tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post460153604470293669..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Sure, I Have Some IdeasOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14844675232938176262010-02-04T15:21:01.105-05:002010-02-04T15:21:01.105-05:00Sima- I have the same type of mother who would ins...Sima- I have the same type of mother who would insist on paying for cleaning help if I wanted to give it up. <br /><br />Dave- yes, she could lock the door and not let the help in, but it's more complicated than that. I think it's a particular type of mother daughter relationship that if you're not in it, it's hard to understand.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70488608681106373012010-02-04T13:34:41.700-05:002010-02-04T13:34:41.700-05:00Full disclosure -- if I gave up my cleaning help, ...<i>Full disclosure -- if I gave up my cleaning help, my mother would freak out and insist on paying for it herself, which I do not want her to do.</i><br /><br />How does she get the cleaning help into your house?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-49050136789596198872010-02-04T11:02:09.642-05:002010-02-04T11:02:09.642-05:00Full disclosure -- if I gave up my cleaning help, ...Full disclosure -- if I gave up my cleaning help, my mother would freak out and insist on paying for it herself, which I do not want her to do. Yes, my kids are capable, and during the summer we don't have the help (she goes home to the DR) and we do it all together. Except, in the summer we all have the time -- no one goes to camp and we have all week. My children have a heavy load of homework, and academics are a priority in our house. Several need extra help, and their time and mine is used to review, drill, etc. so going without the cleaning help during the school year would leave my house a pit. I personally could not deal with that.<br />Jameel, my kids don't get pocket money b/c they have nothing to spend it on. There are no candy machines (thank G-d) in school, we live in a suburban area so there are no walking distance shops. If they want something out of the ordinary we work something out with their birthday money from relatives or they get it for an occasion. They're too young to shop for themselves anyway. They never eat out on their own (or with us -- we rarely do) so there really is no need for a regular allowance. My older one occasionally earns money babysitting, but she has little time during the school year, so she saves what she earns from the summer.simahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10558636036069396977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86963239438450352152010-02-04T09:27:09.363-05:002010-02-04T09:27:09.363-05:00Sima: Our 11 year old cleans 2 bathrooms on Frid...Sima: Our 11 year old cleans 2 bathrooms on Fridays. The vacuuming is done by our 17 year old. <br /><br />We have a Friday afternoon jobs list, in which each job takes no more than 15 minutes, and every kid gets 2 jobs. Some of the jobs are easier (like setting the table for Shabbat, straighten up the coat/school bag area) some are more difficult; wash dishes, laundry, vacuuming, etc). <br /><br />I also have jobs as well...washing floors, doing whatever jobs the kids don't do, etc.<br /><br />Twin infants is a challenge; yet it seems from her letter that she has a larger family, and older kids should be able to help. 5 out of our 8 kids can hold our infant; bathe him, etc.<br /><br />As for allowance; if its a thing of the past -- where do your kids get pocket change from? They have none?Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85474260055031202622010-02-04T09:10:21.236-05:002010-02-04T09:10:21.236-05:00Sima,
I have a pretty big house, and work full tim...Sima,<br />I have a pretty big house, and work full time, and 6 kids including special needs kids. I thought I could never give up my cleaning help, but I did, 18 months ago, and we are surviving! My kids DO help with bathrooms: cleaning a house doesn't take much time when everyone does a little bit, and you know what - they are learning life skills. They will need these skills in a college dorm or in their own homes iy"h. (And they have a lot of schoolwork to manage, just like your kids). The savings of $3000 per year in after tax dollars is SIGNIFICANT to us.<br /><br />But, maybe to you the cleaning help is more needed than the money. I happen to be makpid on cleanliness and neatness, and I was one bemoaning a room that I thought was too messy/dirty, and my daughter told me straight out that most houses she goes to are dirtier than ours, despite the fact we're doing it ourselves.<br /><br />And I have to give credit to Orthonomics, because without this blog I would never have thought about giving up cleaning help - I had it for almost 20 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-4375589052479968292010-02-04T07:51:42.219-05:002010-02-04T07:51:42.219-05:00I don't think of vacuuming as heavy cleaning, ...I don't think of vacuuming as heavy cleaning, and a toilet takes five minutes. The big jobs (that rarely get done) in my house are washing tile floors and washing windows. The insides are easy, but the outsides just never get done because I can't lift them to bring them in and we're not ground floor. <br /><br />When I was a kid, I certainly vacuumed from the time I was 9 or so, and I was a total lazy bum about household chores - I doubt I spent more than 10 minutes a day on household chores, but vacuuming a medium-sized room takes 5 minutes if you have an upright and know how to do it.