there was a contrary opinion. I suppose that I would pose the same question to the Meiri, if I could: How do you expect your son to survive if his education and/or training does not enable him to make a living?Shira Salamonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989302669175887512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-64356600219286936912008-06-25T10:38:00.000-04:002008-06-25T10:38:00.000-04:00Shira - you are referring to the mishna at the end...Shira - you are referring to the mishna at the end of the first perek of Kiddushin. However, there seems to be a contradictory statement at the end of Kiddushin from R' Nahorai who says, "I will leave all worldly pursuits and teach my son only Torah." This boils down into an arguement between Maharsha (and others) and Meiri. The Meiri says that one who teaches his son Torah does not have to teach him a trade.<BR/><BR/>I don't like it but one has to be honest with the sources...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-31698533198863549072008-06-24T18:53:00.000-04:002008-06-24T18:53:00.000-04:00I'm posting this as a separate comment in case Sep...I'm posting this as a separate comment in case SephardiLady chooses to delete it, as I suppose that some folks may find it offensive.<BR/><BR/>It is my sincere opinion that any school, no matter from what sources it receives its funding, that does not, at an absolute minimum, teach its students 1) to speak, read, and write in the native language of the country in which they live, and 2) to do at least basic arithmatic should be illegal. To deprive any child of the ability to make a living before that child is old enough to make such a decision for himself or herself is, in my opinion, a form of child neglect.Shira Salamonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989302669175887512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90491631178548603532008-06-24T18:28:00.000-04:002008-06-24T18:28:00.000-04:00"The real solution needs to be a situation in whic..."The real solution needs to be a situation in which a man is expected to spend 1-2 years post high school in yeshiva full-time (on *his* parents' dime or on scholarship) sans wife/kids, and then marry and have a career and schedule study around the career."<BR/><BR/>An excellent idea, though, if college or other higher education or career training comes afterward, he'll still have to count pennies and/or depend on parents for a while. Still, that's a vast improvement over being dependent for life.<BR/><BR/>"Shira - Even if they WANT to go out to work, most have very little by way of marketable skills" I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Torah requires a father to teach his son a trade (and how to swim). When did it become even mutar (permissible in accordance with halachah/Jewish religious law), much less a given in certain segments of the right-wing Orthodox community, for parents to deliberately deprive their children of the education and/or training necessary to make a living?Shira Salamonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989302669175887512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-84738638135909194772008-06-24T13:21:00.000-04:002008-06-24T13:21:00.000-04:00Shira - Even if they WANT to go out to work, most ...Shira - Even if they WANT to go out to work, most have very little by way of marketable skills - but think about it - the original letter writer had EIGHT children. Unless he has two sets of quads, he's been sucking the proverbial teat for a while.<BR/><BR/>The real solution needs to be a situation in which a man is expected to spend 1-2 years post high school in yeshiva full-time (on *his* parents' dime or on scholarship) sans wife/kids, and then marry and have a career and schedule study around the career. <BR/><BR/>My brother spent two years at yeshiva, and I see that it made him much "stronger" and much more eager to take time to study. Today, he wakes up at 5am to get to a daf yomi shiur and an early minyan. He then bikes to work (it's the only time he has to exercise without taking away from his time with the kids), and he earns a salary to support his children. <BR/><BR/>Only those who feel driven to teach or study to research and write books/articles should stay in the system forever, just like in academia. <BR/><BR/>For those who feel the need to stay steeped in the kedusha - there are non-teaching *jobs* like safrus, hashgacha, shechita, publishing, etc, which are needed.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I think few things are holier than being a medical doctor and saving people's lives... but... certain communities would disagree with me.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40070916676344551492008-06-24T12:58:00.000-04:002008-06-24T12:58:00.000-04:00For the record, we told our son from the get-go th...For the record, we told our son from the get-go that he would have to be self-supporting once he got his Bachelor's, and that we would not pay for grad school. So one of his criteria for choosing a grad school was that he had to get free tuition in return for working as a teaching assistant for ridiculously low pay. He's living on his paltry earnings, with assistance from us old geezers when necessary only. Elitzur, since our son made no plans to raise children during grad school and most certainly has neither the income to do so nor the free time to take a second job (since physics students do research in their so-called spare time), we certainly hope that he chooses to wait. Kudos to those who can manage to support a family and still earn a graduate degree.