tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post3770808501792467788..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33391156582478674152017-07-06T15:41:19.997-04:002017-07-06T15:41:19.997-04:00Find out how THOUSAND of individuals like YOU are ...Find out how <b>THOUSAND</b> of individuals like YOU are <b>working for a LIVING from home</b> and are living their dreams <b>TODAY</b>.<br /><b><a href="http://syntaxlinks.com/money/?promotion=blogspot_m453" rel="nofollow">CLICK HERE TO START IMMEDIATELY</a></b>Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29207554297505461672017-02-04T06:05:34.960-05:002017-02-04T06:05:34.960-05:00You can now get A .925 Silver Chain online with an...You can now get A <a href="http://silver-chain.syntaxlinks.com/r/925SilverChain" rel="nofollow"><b>.925 Silver Chain</b></a> online with an excellent deal.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-56971957213021714332009-08-23T06:11:26.269-04:002009-08-23T06:11:26.269-04:00Looking forward for more of your postings. I know ...Looking forward for more of your postings. I know everyone is eager to read informative topics like yours. Thanks for sharing.Best Credit Cardshttp://www.creditagogo.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-31582795932868171582009-07-21T04:04:41.413-04:002009-07-21T04:04:41.413-04:00There are so many methods by which people can make...There are so many methods by which people can make money online.cash gifting leadshttp://www.secretcashfast.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51088376329513980172009-07-19T08:42:53.045-04:002009-07-19T08:42:53.045-04:00Just laughing at the thought of giving the book to...Just laughing at the thought of giving the book to my cousin's daughter (along with a check) for her wedding next month. No doubt they would wonder why we gave it. After all, it wouldn't apply to THEM.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80525658848479330852009-07-17T00:40:14.494-04:002009-07-17T00:40:14.494-04:00You can buy the Total Money Makeover in a 10-pack ...You can buy the Total Money Makeover in a 10-pack on his site for $10/book. We bought a box of them, and give them as chassunah presents with our check.DRFannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80651634682096511822009-07-16T23:19:58.156-04:002009-07-16T23:19:58.156-04:00Miami Al-As far as I understand, plenty of tuition...Miami Al-As far as I understand, plenty of tuition committees are more than happy to let you dip into equity. <br /><br />I think the joke may be on them in the end though as property values are down, down, down.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-55507451780651212932009-07-16T16:57:19.567-04:002009-07-16T16:57:19.567-04:00BTW, when I said "hide in their house" I...BTW, when I said "hide in their house" I didn't mean literally hiding things there (though I guess with Savings Bonds and the like you could), I mean paying down the mortgage.<br /><br />If you have a 500k house, with a 300k 1st mortgage and a 100k HELOC (for simple numbers, 80% LTV), if you paid 50k to pay down the HELOC, it wouldn't be "savings" and you could borrow it back after the scholarship decision.<br /><br />This is more daring in today's world of reduced credit, but on paper lets you move cash in and out of your house, "hiding" it from financial aid considerations.<br /><br />Those trying to maximize college financial aid used to be encouraged to leverage up the home with the maximum mortgage possible, and putting that cash, plus any other cash that needed to be "hidden" into annuities. Annuities were retirement vehicles and not considered for financial aid, and your home mortgage payment was untouchable for consideration, even if it seemed high. IOW, someone that bought their house 2 years before sending their kid to school (the look back period), instead of 20 would normally be at an advantage in terms of payments because of more "good debt" in the mortgage, hence the refinance.<br /><br />In tight times, cash is king, but cash is what the committees look to extract, not equity.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29732429611143173122009-07-15T22:13:21.754-04:002009-07-15T22:13:21.754-04:00I don't mean to suggest that anyone should lie...I don't mean to suggest that anyone should lie on scholarship applications. I'm just pointing out that frugality is not rewarded by schools. This really happened: When we moved to this area, we had still not sold our first house. So we were paying mortgages and property taxes on 2 houses for quite a while. The school I was sending 2 kids to at the time offered zero reduction. They said, "You have $--,--- in savings." I answered that we don't have that money anymore because most of it was depleted as the downpayment on our new house, and we needed to draw on savings to cover the double mortgage. The logic of that made no impression on them. Just the fact that we had managed to save a sum of money proved that we did not need a scholarship even when that savings was no longer in the bank.<br /><br />I know people who live way beyond their means demanding huge scholarships from schools and camps and getting them. The wife hasn't taken a job for years because she figures anything she earns will just be snapped up by the schools, so there is no net gain to the household.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-67854735571498968212009-07-15T17:17:58.188-04:002009-07-15T17:17:58.188-04:00Ariella makes a likely, but sad, point. I can'...Ariella makes a likely, but sad, point. I can't endorse cheating on applications. I know that when cash flow won't allow for tuition we will have to look to alternatives. Like Michaela, savings provide me a level of security I need. <br /><br />Ultimately, tuition is a problem when cash flow won't cover the bill. Naturally, we are at this point, hence the blog.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-82233372625312696062009-07-15T16:23:12.429-04:002009-07-15T16:23:12.429-04:00Ariella,