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50329389588982446462010-02-04T07:45:18.976-05:002010-02-04T07:45:18.976-05:00ProfK -- well said. I am looking actively for an ...ProfK -- well said. I am looking actively for an adjunct position, but all I've found are for classes at impossible times, such as 4-7pm. I'm going to keep looking, maybe for a weekend class, adult ed or something. <br />Jameel -- unless you have daily help, cutting the cleaning help isn't terribly significant. I (and most of my friends) have one day a week, for 4-5 hours. I go without in the summer, when things are more relaxed, but during the school year when I work, giving up the 4-5 hours I have will result in fairly severe quality of life/emotional/shalom bayis issues. I hardly think it makes sense to expect my 11 yr old and 9 yr old to scrub the bathrooms and vacuum when they have a full load of homework, and I am out all day and busy with cooking/shopping/basic housekeeping the rest of the time. That said, my family is expected to keep the house neat and basically clean. But the heavy cleaning is done in those 4-5 hours a week. Perhaps you'd be correct if I was at home all day. Perhaps the woman writing the letter has twin infants at home, in which case she might need some extra cleaning help. This isn't as easy a call as you think.<br />As for allowances, they seem to be a thing of the past, at least in my circles. I don't know one child here who gets one. Some do get paid nominal amounts for unusual chores, such as raking, mowing, ironing.simahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10558636036069396977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-48174154137389532862010-02-04T07:10:17.276-05:002010-02-04T07:10:17.276-05:00Great post.
Drop the cleaning help.
That was als...Great post.<br /><br /><i>Drop the cleaning help.</i><br /><br />That was also the first thing on my mind when reading this as well.<br /><br />In the worst case -- have a messy house. Its better to have a messy home, than be in debt. Clean it yourself -- and have your kids help out. <br /><br />Do they get allowance?Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-61052279045405364272010-02-02T06:53:23.082-05:002010-02-02T06:53:23.082-05:00My kids are now grown and don't seem the worst...My kids are now grown and don't seem the worst for me having taught there, and now actually are thrilled that I teach their kids!! I don't think they would have encouraged me to take this teaching assignment (one class/week for 5 of my grandkids) if they had negative experiences...I don't think any of my friends' kids who went to same school their mothers taught in were negatively picked on or resented it...as far as disturbing class...I can only remember one time when my daughter got sick and needed me...otherwise, it was a visit during recess or lunch!! All in all, I found it a very positive experience and really think it added to our very close relationship now...because we did see each other so much!! (and my daughters are in their mid 30's now) so I would not discount it!! and the tuition break helped a lot!! and so did the "cafeteria" plan!!BubbyThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00737396125721902391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-66658372836067169662010-02-01T22:50:50.215-05:002010-02-01T22:50:50.215-05:00Both Sima and Anonymous 6:31 are right about adjun...Both Sima and Anonymous 6:31 are right about adjuncting on the college level. Sima is right because the pay is truly negligible. Adjuncts are paid per course. Depending on where the college is located geographically and on the years of experience and degrees obtained, as well as the subject area, an adjunct can make from 1600 to 2300 per course. That's before taxes. And you don't qualify for the benefits that full timers get. And that pays for both the teaching in class as well as work done at home for preparation and marking work. Adjuncts don't get a choice of what time slots they teach in--basically they teach the time slots and courses that the full timers don't usually want to fill, like 8:00 in the morning and 9:30 at night. So no, adjuncting one or even two courses won't pay for tuition or much of anything else either. <br /><br />But Anonymous does raise a good point. If you ever want to get back on track as a college teacher then showing some adjuncting on the college level is preferrable to work experience on the elementary level.