tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post4428955495953845103..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-38930017605290453352007-11-27T16:40:00.000-05:002007-11-27T16:40:00.000-05:00OK, before anyone gets upset by my last comment, j...OK, before anyone gets upset by my last comment, just wanted to say I know that working moms also raise their own kids. Bad choice of words on my part. I do understand women who need to work (as I do), and even those who feel a need to work even when it doesn't bring in much money. I'm just sick of all the daycare pressure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-56387036346455042822007-11-27T16:38:00.000-05:002007-11-27T16:38:00.000-05:00SephardiLady--As I said, I think tuition should co...SephardiLady--<BR/>As I said, I think tuition should come before camp. I just wanted to point out that camp isn't just a place to dump kids for the summer and/or a way to keep them out of trouble. <BR/><BR/>Mother in Israel--<BR/>I agree that it's important to have caretakers who won't drop out of a kid's life. OTOH, good daycare providers (not the ones at the factory-like places) love what they're doing and genuinely enjoy working with kids. Not all family members do. IMO I was better off at daycare than I would have been with most of my aunts/uncles or grandparents, who are/were wonderful people who get overwhelmed or exasperated by children.<BR/><BR/>In general, yes, there is huge pressure to send kids to daycare. I don't know if it's really that much worse that what goes on in the states. In the states most people I knew had fewer kids, so daycare was the obvious choice for financial reasons (ie, it makes sense to work when you only have one kid in daycare). <BR/><BR/>For sure there's a lot of pressure in Israel. I had such a hard time trying to explain to one perspective daycare provider why I wanted parttime care and not full-time--yes, I know her full-time price is good, yes I realize part-time costs more per hour, yes I'm sure the babies have fun in the "misgeret" and do all sorts of interesting things but I WANT TO RAISE MY OWN CHILD!!! Why is it such a foreign thought that a mother would actually WANT to spend time with her baby when possible? Grr. I realize she was biased towards pushing moms into fulltime care, but I've even heard some similar arguments from other parents, who assume my daughter must be bored out of her mind when she's at home. Hello, she's 1.2 years old, EVERYTHING fascinates her. An old tshirt provides 30 minutes of quality entertainment. Honestly, whoever heard of a bored baby?<BR/><BR/>(/rant)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-71164973830011614172007-11-27T06:01:00.000-05:002007-11-27T06:01:00.000-05:00SL "But this thread really is about tuition vs. ca...SL "But this thread really is about tuition vs. camp. I would say that parents who do want to be home should crunch the worth of that 2nd income. I've helped people crunch these numbers and they are often surprised by how little the 2nd income is worth. If they want to be home, they can often make it work."<BR/>I agree. However, most of the mothers I speak with would rather LOSE money than stay at home. Of course, some do come out ahead. Those who are "losing" (take into account child care, fast food, help in the house, clothing, transportation etc.) say it will get better once they don't have day care, and can start putting all that extra money away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19813060692275896642007-11-26T22:15:00.000-05:002007-11-26T22:15:00.000-05:00Just to add to Mother In Israel's comments, family...Just to add to Mother In Israel's comments, family does not come and go (except in cases of great disfuntion) whereas caregivers do leave. Ideally, I think that young children are served by arrangements that are long term. Unfortunately, day care workers are a dime a dozen, and they come and go frequently. Nannies do tend to stay for longer amounts of time, but are known to get up and leave suddenly (has happened to many people I know). Personally I don't blame the nannies because they are often not treated as valued employees (another post on that, since a friend of mine did up and quit). <BR/><BR/>I'm not big on daycare and wish we could rewind to the days where nearly all the kids were home and we could stop in and out of neighbors homes without making a "playdate." <BR/><BR/>But this thread really is about tuition vs. camp. I would say that parents who do want to be home should crunch the worth of that 2nd income. I've helped people crunch these numbers and they are often surprised by how little the 2nd income is worth. If they want to be home, they can often make it work.