This couple is a few years from havi...Ariella,<br /><br /> This couple is a few years from having kids so Day School is 7-10 years away. That is plenty of time for them to put a solid foundation together. If they are both in graduate school, they should both have large incomes when those bills arrive, that means that scholarship won't become an issue until a few years down the road.<br /> When it comes time to go before the scholarship committee, it's time to hide assets. You can always dump the cash in the house, and while they scream about 401(k)s that they consider "over funded," if you have cash you are in a good negotiating position. If the school in 15 years wants 60k, and they are only willing to pay 45k, and the school argues "cash your your IRA," you're in a much stronger position to tell them to take a hike if you have 45k to offer another school to take your kids.<br /> The emergency fund can be moved, at that point, to a semi-liquid investment (2 - 5 year CDs) and simply tell the school it isn't up for consideration. Any cash that you don't want them to touch, either don't disclose, or dump it into the house, they aren't going to demand that your mortgage your house for one more year of tuition (well, they will, but only the insane agree).<br /> The rules of enforced poverty are only on the "marks..." the hard working middle class... the upper middle class have negotiating room, because the schools aren't so quick to turn away people that are paying more than the average amount.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-24384102931497219742009-07-15T15:56:46.999-04:002009-07-15T15:56:46.999-04:00No kids yet, and even if I were to have a baby tom...No kids yet, and even if I were to have a baby tomorrow morning, tuition concerns would still be a few years away. But do they honestly look at all your assets to determine how much you will pay? And if we're supposed to raid our 401k's, do you honestly expect us to have anything to give you in 40-50 years when you hit us up for our grandchildrens' tuition? Sheesh!<br /><br />SL- when I said we had substantial wedding money, I really meant it. We both come from very wealthy families and communities. Suffice it to say that dozens of family friends wrote us 1k checks; relatives gave us even more, one even gave us 10k! We absolutely have enough to keep some liquid in case of emergency and invest the rest (obviously we would diversify that). <br />I am unable to drive, so we will only ever have one car- and what we have now should work for several more years. We will not even consider buying a house until we are finished with school (2 more years)because we may need to move come graduation, and we don't want to be stuck. At this point, the biggest financial concern for us would be kids.jbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-28200208146364074992009-07-15T14:54:32.523-04:002009-07-15T14:54:32.523-04:00To Michaela @ 11:07 AM:
You raise a good point in...To Michaela @ 11:07 AM:<br /><br />You raise a good point in that tuition costs can be a disincentive to save. Nevertheless, I think its definitely important to save inside one's 401k, IRA, etc. I don't know what Yeshivas generally do, but at least at the college level, the amount one has in a retirement plan is not factored into the financial aid equation.<br /><br />If I were to apply for a day school scholarship and an administrator would tell me to raid my 401K to pay, you can guess where I'd tell him to go. I'd be curious to hear from everyone what day schools think of savings outside of retirement plans: are they totally fair game? Do the schools expect you to impoverish yourself before considering giving you a break?Oh, whatever...noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-84683431995897066542009-07-15T12:10:51.960-04:002009-07-15T12:10:51.960-04:00I want to second what Ariella said. My husband an...I want to second what Ariella said. My husband and I lived (and live) frugally. We built up savings, put money in our Roth IRA's, and always lived well below our means. We taught our children to say, "We don't need it." Then day school tuition hit. We cannot afford day school tuition on our salaries. Even if we were to pay zero taxes and live on bread and water, we could not afford full tuition. But if we were to ask for a scholarship, we would be told to spend all of our money first. I'm sorry. I cannot, will not give up my retirement money. I am surrounded by frail elderly in daily life--I cannot believe that I will be able to work forever. My husband or I could lose a job. We could get sick. A child could require hospilization. I really cannot imagine living without savings.Michaelanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-44075417185584820622009-07-15T11:07:25.603-04:002009-07-15T11:07:25.603-04:00Thanks for the review, SL.
