tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post4265695865922465393..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-66790196491933149182009-11-02T00:39:25.279-05:002009-11-02T00:39:25.279-05:00JD2be - while it is true that people with degrees ...JD2be - while it is true that people with degrees can't find jobs because of the recession, it is also true that many businesses are failing because of the same recession.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-42202361870147826772009-11-02T00:10:35.395-05:002009-11-02T00:10:35.395-05:00OMG - I so disagree with this post.
One - educati...OMG - I so disagree with this post. <br />One - education is needed. If you don't teach children math they will never learn how to think logically. By the time they are adults their brains are already wired and learning logical thinking = math becomes impossible. Same applies to communication skills. One must learn how to communicate well and properly, and learning English in school in childhood is a way to acquire that skill. It is true that those Chinese immigrants do not have a full grasp of an English language, but they learned how to communicate in their native language, so they are able to apply that skill in the professional environment.<br /><br />Two - Not everyone has a personality to be a businessman. There are many professional people who are doctors, lawyers, scientists, engineers and etc. who are highly educated and make tons of money, but they are unable to run a successful business. Shortcutting these people by eliminating a path via higher education will force them to suffer in poverty and will remove the benefits of accomplishments of these individuals from our society.<br /><br />Three - fields such as programming, arts and etc may not require a college degree, but without a full grasp of the secular society people with these skills will not be able to progress far, because they will not understand the assignments and will lag behind in their application. For example if I need to set up a web page to promote sales of rap songs it would be very stupid to hire a web designer who knows nothing about rap culture.<br /> <br />Four - I read Poor Dad, Rich Dad and he did not say that education is bad or that people shouldn't be employed. In fact he described how he had jobs in various sectors and how that provided him with education that enabled his making lots of money. What he claims is that specializing in one field is risky, while a specialist is very valuable in his field and very well paid, once that field is outgrown with modern technology and progress, this person is left behind without any other skill to fall back on.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27916110424593451122009-10-18T14:45:36.332-04:002009-10-18T14:45:36.332-04:00Just wanted to second what others have written abo...Just wanted to second what others have written about the educational systems in much of Asia. The guest poster did not do his homework.<br /><br />Also, my wife and I both do very well as employees.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86788285859801570882009-10-16T08:45:49.627-04:002009-10-16T08:45:49.627-04:00There are entrepreneurs and then there are entrepr...There are entrepreneurs and then <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ykz9n5s" rel="nofollow">there are entrepreneurs</a>. :>)Larry Lennhoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578073969473815180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-52979800250573052812009-10-15T17:50:51.026-04:002009-10-15T17:50:51.026-04:00Why is there a fear in our community of education....Why is there a fear in our community of education. We are a people that has always prided itself on education. Our entire religious system of laws and traditions is a written series of discourse between well educated men (educated in the sciences, arts, literature, history, culture, etc...).<br /><br /><b>Since when is knowledge the enemy?</b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-49307934626814640352009-10-15T17:19:52.244-04:002009-10-15T17:19:52.244-04:00It would be interested in knowing if the percentag...It would be interested in knowing if the percentage of business owners is different among the OJ population than in the general population.<br />October 14, 2009 4:56 PM<br /><br />a friend of mine once analyzed this type of statement saying since chassidim generally dont have education skills (refering to another post by orthonomics) they have to go into business, which is why you (supposedly) have a high number of "rich" chassidim vs "rich" MO (and other jews; or for that matter the general us population). since more chassidim are self made businessmen, there is a higher number of them (not necessarily %age) who are very successful.<br /><br />which leads me to say:<br /><br />2. many entrepreneurs are really just "buying" themselves a job by starting their own business.MIMedinat HaYamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-47367509687601385042009-10-15T17:17:23.804-04:002009-10-15T17:17:23.804-04:00Some facts instead of suppositions would have been...Some facts instead of suppositions would have been nice here. Because of the number of dialects spoken in India it is ENGLISH which is the primary language, and has been since around the time of the British Raj. The Asian schooling systems do NOT emphasis independent thinking but count on rote memorization and learning.