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-56160345918284101312007-11-26T08:20:00.000-05:002007-11-26T08:20:00.000-05:00Abbi, of course there are loving caretakers out th...Abbi, of course there are loving caretakers out there and you are lucky to have found them. I was comparing a paid caretaker, who would not do it for free even if she was independently wealthy, to a grandmother or aunt in previous generations, who did (and I still see the occasional grandmother who cares for grandchildren every day). Obviously caretakers deserve to be paid for their work, and much more than they get now. <BR/>What I am trying to say is that (in a very general way--of course there are numerous exceptions) you can't compare the concern that a mother or grandmother has for a baby to that of someone outside the family. I could give numerous examples from the loving metaplot I see in the local park, some of whom maintain relationships with the families for years after they cease working for them. Yes, children can be "enriched" by outside experience. Everything has an upside. But this enrichment does not, in my opinion, make up for the lack of a mother's care for extended hours in the early years. For me, daycare and babysitters should be "bedi'eved."<BR/><BR/>As for your last paragraph, I said something similar in my last comment, and I believe it. No one can make such decisions for another family.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-7980981784566020882007-11-26T07:24:00.000-05:002007-11-26T07:24:00.000-05:00Tamiri: It sounds like you feel a bit defensive a...Tamiri: It sounds like you feel a bit defensive about your childcare choices, which is understandable, considering you're bucking a significant trend here.<BR/><BR/>It also sounds like you have created a great set up for both you and your child, which I'm sure both of your appreciate tremendously. I sincerely think that's great for you.<BR/><BR/>But honestly, what other pple think is best for their kids is really a decision only they can make. <BR/><BR/>And you might want to put things a bit in perspective (or dan l'caf zchut, to put it another way); You say the kids are sick and whiny: Are you basing this on seeing them at at 4 or 5 in the afternoon- prime whiny time for most kids? <BR/><BR/>I know other kids who have a permanent runny nose- even after a month at home in the summer.(chronic allergies usually play a role, not exposure to viruses)<BR/><BR/>Attitudes towards childcare are very different here. I personally appreciate it, but I can see how someone who experienced it otherwise might not. I think it has a lot to do with the original kibbutz movement and children's houses, etc. I think that has heavily influenced the general societal attitude towards childcare, but I have no research to back this up (just an idea that's been in my head). <BR/><BR/>My set up works for me and my family, it sounds like yours works for you. We can all only do the best we can with what we have.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-76703902510890817122007-11-26T07:14:00.000-05:002007-11-26T07:14:00.000-05:00MII said: Today's children are cared for by strang...MII said: <I>Today's children are cared for by strangers who do it for the salary. There are many caretakers out there who genuinely love the children they care for, but try offering your metapelet (nanny) a cut in salary and see what happens.</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry, that's just a gross generalization and a strange turn of logic that receiving a salary = not "truly" loving your child. Every one of the gannanot/metaplot (who were all fully paid for their work) who have cared for my children has truly loved them, which I think in itself is a profoundly enriching experience for my children- loving and receiving love from someone outside our family. <BR/><BR/>If I ever had a moment's hesitation about this factor, i just wouldn't send my child to that caretaker. End of story. <BR/><BR/>Look, all I can go by is my own experience and those of the other mothers I've encountered in the communities I've lived in for the past 5 years. Most mothers I know strive to put their children in daycare with the lowest ratio/highest quality care possible within their economic means. They team up with other mothers to share a metapelet, they search for the best possible references, the most experience. I just haven't met anyone who's happy dropping off their kid at the local maon, if they could avoid it at all costs.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure there are mothers out there who are satisfied with maon for their infants and I'm sure many infants thrive in that environment, despite yours and my skepticism. I think a clean, organized maon staffed with competant and caring metaplot is preferable to a dirty, disorganized mishpachton with a metapelet who ignores the kids any day.<BR/><BR/>The point is, as someone said earlier, every family has to come these decisions on their own, based on the economic, emotional and psychological needs of the entire family.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-5126633974342180512007-11-26T06:57:00.000-05:002007-11-26T06:57:00.000-05:00Re: Camps and financial assistance. Some camps (...Re: Camps and financial assistance. Some camps (Moshava Wisconsin, Camp Stone, Dora Golding) do offer a break. I noted the ones I dealt with so what I write is fact. I don't know about any other camps but I assume help is out there. Maybe that is why the rich kids pay so much - so the less rich kids can have a break.