<BR/><BR/>Since I'm not from a frum family and never had the privilege of spending even a day of my life in a Jewish day school, I hope you'll forgive this dumb question: I'm aware that many men attend kollel for a number of years, but are there actually men who make this a career and never work a day in their lives? I honestly don't understand how they expect to eat, much less feed their wives and children. If you'll pardon my saying so, this sounds like a frum version of Peter Pan, the boy who refused to grow up.Shira Salamonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989302669175887512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89235608319059273322008-06-24T10:49:00.000-04:002008-06-24T10:49:00.000-04:00+1 Trilcat.Exactly!+1 Trilcat.<BR/><BR/>Exactly!Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-44080067895492515112008-06-24T09:17:00.000-04:002008-06-24T09:17:00.000-04:00Assuming that the support needed for grad school i...Assuming that the support needed for grad school is identical to the support needed for kollel, it's still not even vaguely similar. <BR/><BR/>Grad school is, by nature, for a limited time (2-3 years).<BR/><BR/>When you put your kid through college, grad school, medical school, law school, etc, you do so based on the assumption that in X number of years, they will be able to support themselves, and you've given them a nice, soft platform to jump off of. <BR/><BR/>Most secular (or Modern Orthodox) parents would not be willing to pay for their children to be in a grad school program which didn't have a built-in endpoint. (ie. a degree)<BR/><BR/>Even those who stay in academia forever eventually become lecturers, instructors, professors, etc. and start earning a salary.<BR/><BR/>If all kollel boys eventually became rabbanim... then we'd have a different situation.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16183891553795492212008-06-24T09:04:00.000-04:002008-06-24T09:04:00.000-04:00Shira, I had two kids while in grad school and we ...Shira, I had two kids while in grad school and we supported ourselves with money earned in grad school (maybe your son is in a grad school that doesn't pay?) and money that had been saved. Now, we look back and laugh at how decrepit our apartment was, but that's part of the bargain. For a little while we were even eligble for WIC (we thought it was pretty amusing and, no, we did not use it).<BR/><BR/>You can have kids in grad school - you just need to plan well...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-76792581787264620252008-06-24T07:50:00.000-04:002008-06-24T07:50:00.000-04:00Kollel is not the equivalent of graduate school. ...Kollel is not the equivalent of graduate school. The vast majority of graduate schools are market-driven; there are many more openings for MBA students than Philosophy PhDs because graduate schools try not to graduate more students than the market can handle. What job market will be able to absorb the thousands of men with an education in Talmud? <BR/><BR/>Also - graduate schools are assessment-based - for entrance, progession and graduation. What assessments are men in kollel subject to?Anonymous in Teaneckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14712885391619014289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-65558429005626852762008-06-23T20:38:00.000-04:002008-06-23T20:38:00.000-04:00I come from a different perspective: I'm a Conser...I come from a different perspective: I'm a Conservative Jew with a son in graduate school. (Yes, he's our only child--for those snoopy enough to want to know why, see <A HREF="http://onthefringe_jewishblog.blogspot.com/2006/07/park-your-ego-at-door-links-to-my.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.) From my own point of view, kollel is the frummeh velt's equivalent of grad school. There is, however, one major detail which, if you'll pardon my saying so, the frum community won't touch with a 10-foot pole, and that is that many, if not most, non-Orthodox Jews (and non-Jews, for that matter) wait until they're out of grad school and self-supporting to start their families. If my son called tonight and said he wanted to get married, I'd congratulate him, but if he called six months later and told us that his wife was pregnant, I'd give such a long lecture that he'd have to replace his hearing aid batteries. As parents, we are responsible for supporting our *children.