tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post3365837177104921440..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39475270484268080182009-12-06T15:55:26.409-05:002009-12-06T15:55:26.409-05:00Thank you critiquer.Thank you critiquer.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86735593139402624492009-12-06T15:15:34.974-05:002009-12-06T15:15:34.974-05:00I like what you say about down with the hysteria a...I like what you say about down with the hysteria and up with the chizuk.<br /><br />How come we aren't hearing of a "shidduch crisis" in the Israeli yeshiva world? Why don't the statistics apply to them?Critiquerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14788007492647988964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-62332844286523055122009-12-05T19:19:11.709-05:002009-12-05T19:19:11.709-05:00I'm a single in my early 30s with a Bais Yaako...I'm a single in my early 30s with a Bais Yaakov background. In my opinion, the problem is that there are a lot of very normal girls (I've met some of my greatest female friends at singles events) and not as many normal guys. Another issue is that people will not tell you anything negative about a guy you are checking out. They are all the greatest and so nice. After going out once, you find out all these things that are major red flags--and if you ask those same references about those, they always knew them but left them off the description in case you wouldn't find out, making you waste another evening and emotional effort.<br /><br />There also needs to be more intermingling between singles. It is so hard to get to know someone in the contrived nature of a shidduch date. It is so stifled, and everyone is on his or her best behavior.<br /><br />And as for this video, I find it majorly offensive. It is so good to know that my life is a tragedy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10396528289940228772009-12-05T19:06:37.623-05:002009-12-05T19:06:37.623-05:00To Megapixel;
The chassidshe oilim does not have a...To Megapixel;<br />The chassidshe oilim does not have a shidduch crisis because they are very homogeneous. Among the Litvish and Chabad, there are a variety of types such as BT vs FFB families.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50566951889865208942009-12-04T13:34:58.135-05:002009-12-04T13:34:58.135-05:00Many Modern Orthodox people do use a more modified...Many Modern Orthodox people do use a more modified shidduch system. Also, there is a spectrum of Orthodoxy and there are people that straddle different communities. Perhaps this is less common in the NY/NJ regions. But out-of-town, there are people who socialize in various groups and would be more open to meeting through various venues. Or at least this is my perception.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-73880590166817810522009-12-04T10:49:57.873-05:002009-12-04T10:49:57.873-05:00JS,
Actually, many MOs do us shadchanim and that ...JS,<br /><br />Actually, many MOs do us shadchanim and that may be part of the problem. Despite being in work, social, and religious environments in which intermingling of sexes is very common, they won't consider a date with anyone unless properly "set up". It creates a kind of hashkafic psychosis. No wonder so many aren't married yet.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70680168568989606382009-12-04T09:45:01.584-05:002009-12-04T09:45:01.584-05:00I haven't heard anyone in the MO world describ...I haven't heard anyone in the MO world describe this as a "crisis" the way it's done in the more RW communities. Furthermore, MO's don't use shadchans or at least the rules and procedures are so incredibly different than the RW world as to hardly justify using the same word (shadchan) for each.<br /><br />There may be pressure to marry, and to marry younger in the MO world, but no one is looking at the Upper West Side, for example, and saying there is some sort of crisis. A female friend of mine just got married at the "ripe old age" of 28 after pursuing a PhD. No one looked at her as some nebech unfortunate case before she was married.<br /><br />It's just completely different, imo.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-22832846771679547582009-12-04T06:25:28.508-05:002009-12-04T06:25:28.508-05:00There is a family in Baltimore that used to host c...There is a family in Baltimore that used to host co-ed seudat shlishit every week I think with the express purpose of providing a venue for men and women to meet casually. I met at least one married couple who had met at their table, but I heard about it from others.