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14676551423990318102007-11-26T06:55:00.000-05:002007-11-26T06:55:00.000-05:00Abbi wrote Sounds like you have a pretty crabby b...Abbi wrote Sounds like you have a pretty crabby bunch in your yishuv, or you just have inadequate childcare options; the latter reason being a major one why I wouldn't move to a yishuv till I was sure I liked the childcare options.<BR/>BINGO. You hit the nail on the head. I am sorry when I come off writing stron-sounding statements and apoligize if I offended you, but I am dealing with a very difficult reality where I live. No one even THINKS for a moment that kids need to be with mom. That is the brainwashing I referred to. In a regular society, you have many opinions. Where I live, there is just one: kids belong with other kids ASAP. <BR/>I did not come across this in the States where I brought up 4 kids: people had a nanny in the home, usually for several years, and never sent kids out at age 2 for more than a couple of hour 2-3 days a week.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32932476569705427242007-11-26T03:11:00.000-05:002007-11-26T03:11:00.000-05:00I'm going to jump in here about Ora and Abbi's con...I'm going to jump in here about Ora and Abbi's contention that a multigenerationsl family situation is equivalent to a mishpachton (family day care) or gan (preschool). There are at least two significant differences that come to mind:<BR/>1. The children in earlier generations were cared for by family members, who have known them from birth, shared the same values and culture as the children's parents, and had a vested interest in the children's future. Today's children are cared for by strangers who do it for the salary. There are many caretakers out there who genuinely love the children they care for, but try offering your metapelet (nanny) a cut in salary and see what happens. <BR/>2. The key word is multigenerational. Young children (especially under the age of 2 or 3) should not need to compete for an adult's attention. In a traditional extended family the child had several adults or older children to turn to if they needed something. In a group of similar-aged children the children themselves make a pecking order, with the bullies at the top and the bullied at the bottom. Yes, some situations are better than others, and Abbi, your situation sounds good. I am sure you pay a lot, but unfortunately most parents don't feel that good daycare is something worth investing in. They get rid of the nanny by the time the child is a year old, to send to day care so the kid can "learn;" they feel they can only learn with a group of children their age and a qualified daycare provider.<BR/>I don't think that mothers should feel guilty for leaving their children to go to work, if they have examined the family and economic situation carefully, and tried to minimize the time children spend away from home. However, they need to be realistic about the type and amount of attention young children need and not choose a setting just because "that's what everyone else does and the kids come out fine." And if parents don't complain it doesn't mean anything; they often don't have a clue (or don't want to think too hard) about what is going on. <BR/>At any rate many factors aside from daycare go into a child's adult persona. All we can do is make the best decisions we can with the information that we have at the time.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1426505809324175522007-11-26T02:42:00.000-05:002007-11-26T02:42:00.000-05:00SephardiLady,I doubted anyone had any numbers (tho...SephardiLady,<BR/><BR/>I doubted anyone had any numbers (though if anyone did, I wish they would post). I guess my point is more along the lines that these camps are definitely huge money-making machines and no one seems to complain about it even though our yeshivas are hurting. I also see it as camps charging an arm and a leg for a "frum summer environment" and taking advantage of the fear parents have of their children experiencing even a second in a "non-frum environment" or of their children being socially isolated by not going to these camps. As one who didn't go to sleepaway I can definitely say the first few months after camp all anyone in MO yeshivas would talk about was camp and camp friends.<BR/><BR/>I see it similar to kosher caterers in large Jewish communities who charge say $750 for a small kiddush for a bris. They charge a lot because they can. I think if these types of cost were brought into line perhaps parents would have more money to pay tuition. I don't think it's the high cost of tuition that is necessarily the problem - it's the cummulative affect of the high cost of EVERYTHING. And we turn so many "wants" into "needs" in our communities that tution takes a back seat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-349883370643500062007-11-26T00:42:00.000-05:002007-11-26T00:42:00.000-05:00To respond to the original post: I think it's wron...To respond to the original post: I think it's wrong to send your kids to camp if you can't pay full tuition.