tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post4475164486212880122..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-74863610766297294662009-10-30T13:07:54.563-04:002009-10-30T13:07:54.563-04:00Charlie Hall wrote, "(and all Jews except Spi...Charlie Hall wrote, "(and all Jews except Spinoza were religious back then)"<br /><br />Myth.<br /><br />All religious Jewish leaders professed divine truth to Torah back then. No organized groups of non-religious Jews existed back then.<br /><br />At NO point were "all Jews" religious, or even "most Jews." The Talmud lists the crimes of the Jews of the First Temple era for which it fell. The Second Temple traded High Priests almost annually because the Kohain Gadol was usually corrupt and died within the year, attributed to spiritual failings in the Talmud.<br /><br />In the dessert, the Jews rebelled against Moses at every opportunity.<br /><br />There has NEVER been a time in Jewish history where all Jews were "religious." There HAVE been periods of time where all Jews in a town were under the governing authority of a Beit Din... when the gentile authorities so delegated it. BIG difference.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-59359607230087095462009-10-29T16:26:40.695-04:002009-10-29T16:26:40.695-04:00Off the Derech,
Jews (and all Jews except Spinoza...Off the Derech,<br /><br />Jews (and all Jews except Spinoza were religious back then) have been attending university since the time of the rishonim. I've seen no rabbinic objection prior to the 19th century. The idea of avoiding such for spiritual reasons did not seem to have occurred to the greats of the past, who of course we have to realize are greater than the greats of the present (yeridot hadorot).Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-74791542064950125222009-10-29T10:48:19.186-04:002009-10-29T10:48:19.186-04:00Let's not forget that many Orthodox people ref...Let's not forget that many Orthodox people refuse to go to college for spiritual reasons.OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25195542229502961912009-10-28T10:52:58.216-04:002009-10-28T10:52:58.216-04:00You won't ever hear me say that community coll...You won't ever hear me say that community college isn't a great way to get a start in a career path. Personally, I'd rather see kids get a start in a field as a tech and work their way up that float around with no direction in pricier schools. But, I grew up in a blue collar town where community college was common.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-45797200019073475012009-10-28T10:42:01.138-04:002009-10-28T10:42:01.138-04:00Commenter Abbi, there are two parallel discussions...Commenter Abbi, there are two parallel discussions on economics on this site that don't overlap.<br /><br />There is a Yeshivish or Yeshivish-supporting crew, that believes that many jobs are beneath Jews and thinks that people need to do more to support Jews that can't function in the economy. They are very active on SephardiLady's frugality threats (come up much more around Pesach), and generally support the status quo. They generally disparage education and hold up the one or two extremely successful entrepreneurs they know as an ideal, and live in relatively feudal communities where the wealthy business owners own everything and they all benefit from charity/subsidies.<br /><br />There is an upper middle class contingent here from elite universities that are frustrated with the people that aren't shooting for the stars, and think that everyone should follow a path like ours to have a shot at making good salaries.<br /><br />What this site doesn't have is lower-middle class observant Jews trying to make a better life for themselves. On the internet, you don't get moderates, you get the extremes, because moderates just don't get excited.<br /><br />It's easy to scream from the rooftops about your HBS/Sloan/Wharton classmate making billions, and how everyone should aspire to that, or tell people that you can't earn a living and there is no point because it all goes to the Yeshiva, so let's clip coupons to get pasta cheaper. It's not exciting to scream about becoming an EMT, working on your paramedic certification for a pay increase, then finishing your AA for another one, then your BA and later MA, paid for by the department, while you work up the ranks.<br /><br />In addition to the cultural barriers to discuss these VERY real paths where a community college degree elevates people from 20k -> 40k in earnings, and the commuter school degree bumps them to $55k and another $10k when you get the masters, there is an economic one. The gentile lower middle class that pursues this path for better earnings don't have 4+ children in private school, and if they are in a Church run school, total tuition for four children is about list price for one child in Day School. Combine this with an 100% Frum Tax rate (tuition) from $50k -> $150k/year in salary, and what's the incentive to borrow to get the degree (since there is no disposable income to pay for education) and improve your earning capability?Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53512352834331391842009-10-28T03:38:19.514-04:002009-10-28T03:38:19.514-04:00"People aren't lining up to get into &quo..."People aren't lining up to get into "Chevrolet schools"."<br /><br />Charlie, than I guess you haven't seen today's Times yet:<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/education/28community.html?_r=1&hp<br /><br /><br />Community colleges are bursting at the seams and are forced to hold classes at midnight and 6 am.<br /><br />I think it behooves anyone having this discussion to understand that even struggling Jews still live in the rarefied and insular middle-classish society. This talk about the virtual "necessity" of Ivies or 4 year college in general just doesn't reflect the experience of a huge swath of American society. The people in the article want college degrees to become state troopers and surgical nurses (because they currently work as Dunkn Donuts cashiers and lab technicians.) State troopers and surgical nurse jobs are probably "beneath" most frum Jews, but that's really too bad, because they are stable careers with growth potential and steady pay.