<br /><br />Re: "it seems the entrepreneur path:is most like the traditional "old world" Jewish professions: baker, blacksmith, wagon driver, farmer, etc<br />avoided secular education & anti-semitic issues." It should be noted that at the time that these professions were both available and necessary secular education for the masses was not available in large parts of the world, and/or where available did not go beyond 6th grade. A high school education was not universal and was available only to the upper classes, and only some of them. College was strictly the province of the upper, monied classes. The Jews did not freely choose these entrepreneurial professions--it was what was available, both to them and most of the secular world as well.<br /><br />My parents owned their own business for many years. They made sure that all of us had a college education and beyond because they saw that education as a tool for NOT having to be in business. They worked long hours and no, they weren't "rolling in dough." <br /><br />Employees don't make much money? <br />Depends on the level of education, the skills attained, the field and the drive of the employee. Those in our neighborhood who "made it big" in business, with only one exception, all began their working lives as employees, got experience in how the business world works and yes, had college degrees as well.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32717340062552971992009-10-15T12:22:48.144-04:002009-10-15T12:22:48.144-04:00I want to add the following:
I'm all for entr...I want to add the following:<br /><br />I'm all for entrepreneurship. What I am against, however, is the constant denigration of secular education in our communities. You want to promote and boost entrepreneurship? Great. But, don't do it by claiming secular education is unnecessary or obsolete or leads to a lack of financial success.<br /><br />As for teaching entrepreneurship, it can be done to an extent. I took some classes in it at college. It's really no more than a business class with the focus on innovation. The thing that can't be taught is the fact that people have different tolerances to risk. Some people throw caution to the wind and try something, no matter how crazy, and don't care if they fail. Others wouldn't start their own business if it had a 99% chance of being successful.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-49683616409757671502009-10-15T12:15:02.491-04:002009-10-15T12:15:02.491-04:00Any discussion along these lines needs to include ...Any discussion along these lines needs to include an analysis of the current administration's planned interference in the economy, including the imposition of new regulations, obligations, and taxes on small business owners.Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53917224286061842452009-10-15T11:38:28.193-04:002009-10-15T11:38:28.193-04:00Man this post made me angry.
I hate personal atta...Man this post made me angry.<br /><br />I hate personal attacks, but reading this post was difficult and further emphasized for me the need for a strong secular education.<br /><br />The entire attitude of this post is wrong. As someone who has a strong secular education and is married to a woman with a strong secular education, I can attest to the fact that it's quite possible to do very well working for others. We both have very good jobs and make good salaries. And I would note that the level of risk we took on to get and maintain our jobs/salaries is negligible.<br /><br />This post comes from the same mindset I encounter routinely from yeshiva bochurs when asked what I do. Namely, "Oh, I could be doing that if I wasn't learning. I always had a knack for that." Great, you and everyone else has a knack. Get someone to hire you based on a knack. What all these people lack - and what the post seems to forget - is the incredible dedication, hard work, education, and skills that are required to make a living whether one is working for someone else or self-employed. The jobs/salaries that my wife and I have are the product of YEARS of hard work and making the right decisions no matter how difficult they are.<br /><br />It's a complete fallacy that "working for yourself = rich" to use the same laughable equation the post has regarding working for others. My uncle runs his own business and I worked for him for several years as his business is in the same field as I am. My uncle worked for others for over 20 years, got an MBA and other advanced degrees, and had tons of contacts and experience before going into business for himself. Now, over 25 years later is he FINALLY comfortable and successful. Still, he's by no means "rich." And you know what? He works like a dog, hardly ever takes vacation, and has stress knowing it's all on him and that the next venture might fail and he could lose a significant amount of money. The idea that someone can magically put up a sign and customers will come is just fantasy.