<BR/><BR/>Tamiri- honestly, I don't know any kids in my childs' circles who are sick and whiny. My own girls are affectionate, warm, quite healthy (except for the younger, who was always prone to colds even as a baby at home) and all around well adjusted, b'ah. Everyone around comments on their demeanors, and even how they capably interact with new adults and children. And they've both been in some type of childcare framework since a year or 16 mos. <BR/><BR/>Nor have I heard any mothers of any gan I've sent my children complaining about anything. I sent my older one to a gan with a slightly charedi bent, and some mothers complained about not being able to bring abbas to b-day parties, but I think that's pretty much been the extent of the complaining I've heard. Every gan I've sent my children to, the parents have been happy, even the parents to whom I recommended the gan in the first place. So much so, we were all teary when we had a final goodbye party at my daughter's mishpachton.<BR/><BR/>Sounds like you have a pretty crabby bunch in your yishuv, or you just have inadequate childcare options; the latter reason being a major one why I wouldn't move to a yishuv till I was sure I liked the childcare options. <BR/><BR/>Ora: I really agree with you on the point of group childcare not being a newfangled idea. Most traditional families grew up in multigenerational households near other family members, where the mother was never alone or isolated with her children like they are today.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90043476225644084032007-11-25T20:01:00.000-05:002007-11-25T20:01:00.000-05:00JS-Unfortunately I do not have any numbers on camp...JS-Unfortunately I do not have any numbers on camp and the cost and structure varies so much.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-38897769206470749892007-11-25T19:56:00.000-05:002007-11-25T19:56:00.000-05:00Fun or not, I'm trying to figure out why the schoo...Fun or not, I'm trying to figure out why the schools should have to compete for after-camp dollars.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-7623169905462940422007-11-25T18:24:00.000-05:002007-11-25T18:24:00.000-05:00One thing people seem to be forgetting is that cam...One thing people seem to be forgetting is that camp is really, really fun. It's not just a place to "dump" kids over the summer, it's a place for older kids to get together and have a blast. I went to an overnight camp for one month every summer starting at age 9, and I would have gone for two months if my parents had let me. <BR/><BR/>That said, I would not send my kids to camp if it meant failing to pay tuition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50625037539458597662007-11-25T18:21:00.000-05:002007-11-25T18:21:00.000-05:00Tamiri--Ritalin is abused because many teachers an...Tamiri--<BR/>Ritalin is abused because many teachers and even doctors see childhood as a treatable disease (not to denigrate the 2% of parents of children on ritalin who actually need ritalin), not because of gan.<BR/><BR/>Kids are overstimulated by TV, which many researchers believe can actually change brain patterns. I don't think kids are overstimulated by playing in a group with other children. The kind of situation found in many child care arrangements (4/5 kids to one caretaker in a mishpachton, or 20 kids to 4/5 caretakers in a gan) are actually not that different from the situations you might find in a polygamous family or in a traditional farming community where some women watch the kids while others get water and work in the fields. Group childcare is not necessarily a unique modern phenomenon.<BR/><BR/>In general I would agree with you that the ideal situation involves a mother who can devote all of her time and attention to her family. However, for some women it's not possible because they have to work work. For others, working out of the house part-time or even full-time really does improve their parenting. Just as I don't think a mother is selfish for taking some personal time to shower/read the paper/respond to bloggers on orthonomics, I don't think a mother is selfish for working mornings (or whenever) if she knows it will keep her (and therefore the rest of the family) happy and better able to cope.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-18438582201625944462007-11-25T18:12:00.000-05:002007-11-25T18:12:00.000-05:00I have to say, I'm finding this SAHM discussion to...I have to say, I'm finding this SAHM discussion to be a bit odd. Aside from the fact that the best way to run and organize a family is a highly personal and individual matter that can only be decided by the family in question, people seem to be missing the point. <BR/><BR/>The issue isn't whether a woman can STAND to be with her children 24 hours a day, the issue is whether it's BEST for a woman to be with her chidren 24 hours a day (best for her, for them, and for dad).