tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post3869943801134827179..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger117125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-30181756657558296152009-04-23T18:18:00.000-04:002009-04-23T18:18:00.000-04:00BTs are usually pressured to fit in and are genera...BTs are usually pressured to fit in and are generally scorned upon if they voice any objection to the way that their children are being educated. The chinuch that is being imparted is in need of an overhaul, not just because of work ethic but in and of itself the chinuch does nothing to inspire a person to greater spirituality. Many today find no meaning in it and drop out.<br />Because kids that attended secular colleges had higher intermarriage rates, frum people avoided it. Part of the problem was also that pre-marital sex and drugs was rampant on college campuses. People were afraid that if they allowed secular culture to penetrate their homes, their children would soon go astray. These were not simply needless worries however, it went to the opposite extreme. While actually 3 centuries of the American college experience (Yale is really old), have influenced America's Jews, a 3000 year history of educating Jewish children among Jews is even harder to change. Although children were forced to attend public school in countries such as Russia, this was not the desire of religious parents.<br />I already mentioned the value of online colleges and I think that those should be encouraged. Usually things remain status quo in the frum community until some outside force causes change. Anyone who swims against the tide usually pays the price of ostracism. That is why I keep saying that although change is needed it probably can't or won't be sudden or drastic.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-68107894666665379062009-04-23T14:14:00.000-04:002009-04-23T14:14:00.000-04:00Rosie wrote, "Most of the time what they can't pay...Rosie wrote, "Most of the time what they can't pay for is tuition, the same way that non-Jews who earn similar salaries could afford to feed, clothe, and house their families but cannot do the extras. We can't say that they don't support themselves because they do. It is the other trappings of Jewish life that they cannot afford. "<br /><br />Then they can't support themselves as Jewish adults. Hence the college push from people here. A college graduate from a decent school can command about $35k right away, probably $50k in NYC. A challenging field like engineering adds $10k/year, a useful graduate degree about $10k or so... so you're talking about a 24 year old that can earn $50k-$60k/year, add a spouse at $40k, and you're up to $100k/year... that puts you in the top 5% of US earners, and able to support many of the trappings of life.<br /><br />Add work ethic, level of effort, and your young couple will, in a few years, be earning $150k, and even if they top out there, they can probably afford some reasonable degree of education costs... if everyone was pushed towards college+graduate school, WAY fewer people would NEED scholarships, tuition could stagnate, and we'd be in a better situation. How many schools collect more than 50% of their "billed tuition." You could halve tuition if everyone could pay, and that would help.<br /><br />The problem is, as education becomes more and more important for a middle class life, and fewer and fewer Orthodox men and women are getting marketable educations, the burden is falling on a smaller and smaller percentage of the population.<br /><br />Over 50% of Americans start college in some form, what percentage do you think this is of Jews (I'd guess 70% or higher), and what percentage of Hareidi Jews is this (I'd guess 30% or lower).<br /><br />Some is cultural, don't spread rumors that women that get a graduate/professional degree before having children that they went to school because of infertility. Online schooling is helping many Americans that need to work their way through school, etc.<br /><br />There is something to be said for the American college experience... living with and going to school with a variety of people would give our young people a broader perspective... something still slightly valued in the MO community, and probably seen as a real negative by the Hareidi community. You would think that the ranks of the BT in all communities would convince people that their lifestyle can compete in the marketplace of ieads, but two centuries of mindset is hard to change overnight.Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-22524131368102908072009-04-23T11:56:00.000-04:002009-04-23T11:56:00.000-04:00Rosie, we're approaching a cliff, and might have a...Rosie, we're approaching a cliff, and might have already fallen off of it. Families took on massive amounts of debt based upon increasing portfolios (if they put it away before the crazy boom led to massive spending) and house values to carry the day.<br /><br />That has run out, and every month that we don't address this is one month more debt, and unless you have gobs of income, one month of debt will usually take 6-12 months to clean up. If we wait until the leadership that is on the payroll of this madness to act, it'll be when the schools stop paying the Rabbeim, and at that point, we've wiped out many of the families into a whole that even bankruptcy won't help.