<br /><br />Maybe we should start a movement to host co-ed 3rd meals on Shabbos. Call it something catchy, start a website to promote it. Or just start doing it! <br /><br />Yes, there are some singles who wouldn't even go to someone's house for a meal if singles of the opposite sex were there, but I bet this type of venue would be considered quite non-threatening to most. And you could even have separate seating so people could meet at the same table, but could separate themselves as much as they wanted to.tdrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01150295936306651670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63176375190283432872009-12-04T01:58:47.905-05:002009-12-04T01:58:47.905-05:00I found this to be a brilliant piece of blog. You ...I found this to be a brilliant piece of blog. You have made it thorough.<br />Keep it up!!<br /><br />This is Nancy from <a href="http://samsonblinded.org/news/us-national-intellegince-diplomacy-wont-stop-iran-8767" rel="nofollow">Israeli Uncensored News</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50597231323208996612009-12-04T00:21:11.539-05:002009-12-04T00:21:11.539-05:00"Social maintenance requires 2.1 births/woman..."Social maintenance requires 2.1 births/woman."<br /><br />Immigration -- mostly from Eastern Europe -- is making up for the below replacement fertility levels in Western Europe. <br /><br /><br /><br />"What exactly is the MO shidduch crisis?"<br /><br />Lots of singles who aren't getting married. It is particularly noticable in parts of Manhattan.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50836629684159716552009-12-03T22:55:32.579-05:002009-12-03T22:55:32.579-05:00charlie hall thanks for that comment, I have been ...charlie hall thanks for that comment, I have been wondering about that. alot of people have been suggesting more casual meetings of girls and boys, but of course that would be considered unacceptable in yeshivish circles.<br />but you say it doesnt work anyway as proven by the MO world.<br />by the way I have heard the chassidic "oilam" does not have a shidduch crisis. any ideas as to why?megapixelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-92145028519770611182009-12-03T22:15:58.180-05:002009-12-03T22:15:58.180-05:00What exactly is the MO shidduch crisis?What exactly is the MO shidduch crisis?JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-47920189956214296672009-12-03T17:08:43.449-05:002009-12-03T17:08:43.449-05:00Looking for a shidduch is like shopping for shoes....Looking for a shidduch is like shopping for shoes. If you wear a really odd size and are very particular about color, heel height, toe shape, brand, etc, chances are the store won't have what you want. If you have an average foot and are open minded about color and style, chances are that you will buy shoes.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-21284291463047502572009-12-03T10:57:16.473-05:002009-12-03T10:57:16.473-05:00In the US as a whole, the "spinster rate,&quo...In the US as a whole, the "spinster rate," to use an antiquated term (women that will never marry and have children) is approaching 40%. Social maintenance requires 2.1 births/woman. For the 60% to maintain that, childbearing women need to average 3.5 births/woman... France, realizing that convincing the childless to have children is pointless, is incentivizing those with children to have more, since it's easier to convince, with financial incentives, a woman with 2 kids to have 3, or a woman with 3 kids to have 4.<br /><br />In the Chareidi/Yeshivish/Chassidic world World, 86% of women get married, with 6.72 children/woman. In the Orthodox World, it's probably around 75%-80% marrying (we don't have good numbers, so presume it's less), at 3.39 births/woman.<br /><br />Both populations are growing nicely, and most women that want to get married are getting married.<br /><br />We do NOT have a crisis. Now, for the women that want to get married and aren't, they have a personal crisis. Perhaps we need to do things to help them, since they are Jews in need. However, the system that works for 86% and produces offspring at 3 times the replacement level should NOT be scrapped because 14% are missing out.<br /><br />If you aim to reach 100%, but your tweaks result in people not forming happy couples and you drop to 82% and increased the divorce rate, you made things worse.<br /><br />Social engineering is either working or not destructive enough to matter, the Orthodox World is growing...<br /><br />The communal bankruptcy seems to be more of a cliff we're running off with our institutions on the brink of collapse, the Shidduch world, as gross, mysogynistic, and disgusting as it is, is successfully marrying off 86% of right wing girls and producing 6.72 children/women, it's NOT the problem.<br /><br />Inability to properly feed and educate those 6.72 children seems more of a concern than can we tweak the numbers and get to 6.95 or 7.1 children/woman.