Miami AI, I agree with ...Thanks for the review, SL.<br />Miami AI, I agree with your point of view. But the flip side for those who have to pay yeshiva tuition is that the parents who spent their money and had a good time get massive scholarships because they simply don't have the money to cover the costs while those who lived frugally to save money are told they can pay in full because they have thousands in savings.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46811455631953365402009-07-15T09:51:50.941-04:002009-07-15T09:51:50.941-04:00JB, if you are a big reader, I would recommend the...JB, if you are a big reader, I would recommend the following:<br />Money.com (or the Magazine) -- very basic info, target audience is 50+, but the general advice is spot on, and will get you started toward understanding finance in 10 minutes a day<br />Rich Dad / Poor Dad -- It's a made up story around real estate, about someone getting loaded during the previous boom, but the concepts of assets vs. liabilities and thinking about wealth is terrific... I wouldn't follow the investment advice, I would use it to make you think<br />One Up On Wall Street -- Peter Lynch's book from his Magellan Days, an informative read about investment from someone successful, enjoyable and fast<br />Fool.com -- Some of the basics on investing are great<br />Millionaire Next Door has been recommended for those with no background, but I can't vouch.<br /><br />Some general advice, open Roth IRAs now... your tax bracket is likely low (at least for where you'll be at in 50 years), and you should qualify, otherwise, do a Traditional or non-deductible IRA... you can convert any assets in an IRA to a Roth IRA in 2010 regardless of income, so at a minimum make 2009 and 2010 contributions.<br /><br />If you have 401(k)s at work, max them out. If you are in your 20s and do those two things, you are investing 20k/year/person, so 40k/year between the two of you. If you can do that for a few years, even if you can't invest money during the child rearing days, you will wake up at 50 with a LOT of your retirement paid for based upon 2-5 good years in your 20s.<br /><br />Re: downpayment, real estate crash aside, there is no real reason to put a large downpayment on a house. You can acceptably leverage yourself, and if it is a house you CAN be in for 10-15 years (I hate starter homes, because a market correction leaves you trapped in too small a house).<br /><br />Front load retirement, it's easiest to do now, and the Roth treatment is more significant now. When you hit your peak earning years, your expenses are WAY higher.<br /><br />Build up a down payment, but the minimum you need, cash is king, equity is not. You can always walk away from an upside down house (at a hit to credit of course), you can never get the cash lost in a downturn back, and if the market rises, who cares what you put down.<br /><br />Emergency fund, I was untouchable at 22, being out of steady work for almost a year (months of contracting followed by months without) wiped out my savings and left me back in debt, but without the cushion, BK would have called. Finding a new job is easy when you are 22-25, harder and longer as you get older because you are more expensive and more specialized.<br /><br />I would suggest setting up an Emergency Fund and two car funds. Put a $300-$400 in each car fund each month if you can, so when you NEED to buy a car, you don't have to do it all on credit. Besides, if you are used to putting $400 down for the future car, the $400 payments for the actual car don't break the budget.<br /><br />Our two older cars breaking at the same time, combined with childcare expenses had our budget go up by almost $2k/month in a 3 year span... $2k/month after taxes is $35k/year in pre tax income that we'd have to be making extra to keep our lifestyle the same.<br /><br />Early 20s is an easy time financially, we did Roth IRAs but nothing else, I'm kicking myself that we went out to dinner 3 nights/week instead of putting away money like we did the 18 months before we bought a house.<br /><br />Basically, bank the money like you have the future expenses, then when you have them, stop the excess savings, but you'll be ahead of the game.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86201262765656772562009-07-15T09:23:51.571-04:002009-07-15T09:23:51.571-04:00tesyaa-Someone put a hold on he book and when I we...tesyaa-Someone put a hold on he book and when I went to renew online, I was told that my time is up. That's fine. I managed to make the review. <br /><br />Now, what to check out next?<br /><br />conservative sciefi-I love these quotes. Thanks!Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-15052275885979934662009-07-15T09:05:30.430-04:002009-07-15T09:05:30.430-04:00Here is a quote about Sir Moses Montefiore:
There...Here is a quote about Sir Moses Montefiore:<br /><br />There were then no omnibuses or other conveyances at hand such as we have now, and if there had been, he was of too saving a disposition to make any unnecessary outlay on his own person; he used to keep a strict account of the smallest item of his expenses. It was not with the object of complaining, or of regretting his early mode of life that he gave his friends these descriptions; his object was to impress on the mind of the rising generation the necessity of working hard and spending little, in order to make their way in the world.conservative scifinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-22466983532004384392009-07-15T06:58:41.000-04:002009-07-15T06:58:41.000-04:00SL - hope your library is online. First of all - ...SL - hope your library is online. First of all - you probably don't have to return the book; you might be able to renew it online. You can also browse for investment books online, reserve them and pick them up at your leisure. And you probably have a network of libraries available to choose from online :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70105591166543573692009-07-14T23:51:43.208-04:002009-07-14T23:51:43.208-04:00jb-As you will likely discover, expenses rise an i...jb-As you will likely discover, expenses rise an incredible amount once the student days are over. My post-college emergency fund was a fraction of the emergency fund I need now that I have a family.