<br /><br />Furthermore, this kind of mindset leads to the arrests for tax evasion and fraud we have seen recently. At a minimum, secular education is needed to keep one abreast of taxes, permits, employment law, etc. And besides, what job doesn't require some degree of secular education? I never read a gemara on how to bake bread or cakes or how to sew garments or fix plumbing or cars.<br /><br />As for getting a degree from a yeshiva, unless they have a serious program that teaches real skills, you're kidding yourself. In the secular world, degrees matters. Maybe in the frum world you hire yossele even though he has no degree, but in the real world degrees matter, resumes matter, skill sets matter, and proper English matters. Having a degree from a top institution opens doors. Having one from a lesser known school doesn't. I used to be in the math/science fields and it's simply not true that "calculus is the same everywhere." The top schools teach it better, teach it in more depth, and force you to complete more difficult work so your knowledge is deeper.<br /><br />Anyone can program. It's really not all that difficult. But, find me someone who understands algorithms - someone who understands different ways of approaching a problem and proving a solution works and will work within certain bounds. The degree you get will determine whether you can program or whether you can solve problems. And the difference in salary between the two is astronomical.<br /><br />Maybe more thoughts later.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-56442334094709263102009-10-15T11:25:30.117-04:002009-10-15T11:25:30.117-04:001: Good luck tring to find a job with a "cert...1: Good luck tring to find a job with a "certificate".<br /><br />2: (It seems to me that) The poster is looking to get "rich" or "comfortable", not "able to pay tuition". Looking at it from his/her perspective, it makes sense to either get rich, or strike out & not pay tuition (after all, you are bankrupt) than have to struggle with "work/life balance"gavra@worknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50906134288591898082009-10-15T11:10:38.575-04:002009-10-15T11:10:38.575-04:00According to the U.S. Small Business Administratio...According to the U.S. Small Business Administration, over 50% of small businesses fail in the first five years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14811535649260612302009-10-15T10:42:43.566-04:002009-10-15T10:42:43.566-04:00Thinking: What field are you in with you and your...Thinking: What field are you in with you and your friends losing their jobs every few years? IT?<br /><br />The growing areas of the future where more kids need to be directed is life sciences/biotech and alternative energy. However, these often need advanced degrees.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39547545895207604312009-10-15T10:14:46.644-04:002009-10-15T10:14:46.644-04:00From my own experience and the experiences of many...From my own experience and the experiences of many of my friends the entrepreneurship mindset is what has many of our community currently unemployed. I have conducted several workshops and reviewed dozens of resumes and can honestly say that the reality is that I would hire a non OJ with 2-3 years of experience over an FFB with 5+ years of experience. I can hardly get any of the recruiters at my company to look at the resumes I send them!<br /><br />How can I help someone get a job when they went to Touro in the 90's for business, have a 4 month certificate in IT from Pace, worked at IDT for 7 years in Sales and now want a job as a software engineer?<br />I am not exaggerating, this is a typical request I get. There is very little career path, progression or development of skills.<br /><br />The hardest one's to help, and these are the one's I see most often, are the entrepreneurs who now want to get into the workforce and hope to get paid $100K+ because that was what they were able to make in a good year on their own.<br /><br />Our best bet as a community, and this I am taking from a look at my own situation and the situations of many of my friends, is to <b>force</b> our kids to get a proper education, proper internships and experiences, look for growing fields with high potential and to always develop their skills. Many of my friends and I have lost their jobs over the past few years, I have lost mine 3 times in the past 5 years, but BH because of our <i>Hishtadlus</i> we were employable and able to find new jobs relatively quickly.Thinkingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-65009222957471840432009-10-15T10:05:58.620-04:002009-10-15T10:05:58.620-04:00For everyone making the negative comments about th...For everyone making the negative comments about this not being a useful post, it does bring up some interesting questions and a different perspective. I don't think I've seen the issue of entrepreneurship discussed on this board before. I, for one, would love to hear more specific, concrete information and examples about how this is taught (if it can be taught) or at least fostered and some real life examples and success stories in today's economy and how this applies in the frum community. Most of the successful small entrepreneurs I know started off very small from work they did in their teens and had a passion for. For example, someone spent their summers during high school and college working for someone else painting houses. After college, he started