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-42554949016816149072009-12-03T10:53:39.982-05:002009-12-03T10:53:39.982-05:00I agree with Rosie, that numbers aren't the on...I agree with Rosie, that numbers aren't the only reason for not being married. What is the percentage of single mesivta graduates aged 25-29 (or for argument's sake, 30-34)? My guess is that it is not insignificant, just that these "boys" (young men) are not seen as a crisis because it is assumed they will have further opportunity to marry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10302339335519886562009-12-03T10:43:19.136-05:002009-12-03T10:43:19.136-05:00While no one should marry someone that they don...While no one should marry someone that they don't want to be married to, that does not mean that lack of men caused these women to be single. They made a choice not to marry those men who came their way. I know of many older women who are presented with lots of names that they turn down and I also know of single women who met men who were interested in them but they turned them down. That is not an indication that there are too few men; it just means that there are too few for the type of selection that those women want.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51264091971253340372009-12-03T10:20:54.026-05:002009-12-03T10:20:54.026-05:00Rosie: We have no way of knowing that these women...Rosie: We have no way of knowing that these women did have a chance to marry. I'll bet that many of them did not. More important, should someone marry someone they don't believe they are compatible with (or dislike or are turned off by) just for the sake of marriage? I certainly hope not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34516596921178563762009-12-03T10:16:09.607-05:002009-12-03T10:16:09.607-05:00It is not just about numbers. Most single women wh...It is not just about numbers. Most single women who are considered older had at least one chance to marry someone but the passed it up. Some people have emotional barriers to marriage and some never had the mazal to meet someone that they wanted to spend the rest of their lives with.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85809396918691911722009-12-03T07:18:31.179-05:002009-12-03T07:18:31.179-05:00re: polygamy
The thought of it doesn't disgus...re: polygamy<br /><br />The thought of it doesn't disgust me in the least.<br /><br />On the contrary, as a full-time working woman married to a full-time working guy I have always thought that it would <i>ideal</i> to have another woman around the house.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36105999792555240132009-12-03T00:37:10.355-05:002009-12-03T00:37:10.355-05:00"I know many will disagree with this, saying ..."I know many will disagree with this, saying that it is not practical to get married without accumulating a nest egg, or a degree and the means to accumulate the same. "<br /><br />Didn't Rambam say a man should have a job and a house before getting married?<br /><br />"Let's go back to mixed seating at the receptions for simchas. Let's have more mixed learning. "<br /><br />We have all that in my community but still have a lot of singles who aren't getting married.<br /><br />"I would suggest all these single women go over to the MO world"<br /><br />Or maybe not -- the MO world has its own shidduch crisis, despite the fact that there is no shortage of opportunities to meet persons of the opposite sex. I strongly suspect that the reasons for the MO shidduch crisis are quite different from the reasons for the yeshivish shidduch crisis. (Is it a crisis when it has been a problem for decades?)Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29261605650039510332009-12-02T22:56:13.344-05:002009-12-02T22:56:13.344-05:0050.1% of live births are male. However, more boys...50.1% of live births are male. However, more boys than girls die in childhood. Thus, there are slightly more women than men in the adult world. This does mean that when the music stops there will be some women who do not have husbands, even if all of the men were perfect candidates and married someone age-appropriate.<br /><br />Marriage is a good thing. But it's not the only good thing, and there does need to be a bit of acceptance and understanding that it will not be right for everyone.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491386537225283381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51771424733264439442009-12-02T21:46:59.049-05:002009-12-02T21:46:59.049-05:00(for the record, i'm a guy who grew up in a mo...