<br /><br />Sending your child to a Yeshiva in another town that won't teach your child what they need to know, is a gross abdication of parental responsibility. I know people doing it, and it's awful. I also watch a fellow BT friend that is a partner in a law firm sending his children to the local right wing Yeshiva. Watching the son of this smart man and equally smart wife struggle to read at his grade level is very distressing to me... he took his public school education, went to decent college, then a great graduate school, and used that education to make good money is setting his children up to have a materially weaker life, and I think that that is sad.<br /><br />The Orthodox and Haredi worlds are collapsing financially, and I'm worried what is going to happen to my already depressed home value when the frum premium goes away when the Frum Jews are all in small rented apartments because they lost everything struggling with one more year of overpriced crappy education.<br /><br />If you want to change the attitude towards earning a livelihood, stop sending your children to a school when for 8 hours/day they are taught by people that hold earning a livelihood in contempt, and telling them that these are holy people that you have to show the utmost respect for.<br /><br />Learning Gemara properly is like studying any other work of Greek philosophy, it sharpens the mind for logical reasoning, mathematics, etc. Quite frankly, debating Gemara, like debating Kant and Rousseau, will sharpen the logical mind.<br /><br />Unfortunately, our schools teach rote memorization and "appeals to authority..." Something isn't true because a Rabbi said it, and Rabbi said it because it is true. That's a HUGELY important distinction that is lost on our Yeshiva students.<br /><br />Regarding Talmudist as career path... there are jobs in communal activity, teaching, Kiruv (salaried positions), etc., that require or benefit from Semeicha. That makes it a viable vocation.Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-79273154788553055702009-04-22T21:33:00.000-04:002009-04-22T21:33:00.000-04:00The idea in yeshiva is to concentrate on learning ...The idea in yeshiva is to concentrate on learning and not to worry about what will be later. Usually what happens is that when a person has reached the point that he must support himself, then he begins to see what type of job that he can do and what he must do to get that job. There are lots of frum people with jobs; even jobs that require training and they went through the yeshiva system with little or no job skills training. Most of the time what they can't pay for is tuition, the same way that non-Jews who earn similar salaries could afford to feed, clothe, and house their families but cannot do the extras. We can't say that they don't support themselves because they do. It is the other trappings of Jewish life that they cannot afford. Remember that most public high school kids put most of their waking hours into school work and maybe a small amount per week in studying their religions. Should this be what frum Jews do too?rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-5277215693714874132009-04-22T19:41:00.000-04:002009-04-22T19:41:00.000-04:00Rosie, you cannot be serious. A person needs A LO...Rosie, you cannot be serious. A person needs A LOT of skills to run a business, even one that has been passed down through the family. The intellectual benefits of studying Gemara are narrow, focusing on logic, deductive reasoning, and legal codes. (I know people who have learned lots of Gemara who have no common sense or ability to apply knowledge to new and different situations). You want boys to work, but you don't want to give them the skills to do so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-61765695339212593752009-04-22T19:13:00.000-04:002009-04-22T19:13:00.000-04:00SL, someone is endorsing it because it widely exis...SL, someone is endorsing it because it widely exists. I am sure that people always learned some practical math and the halacha regarding the education of children was that they had to be taught to read (Hebrew, that is). Schools were set up specifically so that students could learn to read. A Jew had to be literate but not necessarily in the language of the country that he lived in. But then remember that the masses were illiterate as well. Remember that in many frum communities today it is common to go into a family business and that may be passed from father to son.<br /> I see that often yeshiva educated boys learn very quickly because the mind is sharpened by Torah study. Most frum people who grew up in America speak English already and usually figure out how to read and write from living in the culture. If a person wants to get a degree, there are plenty of options today, especially online. <br />What I feel should change is the attitude toward working and making a living. It makes me sick when I hear someone say that her daughter will only agree to marry a "learner" and then the little p'chetch waits forever because her daddy can't support a guy who learns and no serious learner wants to depend entirely on his wife for support. It also makes me sick when some 19yr old's shidduch resume states that she wants a very chassidishe guy with a college degree and a great job. If that is the case she should marry a 30yr old professional BT and forget about the chassidishe part because those guys usually take the slow boat through college.rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50021415438286969042009-04-22T18:53:00.000-04:002009-04-22T18:53:00.000-04:00Times have changed since Talmudic times. The "R's...Times have changed since Talmudic times. The "R's" of communication and math are essentially for everyday living and making a living. <br /><br />I highly doubt chazal would endorse a schooling system that does not emphasize proper communication and math skills until after the time of desperation and AFTER the sensitive periods where such skills are best learned.