* We are *not* responsible for supporting our grandchildren, barring, heaven forbid, some major tragedy. Our job as parents is to raise children in such a way that they're capable of supporting themselves and their children, should they be blessed with any. No able-bodied human being has a right to expect his or her parents to support him or her and/or his or her family indefinitely. It's also poor financial planning, as SephardiLady might say, since parents don't live forever. Seriously, what happens when the shver kicks the bucket? My father-in-law died when our son was less than a year old. If we'd been dependent on him as a major, or sole, source of income, we would have been up a creek without a paddle. Wherein is it written that a shver will live to see his grandchildren wed? This dependence is, in my opinion, hazardous to the financial health of the frum community.Shira Salamonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989302669175887512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70634311019614820062008-06-23T17:36:00.000-04:002008-06-23T17:36:00.000-04:00Anon 2:31 PM:My dad too! He went to the US army, a...Anon 2:31 PM:<BR/>My dad too! He went to the US army, and is now retired. He has time to study, and he's not supporting any of his kids - they put us all through college and two of us through grad school. (most of the above in Israel, where school is a lot cheaper)<BR/>After that, my parents have given us very generous gifts at times, but mostly stopped supporting us.<BR/><BR/>They certainly never bought any of us a car or a home.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-3070355970964043052008-06-23T15:57:00.000-04:002008-06-23T15:57:00.000-04:00B"H, I was fortunate enough to have my parents pay...B"H, I was fortunate enough to have my parents pay for my education, including seminary in E"Y and a good portion of college costs (I also took some loans and got some scholarships). However, starting as early as I can remember, they did NOT give everything I wanted or asked for, and when I went to Israel and college we had an understanding--they paid to get me there, and I was responsible for any expenses while there (transportation, food, hostess gifts for Shabbos, shopping trips, etc.). Now that I've finished my undergraduate education, I am paying my own expenses--rent, groceries, transporation, extra-curriculars, incidentals, etc. Often my parents will pay for my travel expenses if I come home for a visit, but lately I've been covering that too.<BR/><BR/>In addition, they'll occasionally pay for a big-ticket incidental, although usually only after I've already expressed an intention to pay for it myself, and such incidentals are also usually family-related. For instance, going to E"Y to visit my sister when she has a baby--they're going too, and I had already planned on going before I knew they wanted to go. I'm planning on taking care of my own living arrangements while there so as not to place an even greater financial burden on them. (As I see it, there is no reason for them to pay for me to stay in a hotel--I'm not that spoiled or high-maintenance!) However, I know and they know that this is an "extra" (and a HUGE one, at that!), not a necessity, and b"H they're able to afford it because they're no longer paying for tuition and other expenses for my sister or myself. Am I a little wary of the strings that may come attached to this gift? Absolutely. Am I taking it anyway? Yes, I am, and I am aware that this will mean that I have to put up with any strings with the happiest face I can possibly put on. I am also taking it because I know, realistically thinking, even if I paid for it myself, as my parents will be around for part of my trip, I would be subject to the same strings whether I paid for my ticket or not, so if they're offering, I might as well take them up on it. But at the end of the day, am I still thankful? ABSOLUTELY!!!<BR/><BR/>I was dumbfounded at the level of kafui tovah that was apparent in the letter to the Yated from the sons-in-law. How anyone could be that ungrateful is just beyond me.Scrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15911315552965685448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-71892575658113640402008-06-23T14:31:00.000-04:002008-06-23T14:31:00.000-04:00My father got smicha in his twenties and then went...My father got smicha in his twenties and then went to work. He was able to retire at 60, make aliya and now he learns. He payed for his children's years in Israel and their college education and now they are on their own. All of his children take torah learning seriously and he has set a wonderful example for them and his grandchildren.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34102680994745703032008-06-23T12:54:00.000-04:002008-06-23T12:54:00.000-04:00My parents didn't even pay for my wedding, and the...My parents didn't even pay for my wedding, and they certainly don't support us now! Ditto my husband's parents. Okay, except a little bit of afikoman money that is my inlaws' gift to us yearly... and they choose the amount, it's not a huge amount, and if they didn't give it one year, we wouldn't even complain to ourselves, because it's a gift.<BR/><BR/>I so don't understand the "support your children forever, even if you can't afford it" syndrome. The plan is to help them grow up to be self-sufficient. I'm in no way against full-time learning, but only if they can make it work, and I mean really work.miriamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14339767447913960853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-91635169925663875062008-06-23T09:55:00.000-04:002008-06-23T09:55:00.000-04:00I don't understand, nobody said it didn't happen i...I don't understand, nobody said it didn't happen in other communities.<BR/>Knowing that it takes place elsewhere does not make it right.<BR/><BR/>There is also a difference in something "happening" and something being the accepted way of things.