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10515918021231595672010-02-01T18:31:01.158-05:002010-02-01T18:31:01.158-05:00Sima: I was referring to teaching an evening clas...Sima: I was referring to teaching an evening class when your husband would presumably be home. Your email suggested you could teach at the college level, but decided not to for now. All I was suggesting was a way for you to move to college-level teaching in the future. If you stay out of the field for 10 or 15 years, it will be hard to get back in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-84096559207850360562010-02-01T16:49:03.534-05:002010-02-01T16:49:03.534-05:00"Tessya and Bubby: Teachers should be doing t..."Tessya and Bubby: Teachers should be doing that work because they are talented teachers and love teaching, not for the perks."<br /><br />I'm left scratching my head. Teaching is a job. It has a salary and perks. While I agree that it would be ideal if only those who are good at it remained as teachers, if schools don't pay well and/or give good benefits, then those who are talented will certainly find greener pastures.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-20357135189150501602010-02-01T16:41:15.485-05:002010-02-01T16:41:15.485-05:00Anon 12:41 -- My children all attend the same scho...Anon 12:41 -- My children all attend the same school, which is small, OOT, run on a shoestring, and has a reasonable tuition. My salary goes a very long way in defraying it, especially b/c I work nearly full time for them. The main perk is that I'm only working when they're in school. <br />Anon 10:56, if I worked as an adjunct in the local college,(assuming I could get a job, b/c they are thin on the ground at the moment) I'd have the babysitting problem, a huge one here, and the money is negligible. Then how will I pay tuition?simahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10558636036069396977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-82802448303781612492010-02-01T15:47:51.466-05:002010-02-01T15:47:51.466-05:00Recently posted to Craigslist: “WANTED: One Rabbi ...<a href="http://newyork.craigslist.org/que/dmg/1578516400.html" rel="nofollow">Recently posted to Craigslist:</a> “WANTED: One Rabbi versed in the Dark Talmudic Arts to create one Golem for household of three. Golem will perform rudimentary household chores such as dishes & sweeping, basic Math Tutoring for our daughter in 3rd grade and basic household security.”<br /><br />That’s one way to get “minimal cleaning help” for free...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80872710127039457472010-02-01T13:56:46.371-05:002010-02-01T13:56:46.371-05:00Tessya and Bubby: Teachers should be doing that w...Tessya and Bubby: Teachers should be doing that work because they are talented teachers and love teaching, not for the perks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-58415698822391982752010-02-01T13:55:18.105-05:002010-02-01T13:55:18.105-05:00Buuby: Be very careful. My mother taught in the ...Buuby: Be very careful. My mother taught in the school I went to. Other students were very resentful, and sometimes mean -- picking on me for being a teacher's pet and saying my good grades etc. were the result of my mother working at the school even though we ignored each other during the school day. Your children and other kids may hide this from you, but it is inevitable some resentment toward your child will be there. Other children of teachers have had similar stories.<br />There should be a complete hands off no contact rule during school hours. If you kid forgets his lunch or lunch money, it should be handled the same as for any other child -- not running to Mommy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85363921604844713522010-02-01T13:34:10.507-05:002010-02-01T13:34:10.507-05:00Bubby, I see your point, but as a parent, I am som...Bubby, I see your point, but as a parent, I am sometimes irritated when one of my children tells me that a teacher was interrupted by her preschooler needing something. I'm not saying that your kids did anything to interrupt your classes ch"v.<br /><br />Again, this is an "intangible" that counts as part of a yeshiva teacher's compensation, and offsets the low salaries. I am sure that teachers take this into account and therefore, don't complain about their low pay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-71335020328405078762010-02-01T13:18:58.725-05:002010-02-01T13:18:58.725-05:00Another benefit of teaching or working in a school...Another benefit of teaching or working in a school your children attend is actually "being" with them more than even the "stay at home" mothers. I taught at my daughters' school all the years they were in school and we drove together in the morning, if they needed s/t during the day...they knew where to find me...it was great!!BubbyThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00737396125721902391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-76118784988821821792010-02-01T12:41:07.258-05:002010-02-01T12:41:07.258-05:00Sima,