(for the record, i'm a guy who grew up in a modern orthodox community, went to yeshiva for high school, and learned full-time for 2.5 years before starting college. This gives me a somewhat unique perspective on some issues)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-44176518719884266502009-12-02T21:37:23.842-05:002009-12-02T21:37:23.842-05:00While its straight-up in the torah thats its bette...While its straight-up in the torah thats its better for a person to be married, I cringe every time i hear of a girl who has "been dating since 19". I remember when i was 19, i sure wasnt ready to get married then. When i was 22, i thought i was mature enough to be ready for marriage. When i actually started dating at 24, i realized that i hadnt been ready earlier. While many agree that girls mature faster than boys, there is no "crisis" if you have 24 or 25 year old women who are unmarried. Its a shame that they have not yet met their bashert, but that does not make them an object of pity. While its advantageous for a couple to get married when they are at a spiritual high, if the marriage will have many problems (or chalilah, not last) due to the lack of maturity and experience that comes with age, it seems much better to promote keeping them infused with that spiritual high during their single years of college, grad school and work, so when theyre finally ready to go out and meet their bashert, they are significantly more mature and much more sensitive to the preciousness of keeping a daily learning seder. Why should it only be on the men to be 'koveah ittim', when clearly the women can benefit tremendously from being 'koveah' on themselves. Seminaries and Beis Yaakov's don't exist just to educate them UNTIL marriage - its a starting point, to train them to seek out learning and spiritual growth, even while in grad school, med school, whatever. Shadchanim should recommend to their charges that boys appreciate a girls chashivus of torah nearly as much as vice versa. Single girls (in their early or mid twenties) who make for themselves a daily or weekly seder of learning, especially of mussar seforim written for women, can find themselves in much more eligible situations, simply by the way it changes their attitudes and behavior when it comes to shidduchim. I dont believe for a second that the number of singles (under 30) is significantly more disproportionate in favor of the men; its more likely that data on single men is more sparse, thereby skewing the bell curve somewhat. And one thing that i never tolerated was "shtick". While there are some rules necessary to maintaining proper decorum through ones dating cycles, there are quite a few more which have done nothing but exacerbate the problem.<br /><br />@Megapixel: A man is permitted to have multiple wives l'halacha (except for the ban of Rabainu Gershom, which was designed to prevent travelers from settling in new communities and marrying locally, while keeping their first wife an aguna back in his hometown; tho it applies universally). There is a lot of debate, in various places of the torah on the wisdom of having multiple wives, all the while considering that while some occasions warranted it (yibum, for example), it may have been generally frowned upon. That said, there are many noted halachic authorities who state that while the time period of the ban has expired, the ban still remains because it has not been officially revoked or something like that. Either way, polygamy of any sort is not a very appetizing concept.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-45418187629136426852009-12-02T20:40:45.077-05:002009-12-02T20:40:45.077-05:00"It treats women as being valueless if unmarr..."It treats women as being valueless if unmarried."<br />not valueless, but definitely, an object of pity.<br /><br />the day I agree to polygamy is the day it becomes okay for a woman to have more than one husband as well.<br /> I would rather stay single all my life than share a husband. what a disgusting thought.megapixelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-17766145452527079372009-12-02T20:37:16.471-05:002009-12-02T20:37:16.471-05:00excellent post, I agree with so much of what you s...excellent post, I agree with so much of what you say.<br /><br />I think bringing it all down to math numbers and age gap configurations really disregards something that we have always believed in i.e. 'bashertness'. suppose I am pushed into dating guys within two years of my age , i would never have met my husband who is 4 1/2 years older than me, and that would be just as much of a shidduch crisis!!<br /><br />my view of the problems: <br />~singles with too many expectations and demands<br />~the ludicrous notion that a 19 year old girl is superior to a 23 year old. (and i got married at 19)<br />~the high expectations for the boys- to be a "good boy" is really a pretty tough thing. Easier to be a good girl. Thus the discrepancy.<br />~the BY system works better than the yeshiva system, thus more girls looking for that yeshivish<br />icon of a good boy, than there exist that iconic example of perfection in manliness.<br /><br /> I think that the goal of this type of publicity should be The attitude change--put it into the heads of people that a girl older than 21 or closer in age is perfectly okay so people would be more open to considering these girls. Alarming singles will lead people to make unwise decisions which will lead to the next great crisis. THE DIVORCE crisis. and the CHILDREN FROM BROKEN HOMES crisis.megapixelnoreply@blogger.com