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-71881112273101232362009-04-22T17:46:00.000-04:002009-04-22T17:46:00.000-04:00OK, Dave I also just googled the statistics. There...OK, Dave I also just googled the statistics. There is a growing number of Muslim Arabs from Iran coming to Dearborn. In addition, I found an article about how the parents forced the school board to close on the Muslim holiday of Eid because if 80% or more of the students in a school do not attend on any given day, the school does not get government funding on that day. There was one year when on the holiday of Eid, only 3 of a school's 700 children were in attendance. Since then, they have separate gym classes, close on Muslim holidays, serve halel food as well as letting the parents have say in other matters. While I may be off base in comparing it to Gaza, I am right on about the role of parents of one religion who come to the public schools as a group with their demands.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-8037017449407241052009-04-22T17:21:00.000-04:002009-04-22T17:21:00.000-04:00Dearborn, Michigan has a population of just over 1...Dearborn, Michigan has a population of just over 100,000 people, of whom about a third are are Arab-Americans. And not all of those are Muslim.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-12015913360767563832009-04-22T17:10:00.000-04:002009-04-22T17:10:00.000-04:00Ahuva, have you ever heard of Dearbornistan? It is...Ahuva, have you ever heard of Dearbornistan? It is a community in Michigan (Dearborn, MI) with probably more muslims than in the West Bank, and maybe even in Gaza. If they are in Dearborn public schools, they are there in vast numbers. Al is right about Sikhs being the turban wearers but may not realize something when it comes to yeshivas. Al, these boys do not come home at night. You put them on a train or plane and you see them on Sukkot, Chanukah and Pesach. If there is a simcha in the family you will see them again. Not much time there for dad to take out the tools and teach the son. I haven't seen many well paid Talmudic scholars either but maybe Al has run into some who make money at it. <br />I think that when the mishnah spoke of teaching the son a trade, it was speaking of apprenticing a boy in a specific trade. Parents were advised to seek out a "clean" trade for their sons so it was preferable to be a perfumer rather than being a tanner. While studying certain academics may make one able to get into college, which will eventually lead to a career, I am not sure that it is directly involved with learning a trade or necessarily absolves the father of his obligation. As we said, the obligation is very non-specific in halacha. The Talmudist may study math<br />for it's practical applications in his life but he isn't being hired as an actuary.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-73437627659709841582009-04-22T16:43:00.000-04:002009-04-22T16:43:00.000-04:00While I understand that studying Talmud is learnin...While I understand that studying Talmud is learning a trade, the sheer number of boys and men studying Talmud combined with the relatively limited demand for their services (at least in paying jobs) gives me cause for concern about this field. There's a glut of Talmud students. If you count the probability of marrying for money, it's not quite as bad, financially, but that's not going to happen for most either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72188721222238226332009-04-22T16:36:00.000-04:002009-04-22T16:36:00.000-04:00I'm not really sure if we're all reading the same ...I'm not really sure if we're all reading the same comments at this point. The issue is not yeshiva vs. public school. It doesn't matter if the yeshiva grants a HS diploma or not. If a child is in yeshiva, then he is learning skills (such as those needed to become a rabbi/critical thinker/etc.). The child is learning language skills, debating skills and all kinds of things that will help them become adults. A child sitting at home is not learning anything except to depend on his parents.<br /> <br />The impression that I get is that we're talking about a sizeable, insular community. Unless that community is Pottsville, we are probably talking about a community with a not-insignificant Jewish population. We are not talking about him being the only kippa-wearing Jew in the school system. (And even that is survivable.) There are probably lots of other Jews (frum or not) who are going to help keep the anti-semitism (if there is any) down. <br /><br />Muslims and other religious communities are considerably LESS likely to band together in a group because there isn't a requirement for them to live close to each other the way a Jew needs to live within walking distance of a shul. There might be only one turban-wearing or headscarf-wearing kid in the school. The point is that they still get some sort of education. They still learn how to grow up. A child sitting at home all day isn't going to grow up.Ahuvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313911386166259760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-20494071491826024872009-04-22T16:30:00.000-04:002009-04-22T16:30:00.000-04:00I think a Hindu in a turban is likely to get picke...I think a Hindu in a turban is likely to get picked on, because Hindu men don't wear turbans. The Indians wearing turbans are Sikh.