(that are actually quite common here in Israel, of course, because we don't have non-Jews to take care of these jobs for us).<br /><br />This is real life. Is 4 year college a ripoff? Not sure, but plenty of poor Americans are crowding into community colleges and trying to make a stable career for themselves. If they can do it, so can frum Jews.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14424126584949922242009-10-27T21:53:57.491-04:002009-10-27T21:53:57.491-04:00That principle itself goes AGAINST the Torah as ou...That principle itself goes AGAINST the Torah as our sages say that learning can only be better in fierce competition and Sofer's (scholarly) jealousy. I know that if a melamed wants to open up a school business right next door to existing one, it is permissible only for education business. Does that Principal aware of that? <br /> And yes, colluding and spooling in this particular area of our business is harmful more than Ivy League school colluding.jewpublic clubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17322039347880886361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-87495583685630241402009-10-27T21:10:56.394-04:002009-10-27T21:10:56.394-04:00SL - While I generally love your posts, this whole...SL - While I generally love your posts, this whole thread (trying to tie graduate education economics to problems with yeshiva day schools and high schools) seems like a stretch to me.Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-76837770619850497682009-10-27T20:58:51.125-04:002009-10-27T20:58:51.125-04:00Here's a story about the issues of financial a...Here's a story about the issues of financial aid in the curren. This parallels exactly the problem you illustrate SL.<br /><br />The Ant and the Grasshopper: The Yeshiva Tuition Crisis<br />http://www.jewcentral.com/article479.htmlSuMMyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02241803456135559434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-9371116730974560972009-10-27T19:10:45.790-04:002009-10-27T19:10:45.790-04:00I'd line up for the proposed $6500 school, but...I'd line up for the proposed $6500 school, but we aren't getting any discounts. There are families paying the equivlant of one tuition for many, many children. They simply wouldn't be interested.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50472721148907146182009-10-27T18:21:01.874-04:002009-10-27T18:21:01.874-04:00People aren't lining up to get into "Chev...People aren't lining up to get into "Chevrolet schools".Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27617155045936061652009-10-27T11:32:42.537-04:002009-10-27T11:32:42.537-04:00"In the ordinary transactions of the marketpl..."In the ordinary transactions of the marketplace, competition from rival producers limits how much a given business can charge its customers." Maybe if you are talking about foil pans and toilet paper. But add "cachet" or "social status" or even "perceived benefit" and far from lowering costs, rival producers in competition drive up costs. The designer clothing manufacturers try to outdo each other as to whose products cost more, because that "costing more" is part of the cachet of the items being sold. Whether it should be that way or not, how "cheap" an item is influences how we look at its worth.<br /><br />The Ivies cost more than a state school. If they cost the same then the thinking would go that they must be the same, ergo why would anyone "lust" after an Ivy education. Add in to perceived worth and name demand the fact that yes, the type of education and level of education at Harvard exceeds that at Podunk U. People still believe that you get what you pay for. Sometimes that is actually the case.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-61082197850331677152009-10-27T10:59:31.684-04:002009-10-27T10:59:31.684-04:00For another historical footnote, the Third Circuit...For another historical footnote, the Third Circuit Court of Appeals found that the financial aid practices that the justice department alleged violated anti-trust laws were NOT illegal. The decision can be found here.<br />http://openjurist.org/5/f3d/658,<br />While the decision is rather techinical, it does point out some of the advantages of the process that was used including the ability to have the admissions process be blind to financial need.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-28099551862879148492009-10-27T10:58:36.342-04:002009-10-27T10:58:36.342-04:00Fundamentally, however, college-provided "fin...<i>Fundamentally, however, college-provided "financial aid" is a method of producing a sliding scale of tuition charges, like ordinary price discrimination elsewhere--and like successful price discrimination elsewhere, it is a by-product of collusion.</i><br /><br />It's also worth noting that this is an inaccurate simplification.<br /><br />First, price discrimination happens all the time without any collusion -- coupons are a classic example of price discrimination.<br /><br />Second, elite colleges (which were the only ones in this example) are not generally analagous to general businesses for the simple reason that a willingness to pay the nominal list price is still insufficient to actually purchase the product.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70286025085156424922009-10-27T10:51:30.588-04:002009-10-27T10:51:30.588-04:00Can you change the orange? Very hard to read.Can you change the orange? Very hard to read.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81921481311876848132009-10-27T10:44:20.707-04:002009-10-27T10:44:20.707-04:00I'd be very very leary of using 20 year old nu...I'd be very very leary of using 20 year old numbers.<br /><br />Government direct aid has not scaled with college tuitions over the past two decades. Instead, student debt has gone up enormously.<br /><br />((Fortunately, we at least seem to be on the verge of ending the corporate welfare boondoggle that is private lenders making governmentally guaranteed student loans))Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.com