<br /><br />Unless you have a massive sum of wedding money that far exceeds a downpayment, money for a car if you don't already have something that you can continue to use for a number of years, etc. . . I'd just hold on, put money into accounts that earn as much as possible (try bankrate.com), continue to be frugal as can be, and think about getting settled and buying your place. <br /><br />If you still want to invest, maybe just take a small amount that you won't feel bad if you do lose it. <br /><br />And I will work on trying to find some basic investment books that I like. In fact, I have to return the Dave Ramsey book tomorrow, so I have a good excuse to take the kids on a library outing.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39446481072233680782009-07-14T21:10:17.588-04:002009-07-14T21:10:17.588-04:00Thank you to those who have offered tips. We do us...Thank you to those who have offered tips. We do use Quicken, so we have a good handle on where our money goes each month. We are both students, so we only work part time, but we supplement by tutoring in the university's writing center a few hours a week. <br /><br />Basically, we spent the year and two months just figuring out how to run a household, and stay within our budget, which is quite limited. Naturally, we live in a cramped apartment, cook all our food rather than buying prepackaged, and try (rather unsuccessfully...) to keep our apartment neat in the absence of cleaning help. <br /><br />But now we feel ready to start sticking our toes in the waters of investing. We have our wedding money- not an insignificant amount- sitting in a savings account doing nothing, and we know it could be growing. We just don't know how to do with it, other than leave a portion in the savings as an emergency fund. <br /><br />Anyway, thanks again for all the tips, and SL, I would love to see some posts on investing/books on investing. Keep up the great work!jbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41795719722923709342009-07-14T19:59:24.362-04:002009-07-14T19:59:24.362-04:00I am so happy to see you comment on Ramsey's b...I am so happy to see you comment on Ramsey's book. I've wanted to know your thoughts about it for a long time. :)Jendeishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11960909534349311223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-91412638044014401242009-07-14T19:08:39.255-04:002009-07-14T19:08:39.255-04:00Avi-Thanks for your comments. I do agree with you...Avi-Thanks for your comments. I do agree with you that risk taking can result in great wealth (as well as great disaster). I do like some of the points in the Rich Dad, Poor Dad book, but I still wouldn't recommend it to the average person.<br /><br />I don't believe that Dave Ramsey's sensible program eliminates the possibiliy of starting business, but how should one go into businesses? How much risk should one take? Everyone is different, but my own advice might include steady employment for one spouse, building reserves and learning under an employer before going out on your own, not spreading yourself too thin, etc.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-6068174489516206202009-07-14T15:46:43.570-04:002009-07-14T15:46:43.570-04:00SL - Playing devil's advocate here: Rich Dad, ...SL - Playing devil's advocate here: Rich Dad, Poor Dad may be a terrible system to follow, but the key insight is worth understanding (and expanding upon): if you work for someone else making a standard salary you will never be "rich" (and, when combined with living within your means, you'll probably never go broke, either. Unless you send your kids to yeshiva and buy kosher food). If you start a business or take on real estate risks, you have a chance at getting "rich" (and, in a very high percent of cases, of going broke).<br /><br />Our current Orthonomic system seems to depend on rich mega-donors funding a large chunk of the cost for everyone else. If everyone follows Ramsey's sensible living program, where is the next generation of risk taking entrepreneurs going to come from?Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36378096061480068352009-07-14T15:22:00.064-04:002009-07-14T15:22:00.064-04:00JB,
When my wife and I were newly starting out, w...JB,<br /><br />When my wife and I were newly starting out, we listened to Bob Brinker's money talk, who suggested the emergency fund and investing in no load mutual funds.<br /><br />We followed this advice (and lived well below our incomes for several years, living in a very very inexpensive apartment in an inexpensive city). We built up savings to the point that we are now quite comfortable, can afford our day school tuitions (we do make decent salaries), and have significant, though not nearly sufficient, savings for retirement (which is still 20+ years away).<br /><br />Besides living below your means, even if that requires living in a not as nice place or with your parents, my first other major recommendation is to automate your savings. Arrange for a certain amount of your paycheck to be deposited into a bank account for savings and don't touch it untill you are ready to invest it or for emergencies. Dollar cost average into mutual funds automatically, as well.<br /><br />Second, every so often (quarterly, semiannually, whatever), calculate your net worth and present it to your spouse. In the early years, it should always be increasing (since most of your savings will be in the bank or money market funds) and the stock market will only make up a fraction. Eventually, when your investments are high enough, your savings rate may be below the fluctuations of the stock market.<br /><br />Sephardi Lady,<br /><br />The only quibble I have is that I think, in general, a 30 year loan is safer, since you can always pay it off in 15 years if you have the cash (and a loan without a prepayment penalty). Otherwise, if you have a tighter month, on a 30 year loan, you can always pay the lesser full amount and be okay, rather than not have enough to pay the 15 year level payment.conservative scifinoreply@blogger.com