<br /><br />Rosie, nobody said "secular education," we said path to a livelihood. That can be college and a professional track, college and the white collar service industry, bookkeeping and basic accounting, entrepreneurship, sewing and tailoring, cooking, auto mechanics, etc.<br /><br />Some of those involve secular subjects, others do not, but all provide a path to a livelihood that would allow you to earn a living and support your family (probably with a similarly trained working spouse).<br /><br />You are obligated to teach your son a trade.<br /><br />SL, 100% correct about a gifted Talmudist, there is employment for those, so it's learning a livelihood.<br /><br />The emphasis on secular education and college is because that provides tremendous upward mobility for earning power. Look at a salary survey, and look at the costs of being Frum. Figure out the balance of labor between husband and wife (50%/50%, 60% - 40%, 67%, 33%, 100%/0%, whatever)... then find a career path that hits your numbers by the time your first child hits kindergarten... and grows to support them through high school/college.<br /><br />It doesn't have to involve secular studies, but it HAS to involve marketable skills.<br /><br />Yeshivot don't break Halacha, they teach a certain set of subject matters. The obligation is on the parents (and under Halacha, the father), to teach his son a livelihood that supports his family... if the Yeshiva that he spends 10 hours at can't do that, then it falls on the parents to do so at night.Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72678556061121013102009-04-22T16:09:00.000-04:002009-04-22T16:09:00.000-04:00Anything is possible but my point is that you can'...Anything is possible but my point is that you can't posken halacha from the mishnah. Otherwise you marry them off at 18 and the next verse says that they pursue a career at 20!<br />Many yeshiva don't grant a high school diploma. It doesn't matter if you are smart, stupid, possibly marrying a girl with a rich daddy, etc. They all handicap individuals the same way. I sent my kids to yeshivas but now those who are not practicing rabbis are trying to catch up with secular knowledge in order to get into college. My daughters married boys who succeeded without secular education. It is a challenge but that is the yeshiva system that we currently have. I don't think it holds water to say that it is a breach of halacha that yeshivas don't have secular education. Impractical? Yes. Breach of halacha, NO. <br />There were several dropouts this year, although none as young as him. The parents could have tried to do something as a group if they really didn't want public school. I agree that sitting on one's tuchus all day is wrong. As I said before, I am not totally opposed to public school but reserve it for last resorts and think that there is strength in numbers. Years ago, before yeshivas were so widespread, many frum people attended public school but they were a visible minority. I don't think that Jews are perceived the same as other religious minorities. Probably the muslims and other minority religious groups send kids in groups so that the staff and students get used to that type of diversity. I don't think that a Hindu in a turban is as likely to be picked on in today's world as a religious Jew.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19499371453374402812009-04-22T16:01:00.000-04:002009-04-22T16:01:00.000-04:00I guess I'm experiencing some culture shock here. ...I guess I'm experiencing some culture shock here. My own (public ) high school put students on a track. <br /><br />If you were in Honors and Advanced Placement, you were not required to take any vocational education. Academics were your vocation and it was assumed that you would go onto a college, University, or one of the Military Academies. <br /><br />If you were not enrolled in a full load of honors/advanced placement courses, you had to add at least one vocational elective to your schedule. It was assumed that you would probably be attending junior collge or going into the armed forced and would be working your way into a profession and therefore needed some marketable skills. <br /><br />If you were not carrying a college prep course load in all subjects, you were enrolled in a vocational track. Some students had work-study. Others had auto shops and interns. And, yes, there was a vocational certificate that went with your diploma certifying that you had taken a certain course load and had a "specialty." <br /><br />I simply don't understand the attitude that learning a vocation can wait. I might think that the kollel movement is out of control, but a boy who is gifted in Talmud is on a vocational track. A student who is mastering advanced composition and taking Calculus and AP Bio and Chem is on a vocational track, although what vocation might not seem clear for a number of years. A student who is learning the ins and outs of hospitality or mechanics is learning a markeable skill and is on a vocational track. <br /><br />A 14 year old truant sleeping away the day who does not bother to learn Torah or math is on the track to disaster. How any Jewish parent can sit around and let it be, I will never understand.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90298027293850351062009-04-22T15:38:00.000-04:002009-04-22T15:38:00.000-04:00Rosie, we're also focused on his "earning...Rosie, we're also focused on his "earning power," because at 14, he's just 4 years away from obtaining his majority... 4 years coincidentally, is the length of time high school takes... if he is entering the secular world (professionally, not socially), those are some of the most important years in terms of lifetime earning power.