his own house painting business, starting small with one truck and some ladders. Now in his late 30's he has several crews and does about 300 houses a year (I'm guessing at about 8 -10K per job, that means at least 1000 profit per house). Another person loved working on cars, got a job helping after school at a garage, saved up and rented a small garage with just two bays. Gradually he expanded his business and has a repair shop with 6 bays, 5 employees and is always busy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-67836855632498172812009-10-15T10:02:07.012-04:002009-10-15T10:02:07.012-04:00I can attest to the fact that a high level of educ...I can attest to the fact that a high level of education does not necessarily translate into high level of income. However, I still believe there is value to education for quality of life beyond gaining more disposable income. I know that is heretical to say in today's frum climate in which you can allow just about anything that "really" is assur like college, the internet, money laundering (kidding!) for the sake of paranassa. But this was not always the attitude in the yeshivishe world. See http://kallahmagazine.blogspot.com/2008/06/what-justifies-yeshiva-bachurs-study-at.htmlAriella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-35617885376635426632009-10-15T09:23:12.130-04:002009-10-15T09:23:12.130-04:00Abbi-I'd love a guest post (orthonomics at gma...Abbi-I'd love a guest post (orthonomics at gmail dot com).Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-38121738797890281062009-10-15T00:35:46.989-04:002009-10-15T00:35:46.989-04:00As others have pointed out, Asian entrepreneurs in...As others have pointed out, Asian entrepreneurs in the U.S. are succeeding despite an education of rote memorization; the guest poster has the strengths and weaknesses of U.S. vs. Asian education systems exactly backward. In any case, these are the outliers, the people smart enough or crazy enough to move 8,000 miles from home and start a business. There are Americans making a fortune in China - it's the opposite side of the same coin, and a terrible example for making generalizations.<br /><br />A solid classical education is statistically a very good bet - and keep in mind that many of the most successful entrepreneurs started out as corporate employees first. You can also be quite entrepreneurial within larger organizations - in many cases, you have to be - providing both opportunities for personal and financial growth and lowered risk.<br /><br />That said, there is a kernel of truth to the post, too. Too many of us steer our children and ourselves into "safe" occupations with limited upsides. Entrepreneurship 101 ought to be a required course in our high schools. The community needs more people who own revenue-generating assets, and there are so many people who really would thrive with more personal control on the type of work they're doing, more ownership, and even more risk. However, I would make this mandatory for everyone, if only to disabuse the idiots of the notion that owning a business is automatically more lucrative than "working for the man." I'm really tired of talking otherwise sensible people out of real estate or multi-level marketing "opportunities" simply because they were never exposed to basic finance and risk/reward calculations.Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-56259812265722007552009-10-15T00:05:09.499-04:002009-10-15T00:05:09.499-04:00"I appreciate the effort to include alternate..."I appreciate the effort to include alternate viewpoints on the blog and to stimulate discussion. But if the discussion is simply "Wow, your guest poster doesn't really know very much about the topic," I'm not sure how productive that is.."<br /><br />I completely agree with offwinger. If you would like the inside story of how starting a startup works from the ground up, I'm happy to share our family's experience.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90358228198466694692009-10-14T20:07:14.385-04:002009-10-14T20:07:14.385-04:00Entreprenuership doesn't provide a risk-adjust...Entreprenuership doesn't provide a risk-adjusted return. I've ran and sold a business, it's a LONG hard slog, the tax system screws you, and the lack of stability early on is a killer. The S&P 500 rises faster than the GDP growth rate, meaning the profits in the 500 largest firms (more or less) grows at a faster clip than the overall economy (adjusted for survivorship bias, etc). Successful businesses make money.<br /><br />Does running a business require an "MBA?" That depends, you want to have a funded Startup with investment capital? It doesn't require an MBA, it requires an MBA from Stanford, Harvard, Penn, Yale, or MIT. If you want to run a business without seed capital from investors, better be able to build it up. Want to bootstrap off clients? Sure, can be done, some will make more than a day job, some less, but unless you have a real product/service and a staff, you aren't likely to make much more consulting on a 1099 than you are working on a W-2... maybe more, but not 20x.<br /><br />A bigger problem, startups without capital involve people toiling away 7 days/week for little to no pay while starting a business... that's fine if you are 22 without student loans, that's NOT fine if you are 25 with 3 kids and a pregnant wife...