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08512231582715592098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-78217719900673850792008-06-23T00:01:00.000-04:002008-06-23T00:01:00.000-04:00Larry,In terms of learning at 60, it will never fl...Larry,<BR/><BR/>In terms of learning at 60, it will never fly. I was told by several friends and rabbis trying to convince to take a year in Israel (and this in a MO yeshiva) that if you don't learn now at a young age you'll never have time or the desire to learn later in life. It was a load of baloney then, and it's a load of baloney now, but nonetheless everyone believes it.<BR/><BR/>tnspr,<BR/><BR/>You're 100% correct. Several couples in our building and other people we know are MO and getting married with 1 or more years of school left to finish and absolutely no way to support themselves. The family buys the ring for the girl, and the support continues from there. We know couples who have been totally supported for 2 years as they finish up school. While some are finishing up degrees that will lead to jobs with high salaries, others are not. Some have graduated, but have low-paying jobs and/or children immediately and need support.<BR/><BR/>I believe these parents thought the support would be temporary, but have no control over when their children have babies, or what careers they will choose, such that limited support becomes non-ending support.<BR/><BR/>Ditto the MO with the $1K strollers and fancy baby equipment. Our shul has become a parking lot for SUV strollers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85997323561893141762008-06-22T18:32:00.000-04:002008-06-22T18:32:00.000-04:00Larry,If those 60-something dads who are first sit...Larry,<BR/>If those 60-something dads who are first sitting down to learn have not had to support married grown children then they won't need to be supported by their married children when they stop working. Presumably they will have been able to fund retirement funds or put away money. We have such a kollel in our neighborhood--Kollel Baal ha'batim--and it consists of all retired men who now have the leisure to learn because they've "paid their dues." None have married children they are supporting and none are being supported by their kids.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10800204853428469122008-06-22T18:10:00.000-04:002008-06-22T18:10:00.000-04:00This is not an imitation of the larger non-Orthodo...This is not an imitation of the larger non-Orthodox and non-Jewish world or a "kosher version of the boomerang generation." When people send children to college, it is with the expectation that they will work hard and graduate able to and wanting to support themselves. My oldest child is 18 and going to college this fall and he and his friends are not going with the expectation that parents will pay while they raise families and do not work. Some of my friends may help their post-college adult children pay back loans because those adult children make lower salaries, but they have every expectation that college is the beginning of the road to self-sufficiency and economic independence. That is why college is considered a worthwhile investment. <BR/><BR/>From what I read here and elsewhere online, my 14, 16, and 18 year-old children are more responsible than these married so-called adults.Anonymous in Teaneckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14712885391619014289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16221564529044673702008-06-22T16:38:00.000-04:002008-06-22T16:38:00.000-04:00We're just imitating the goyim here.... the kollel...We're just imitating the goyim here.... the kollel phenomenon is not a return to the yeshivas of old, but a kosher version of the boomerang generation. In the non-Jewish world, kids go off to college, totally supported by their parents, and then move back home. Parents support them into their 30's and sometimes 40's while they spend their days hanging out with buddies. The kosher version is identical, except the parents give you a house and pay for your kids, while you hang out with your buddies in a kosher pool hall (yeshiva) bumming with the guys (learning).<BR/><BR/>The other funny thing I see---baby products are becoming more designer and deluxe ($1k strollers, designer diaper bags, etc), because by and large, the non-frum world is having kids at a later life stage when they are already established. They can afford $500 diaper bags when they have 1 kid at 40. You should see the expensive child accessories I see the kollel women using that I could never afford. The same people who imitate the non-Jews in being supported by their parents imitate the non-Jewish luxury child raising, but instead of doing it with a high-paying job, at the age of 45, with 1 kid, they do it at the age of 25, with no job, and 5-10 kids.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-66743242890000072812008-06-22T14:53:00.000-04:002008-06-22T14:53:00.000-04:00I was going to say what tnspr said. Most MO couple...I was going to say what tnspr said. Most MO couples who marry young are far from independent, especially in Israel with the army's obligations. Many girls are taking two years after high school before continuing their education--one or two years of national service and another year of "midrasha" (yeshiva for girls).mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.com