<br /><br />Sure, there are high school dropouts that start multimillion dollar businesses, and Harvard educated plumbers, but when you talk about income, the #1 correlated factor is level of education, and the #2 correlated factor is level of parent's education, and unfortunately, the differential between those two factor isn't too large.<br /><br />This makes sense, educated parents read more to their children, teach them more in the home, and also have more money (see factor #1) to give their children a leg up.<br /><br />So, he isn't a Yeshiva -> Kolel guy, his Yeshiva studies ended at 14, he isn't interested in an informal learning environment... he's rejected nurturing childhood safety zones, okay, childhood over, time to grow up.<br /><br />Being a parent is more than just loving your kids, and it's more than just indulging them, it's helping them become adults. They need to pick the best option from their group of choices... the guy isn't an academic, so a top college seems unlikely, is public schooling -> HS diploma + an AA a reasonable possibility? If not, is some sort of skilled trade (car mechanics earn good livings) possible?<br /><br />But he is 4 years from his majority, and right now a truant, so each month that goes by is a month less of education available to him.<br /><br />BTW: plenty of people go back to school later, upgrade their skills, and improve their careers... but suggesting that it's equally easy to get a high school diploma from age 14-18 as in your thirties with a few kids that you are supporting on minimum wage is being dishonest.Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-28903680146065106672009-04-22T15:36:00.000-04:002009-04-22T15:36:00.000-04:00It isn't exactly a halacha to get an education tha...It isn't exactly a halacha to get an education that will enable a person to enter a profession. "A father who does not teach a son a trade teaches him to steal" is the lashon that is used. There is no specific requirement to send a child to a school that teaches a trade and unless it is a vocational school, most public schools give a general education that is not specific to a trade. That a father has to teach his son a trade is as halachichally valid as saying that he must marry off the son at age 18 as it says in the mishnah. Let's not turn sending a child to public school into a way to uphold halacha. It is a way to keep him off the streets. If he decides to learn, it will educate him, but there is no halachic requirement that he support himself if someone else is supporting him (providing that he is engaged in Torah study).rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33226433705927465972009-04-22T14:50:00.000-04:002009-04-22T14:50:00.000-04:00Then doesn't Al's point stand? If his family does...Then doesn't Al's point stand? If his family doesn't have money and he's unlikely to marry the daughter of a wealthy family since he isn't getting a yeshiva education, isn't he halacically required to get an education that will enable him to support a family?<br /><br />Isn't that halacha more important than this minhag of isolation from the secular world/public schools?<br /><br />Sure, he would have dealt with this issue after his yeshiva years, but it sounds like his yeshiva years are over-- which means that it's something to deal with now. He's not going down the "learner" path, so his parents are obligated to start pushing him down the "earner" path. <br /> <br />When one of my relatives had to leave the yeshiva, his parents put him in public school. They didn't want to do it, but home schooling wasn't an option. He learned to live with being a kippa-wearing, kosher-eating Jew with a "weird" sounding name in a secular school. He learned to bensch quietly and unobtrusively. I don't think it was nearly as bad as his parents thought it would be.Ahuvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313911386166259760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57357239635631502612009-04-22T13:43:00.000-04:002009-04-22T13:43:00.000-04:00If they had money, he would be still sitting in ye...If they had money, he would be still sitting in yeshiva whether he learned or not!rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41700883717993316642009-04-22T13:12:00.000-04:002009-04-22T13:12:00.000-04:00Non-Jewish teenagers can and do grow beards. I we...Non-Jewish teenagers can and do grow beards. I went to school with many boys who did. Individuality is praised in the secular world; they don't all look alike! My public-school educated orthodox cousin had a beard in high school without any issues whatsoever. <br /> <br />In a public school, you will see kids with kippas, Sikh boys with turbans, and muslim girls with headscarves. Diversity, in the secular world, is considered *normal.* We are considered the odds ones for insisting that everyone look and act the same! There are boys who grow a beard at the first opportunity even in the rural deep south. <br /> <br />This is really starting to sound more like fear of the unknown than any logical reason not to put him in a school.