Forgive me if this is inappropriate, but wo...Sima,<br /><br />Forgive me if this is inappropriate, but would you mind sharing how much of a tuition break you receive?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-65434839895974280832010-02-01T11:12:12.852-05:002010-02-01T11:12:12.852-05:00I am a long-time reader and I'm aware of your ...<i>I am a long-time reader and I'm aware of your opinion towards parental availablity. I feel the same way, which is why I chose to work in their school for far less than I could have made in a college teaching my subject.</i><br /><br />Yes, teaching in a yeshiva definitely has many lifestyle benefits, including yom tov and erev yom tov off, which other jobs do not offer. That's an intangible benefit that goes a long way to defraying (intangibly) the lower salaries yeshiva teachers commant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-56910839053885641612010-02-01T11:06:32.589-05:002010-02-01T11:06:32.589-05:00SL- One note on your post above from Pub. 970- it ...SL- One note on your post above from Pub. 970- it covers free/reduced tuition, but there's another benefit that a school can offer for employees in addition to reduced tuition. A school can offer a plan under Section 125 (Cafeteria Plan), which would allow employees to elect to withhold tuition pre-tax from their paychecks. Like tesyaa noted, this must (likewise) be uniform within a class (eg working 21 hours per week). It can also be restricted to workers with more time in, but that restriction is limited to a maximum of 3 years in; you can't prevent people with more time than that who meet the qualifications from participating. This isn't for tuition reduction, which you have described above, but rather for the remaining tuition which is not reduced. Doing so, of course, requires the school to have a formal plan set up (and will probably get you audited if you have more than 50% of your paycheck going towards tuition pre-tax).<br /><br />Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.JLanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14815395805958892284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-47891621170112225092010-02-01T10:56:51.943-05:002010-02-01T10:56:51.943-05:00Sima: It's none of my business, but if you ta...Sima: It's none of my business, but if you taught on the college level as an adjunct just one or two nights a week, you really wouldn't be depriving your kids and you would be staying current in your field and building a resume so that when you children are older you can get a full time teaching job. If you are or in the future will not be able to pay full tuition for your children or if youaren't saving adequately for retirement (something that is not doing your children any favors), that might be something to think about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90754912165354783612010-02-01T10:36:20.190-05:002010-02-01T10:36:20.190-05:00I'm not going to say specifically where I live...I'm not going to say specifically where I live, but I repeat -- there is a domestic help crisis here. We're a young community, with no older empty-nesters who might want to watch our kids. We have no network of previously used and trusted babysitters. We have no before-school or after-school programs. Employment here is difficult to find b/c we share this city with a large illegal immigrant population who will work for next to nothing. The primary employers in this city are the hospitals and health services, and there is a shortage of jobs available. <br />Orthonomics lady, I am a long-time reader and I'm aware of your opinion towards parental availablity. I feel the same way, which is why I chose to work in their school for far less than I could have made in a college teaching my subject. As a college instructor, I would have to work mainly when my children are home (early morning and evening) which would first of all would cause a childcare issue, and result in my children being raised by proxy. That's not why I had them.<br />We do okay now. I don't send them to camp, and we don't have some things we'd like to have, but it works for us.<br />Abbi, a lot of these flex time jobs have vanished with the recession. Some aren't worth the time you'd put in, and your household will fall apart as a result. You're right, the letter-writer shouldn't throw up her hands, but employment isn't always the answer. Sometimes a much closer look at how the money is being spent might help.simahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10558636036069396977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19386603898772363822010-02-01T10:00:53.668-05:002010-02-01T10:00:53.668-05:00It's hard to answer the writer's question ...It's hard to answer the writer's question without knowing what the family is spending on cars, food and clothing. For example, are they shopping for clothes at Target and Marshalls or Lord & Taylor? Are they buying used clothes? Are they buying new cars or used? What type?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63169914429896335422010-02-01T09:28:11.218-05:002010-02-01T09:28:11.218-05:00At some point the community as a whole will have t...<i>At some point the community as a whole will have to face the fact that large families + universal private schooling doesn't quite add up. </i><br /><br />I believe the true tuition crisis is the unwillingness to face up to this fact. If we could face it, we could work on alternatives. But we don't, so we can't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com