<br /><br />Individuals can go and build a business, but planned entreprenuership is hard.<br /><br />Those traditional "Jewish" fields? Those weren't Jewish fields, those were the jobs held by poor landless peasants in Russia, Jew or Gentile, stop watching Fiddler on the Roof and reading crappy (but fun) books for economic advice. (BTW: I actually recommend people read Rich Dad/Poor Dad, because while the stories are exaggerated and clearly not a finance book, the idea of wealth generating assets, etc., is different from what you read in CNN Money, and it's nice to get different ideas.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-15823041994912859182009-10-14T19:03:44.491-04:002009-10-14T19:03:44.491-04:00"are we BTs in the corporate/professional wor..."are we BTs in the corporate/professional world falling prey to the "get good education/grades = get a good job = get a good salary = good lifestyle & retire" mentality?"<br /><br />I see so many chareidi-type BTs emulating FFBs to the max, even the traits that aren't so admirable. Why can't we admit that BTs are not inferior to FFBs and don't have to copy them in every way???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11313863452869978332009-10-14T17:49:15.963-04:002009-10-14T17:49:15.963-04:00I appreciate the effort to include alternate viewp...<i>I appreciate the effort to include alternate viewpoints on the blog and to stimulate discussion. But if the discussion is simply "Wow, your guest poster doesn't really know very much about the topic," I'm not sure how productive that is...</i><br /><br />Just give me time to post some thoughts.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-71525658134396882192009-10-14T17:44:23.998-04:002009-10-14T17:44:23.998-04:00The poster states "math & english can eas...The poster states "math & english can easily be made up for as an adult - look at people from India, China etc who have ESL - english as a 2nd language - its true they know math & science, but I believe they are taught how to think vs the American secular system which emphasizes memorization." Yikes. For many, math and english cannot be made up for as an adult. The asian immigrant example doesn't work because either immigrants come here already knowing english or having vauable scientific or engineering skills (and, yes that means math) or its the second generation -- brought up to highly value secular education that succeed so well. The comment about secular education focusing on memorization is sorely outdated. There is no more memorization in secular education than in jewish religious education. Of course, some memorization is necessary -- multiplication tables, the table of periodic elements, geography, etc. and that is fine as long as its combined with the concepts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39997894921832146142009-10-14T17:30:24.516-04:002009-10-14T17:30:24.516-04:00Entreprenurship and being an employee and/or being...Entreprenurship and being an employee and/or being a professional are not mutually exclusive. Often the most valued and highly compensated employees are those with the best sales or customer services skills or those with the vision and creativity to see a new market niche and how to fill it, or better yet, create the market. <br /><br />Many professionals are small business owners, whether as a solo or a member of a partnership, including lawyers, accountants, architects, dentists, drs., etc. Knowing how to run a businesses and how to get and keep clients is key.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90824445635863144962009-10-14T17:16:25.959-04:002009-10-14T17:16:25.959-04:00In additional to all the other points made in the ...In additional to all the other points made in the comments above, the guest poster clearly does not know anything about education in China or India or any other foreign country. America is hardly the worldwide leader in rote memorization!<br /><br />One of the biggest critiques of Chinese education and other similar foreign systems is that it is all about rote memorization (including related to math or science), culminating in high pressure exams at the end of secondary school (which determines if you can go on to college, advanced education, etc.). Our educational system introduces far more opportunities for creative problem solving. <br /><br />Beyond that, Chinese students must learn LANGUAGE. They simply do not learn ENGLISH as their primary language, because they write CHINESE and speak a dialect of it! The fact that adults can learn english as a second language (and let's face it, fluency is severely compromised by delaying introduction of a second language after the age of 10), has nothing to do with what foreign students learn in their own native countries. Due to the complexity of the character-based written system and the differences in spoken dialects, Chinese students spend a tremendous amount of time copying and learning characters!<br /><br />I appreciate the effort to include alternate viewpoints on the blog and to stimulate discussion. But if the discussion is simply "Wow, your guest poster doesn't really know very much about the topic," I'm not sure how productive that is...Offwingernoreply@blogger.com