<br /><br />I think we're worrying about the 14-year-old's earning capacity because there are really two tracks in the orthodox world-- learners and earners. If he's not going to be a learner, then he needs to be an earner. Unless, of course, he's independently wealthy (which it didn't sound like).Ahuvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313911386166259760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19629772667840518042009-04-22T10:24:00.000-04:002009-04-22T10:24:00.000-04:00Ahuva, what I mean is that we can't just say that ...Ahuva, what I mean is that we can't just say that all appearance issues are minhagim. Some are based on Torah such as the beard. If we are talking about fitting into public school, a teenager with a yarmulka and beard (as soon as that is physically possible) will have a different appearance. If his appearance will cause him not to fit in, it is not only his dry clean only suit, black hat, and dress shoes that are a problem. <br />Also the commandment that a man works for 6 days and rests on the 7th cannot be used as the commandment to support one's family any more than the mishnah that tells a man to marry at age 18 can be used. A man who has another source of income does not have to interrupt his Torah studies the same way that a man at 18 who is occupied with Torah studies does not have to marry until later. That is why I cannot relate to arguing about a 14yr old's earning capacity. It is unhealthy for him to veg and be spoiled and stay home. His yeshiva would not have been at all concerned about what he would do for a living. He would have dealt with it after his yeshiva years.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-75854926311306142462009-04-22T10:06:00.000-04:002009-04-22T10:06:00.000-04:00Rosie, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Pe...Rosie, it's not an all or nothing proposition. People *do* wear yarmulkas in public schools and in business; it happens all the time. Beards are also allowed in the workforce, although admittedly a "neat" trimmed beard is better received than one that has never been touched by scissors. <br /> <br />I don't understand why you seem to think that a Jew has to hide his religion in order to exist within the secular world.Ahuvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313911386166259760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-87974544677960711242009-04-22T08:26:00.000-04:002009-04-22T08:26:00.000-04:00I would say the following about the minhag of levu...I would say the following about the minhag of levush:<br />A person can change his clothing to meet his needs such as he can wear stained clothing to shecht animals. To most Chassidim, removal of the beard is a breach of Torah law even though there is a heter to shave with an electric razor. Most will also not go bareheaded. Chassidim have been known to go to court to keep the beard and yarmulka and still serve in the US military. That is one reason that few Chassidm enlist, even though kosher food exists in the military and time off is given to attend synagogue on Shabbos and yomtovim. What I am trying to say is that there is an extent to which a Jew cannot change his levush to hide his religion (unless it is a matter of true p'kuach nefesh).rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32624360586222434062009-04-21T20:46:00.000-04:002009-04-21T20:46:00.000-04:00Ahuva, my apologies if my directness was seen as a...Ahuva, my apologies if my directness was seen as an attack, and Rosie, if you felt that way, I apologize. I felt the temperature of the conversation rising and talking past each other, so I felt that directly referencing the contention might help, I did not mean to attack Rosie, and my apologies for the attacks that were unintended.<br /><br />You said, "saying that his type of frumkeit is best discarded as it gets in the way of his learning a trade. It is the same to me as saying that heredi Judaism has to go."<br /><br />Let me make a clear change, I am not saying that it should be discarded for getting in the way of his learning a trade, I'm saying that it MUST be discarded IF it gets in the way of him learning a trade.<br /><br />Learning a trade and earning a living is a obligation of Jewish men. Dressing like a Hassid is a custom. If dressing like a hassid prevents him from learning a trade, he is obligated to follow that ACTUAL Halacha, and learn the trade.<br /><br />For most Hassidim, there is no problem, they are able to be Hassidim and learn a trade. For this particular 14 year old, there is a problem, so he needs to follow the obligation.<br /><br />If my family Minhag was to eat cheese every Wednesday at 9 PM (to pick something at random), and I was at a dinner at 8PM and had a steak, I would have to follow the Halacha and not eat cheese, not say, "well, I can't follow Halacha, it gets in the way of my custom."<br /><br />Learning a trade is not an optional thing, it is a Jewish obligation.<br /><br />I don't think that we should be capping family size if we can avoid it... my problem is that for the middle class, we have capped it, because the Yeshiva/Day School system has them subsidizing the poorer Jews. I think that it is rather unfair that a dual income family has to think long and hard about another child, but the impoverished can have as many as they want because it doesn't cost them.<br /><br />Hence my pattern here... cheaper schooling for those without means, more income through better skills/education.<br /><br />If we want to keep having lots of Jewish kids, which is WONDERFUL, we need the means to support them... and everyone needs to pull their own weight.Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-8508498709235591252009-04-21T18:10:00.000-04:002009-04-21T18:10:00.000-04:00I'm not disagreeing, Rosie. If he isn't academical...I'm not disagreeing, Rosie. If he isn't academically strong, then he should be in a program that will give him the skills he needs to support a family.<br /><br />What he cannot be is sitting home doing nothing.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.com