<BR/><BR/>I had a friend in college who had a very strained relationship with her mother, and for a long time I didn't understand why - they got along pretty well in general, but my friend was always pushing her mother away. Then I had a conversation with her mother, and found out that there had been complications during childbirth and the mother had ended up having to have a hysterectomy, so obviously there would be no more children. Faced with the reality that this would be her only baby, she just couldn't bear to put her down EVER and carried her everywhere she went for 2 years. And then I understood the mother/daughter dynamic.<BR/><BR/>There are pros and cons to both ways of doing things. Please don't pretend there aren't cons to being a SAHM just as there are to being a working mother. When I look back on my childhoon (my mother worked mornings), I was glad for the alone time. I think it's important in fostering creativity, independence and intellectual curiosity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-75091982154892136342007-11-25T18:05:00.000-05:002007-11-25T18:05:00.000-05:00In reference to HearingLawyer:"One other thing tha...In reference to HearingLawyer:<BR/>"One other thing that I have not seen mentioned here is the fundamental difference between school and camp - almost every camp that I know of is a privately owned for-profit venture, and scholarships are usually not available (although there are some exceptions). Schools, by contrast, are not-for-profits and scholarships are available."<BR/><BR/>As I posted above:<BR/>The bigger issue to me though is that these camps must be absolutely raking in the money. My sister-in-law was recently a counselor at SEG. She earned next to nothing. According to the website, the camp costs $3000 for 4 weeks. I don't know how much renting facilities or food costs, but I find it hard to believe this isn't wildly profitable - especially since I don't believe many (if any) scholarships are given out. Plus, many camps are more money and kids can go 8 weeks.<BR/><BR/>Does anyone have any financial numbers they can provide on camps? I think it's disgusting that our camps seem to be so profitable and our yeshivas are hurting. Where are the priorities?<BR/><BR/>I'll add that I find it odd that we have such a capitalistic system in camps and such a socialistic/ communal system in yeshivot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-6823628012041814622007-11-25T15:12:00.000-05:002007-11-25T15:12:00.000-05:00Re the double word verification: I thought that i...Re the double word verification: I thought that it was a "time out" feature, whereby if you don't get your message out fast enough, the word verification expires and you have to type in a new one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63669374984755413682007-11-25T15:10:00.000-05:002007-11-25T15:10:00.000-05:00abbi, I don't judge. I say what I see. Everyone ...abbi, I don't judge. I say what I see. Everyone is so happy with their kids in gan... so why are so many mothers complaining? And why are so many kids sick and whiny? And so many kids on Ritalin and with LD? Surely not from the early stimulation they are subject to..??? Not all, of course, but many of them.<BR/>I just had this conversation today with my SIL, a Phd who thinks it's a waste if she doesn't work. Even with 3 kids under the age of 5. She extolls the virtues of having kids taken care of from an early age. So, I ask: is society doing all that much better now that moms are keeping their brains active, and kids are being schooled and trained from toddlerhood? Are the children all that much brighter, well adjusted and better behaved than in the past when plain old mom took care of them without having to use her brain?<BR/>Look around you at the children of the general population and tell me that they are so much more successful than before....<BR/>I don't worry about working mothers looking down on me, ever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32328386719346691832007-11-25T14:10:00.000-05:002007-11-25T14:10:00.000-05:00Abbi-I seem to have that problem occassionally too...Abbi-I seem to have that problem occassionally too, when I try to log in. I think it is on Google's end.<BR/><BR/>True that camp is often a "for profit" enterprise. Even more reason why the schools shouldn't have to pick up where the camp leaves off. IMO, the parents should ask the camp for a discount before the school.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23623948502240885522007-11-25T11:21:00.000-05:002007-11-25T11:21:00.000-05:00Also Tamiri-You're painting an extreme picture of ...Also Tamiri-<BR/>You're painting an extreme picture of daycare in Raanana- There are wonderful private ganim where the ratio is much lower and for not much more money. (Of course, if you work, it evens out). My daughter is in a gan for 2-3 year olds with 13 kids and two gannanot. <BR/><BR/>And I'll echo again Mike's question: It's great that you found a framework that works for you, but why do you need to judge the choices of others?Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39497735297744993732007-11-25T11:14:00.000-05:002007-11-25T11:14:00.000-05:00Ok, Tamiri and - THRILLED to be a SAHM at 8:08.I l...Ok, Tamiri and - THRILLED to be a SAHM at 8:08.<BR/><BR/>I love it when SAHMs seem to think they are the only ones in the world who get to decide what is best for themselves and their families and then complain when working women look down on them. It's really lovely.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I work from home and "dump" ( I certainly don't see it that way but I'm sure you relish using the term to look down on me) my children at two wonderful ganim in my town, where they enjoy a range of stimulating activities with great gannanot and a diverse group of children. I was not "brainwashed" by Israeli society to start my child in gan at 16 months. <BR/><BR/>She actually could not stand being home alone with me at that age and was so thrilled to be able to play with a group of children she never cried once when I left her. Around age two, she cried to stay later with her friends.<BR/><BR/>But of course YOU all know that women and children who don't want to stay home alone together just don't know what's best for themselves, since we're all brainwashed. Whatever.<BR/><BR/>And Lion of Zion: Your comment was really the flip side of what I was trying to say. My urge to engage in adult intellectual activities is not the result of "brainwashing" nor is it because I can't stand my children. It's because I have a brain. Not sure why having children means I have to send my brain to the cleaners for 10 years.<BR/><BR/>SephardiLady : Did you knwo that you have to input the word verification twice in order to post comments? It's really annoying.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27916058708537561422007-11-25T10:41:00.000-05:002007-11-25T10:41:00.000-05:00LOZ:"are you kidding me? of course yeshivah guys w...LOZ:<BR/>"are you kidding me? of course yeshivah guys want a hot girl. <BR/>but it's not because they are yeshivah, but rather because they are guys."<BR/><BR/>Amen to that, brother. Guys are pigs (in case it wasn't clear, yes, I am a guy and yes, I'm terrified about my daughter growing up).<BR/><BR/>Ok, back to the topic at hand. While I do not disagree with what others are saying (i.e., that there other options do exist), we need to keep in mind the (likley) context in which the question and answer occurred. We are talking about people on the right end of the spectrum, who are of the view that children, if left to their own devices or in a surrounding that is not a torah-environment, will be negatively affected. Yes, there are other, less expensive options, but none of them provide as encompassing an environment as camp. I disagree with LOZ's suggestion that "there is very little real jewish content in the jewish day camps anyway" w/r/t to the right wing camps. I know that my son's day camp, for example, is all about providing a torah environment. Also, I am thinking about the tuition reduction along the same lines as a business expense deduction from one's tuition (I realize that the comparison is not perfect). <BR/><BR/>One other thing that I have not seen mentioned here is the fundamental difference between school and camp - almost every camp that I know of is a privately owned for-profit venture, and scholarships are usually not available (although there are some exceptions). Schools, by contrast, are not-for-profits and scholarships are available. Obviously, it may be unfair to the other parents, b/c they have to soulder the burden, but it is the reality of the situtation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85340969590464642242007-11-25T10:15:00.000-05:002007-11-25T10:15:00.000-05:00Lion-Certainly not. There are those who choose to...Lion-<B>Certainly not.</B> <BR/><BR/>There are those who choose to go to summer school who take "fun" courses such as typing, computers, art, etc and those who are forced to go to summer school because they have been deemed deficient and must take remedial courses to pass proficiency exams and graduate. In addition, the public school system designates only a select number of campuses to host summer school and combines various schools. Those who are in summer school tend to be those with less supervision during the year anyways.<BR/><BR/>The (public) summer school I went to was in the rougher area of town, with a rougher set of kids, who were basically there because they had no choice. The environment was FAR different than the environment of my regular public schools, which of course were not without problems, but were generally plesant. <BR/><BR/>(After writing that, I am wondering why I was at summer school in the first place. . . . but as I recall, I had not taken the proficiency exam because of a conflict, so I needed to take it during the summer--we had to fight to get out of remidial English and Math, since my lack of passing had nothing to do with lack of academic skills. But mostly, my parents wanted me to take vocational courses that I would not have a chance to take in high school, because I was in the AP track. Plus, going to summer school gave me a free bus ride every morning downtown, so my father was able to pick me up on his lunch break and bring me to work. . . during middle school, I worked for him after summer school).Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.com