tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post4877162242008740431..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-49255801832392844062009-06-08T23:01:31.178-04:002009-06-08T23:01:31.178-04:00Charlie - A big difference: Black Americans can...<i>Charlie - A big difference: Black Americans can't choose not to be black. <b>But frum Jews can go off the derech at any time and disappear completely</b> into American society.</i>[space]<br /><br />Part of my grandfathers family tried that once. In the end, they were [also] gassed and cremated.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37117515014931165732009-06-08T11:36:48.926-04:002009-06-08T11:36:48.926-04:00"With the dumbing down of academic standards,..."With the dumbing down of academic standards, it is possible to get a bachelors degree almost anywhere without ever having your ideas challenged"<br /><br />charlie, you comment is deeper that you may have realized. yes the education is dumbed down, and that fact allows those who are afraid of contamination to maintain and be educated in that dumbed down state.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70993300819526961932009-06-05T12:58:01.813-04:002009-06-05T12:58:01.813-04:00"the objection to secular education is actual..."the objection to secular education is actually based in legitimate Torah sources"<br /><br />Yet hundreds of observant Jews, many of them rabbis, attended university in Europe from the 15th century through the 18th century with not a word of objection from rabbis. And Rambam himself studied Greek philosophy in Fez, Morocco; the university there considers him an alumnus. It is clear that the sources you refer to were not accepted as binding.<br /><br /><br /><br />'the prohibition of "lo sasuru" prohibits studying works of apikorsus or immorality, which is almost unavoidable in the American college system'<br /><br />It was an even bigger problem from the 15th to the 19th centuries because almost all universities were arms of Christian Churches. With the dumbing down of academic standards, it is possible to get a bachelors degree almost anywhere without ever having your ideas challenged.<br /><br /><br />"you don't think they teach English literature there"<br /><br />Why is English literature a problem? <br /><br />Rabbi Dr. Aharon Lichtenstein has a PhD in English literature, as does Rabbi Dr. Jonathan Rosenblatt. And I don't see how one can properly appreciate Rav Lichtenstein's Torah if one has never heard of Milton or Blake. It is worth getting a secular education just to appreciate one of the greatest living talmidei chachamim!<br /><br /><br />"I haven't even touched on the social temptations of college."<br /><br />They are there. But they were there 200 years ago, and no rabbi objected. Consider this verse from this 18th century student song:<br /><br />Vivant omnes virgines <br />Faciles, formosae. <br />Vivant et mulieres <br />Tenerae amabiles <br />Bonae laboriosae.<br /><br />I'll spare you the translation; I don't know if it is suitable for a frum blog!<br /><br /><br />"There is an inyan to have a seudas mitzvah with meat."<br /><br />It is not a chiyuv. My wife and I served fish instead. Saved a lot of money. And the rabbis approved. It also allowed for dairy desserts, which proved quite popular!<br /><br /><br />"If you find it to be a problem to be aware "<br /><br />There are things in Tanakh that are equally bad. <br /><br />And I'm not going to speak publicly about what is in Yevamot.<br /><br /><br /><br />"I'm watching the Hareidi leadership follow the failed approach of the black leadership from the 1960s to 1990s, that decimated two generations of black America and will take 2 generations to recover from."<br /><br />A big difference: Black Americans can't choose not to be black. But frum Jews can go off the derech at any time and disappear completely into American society.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19308724106235536022009-06-05T07:12:27.981-04:002009-06-05T07:12:27.981-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14079462870045698512009-06-05T00:23:13.845-04:002009-06-05T00:23:13.845-04:00But that is the choice of the donors (or grandpare...But that is the choice of the donors (or grandparents), not the fault of the chareidim. <br /><br />Everyone has the freedom to choose which causes to give to. If a particular MO donor finds a particular chareidi cause worthy of receiving donations, it is the responsibility of the donor, not the recipient.Ateresnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-88053293553987062042009-06-04T22:43:13.493-04:002009-06-04T22:43:13.493-04:00Yes, Ateres, tuition is higher at MO schools indir...Yes, Ateres, tuition is higher at MO schools indirectly because of chareidim. The pool of large donors for the entire Orthodox community crosses community lines. Big donors giving to chareidi causes siphon funds from MO schools. The growth of the kollel movement also results in MO parents supporting chareidi children, reducing their tuition and donor capacity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25639686031520977022009-06-04T21:44:43.941-04:002009-06-04T21:44:43.941-04:00I don't have time to answer every comment here...I don't have time to answer every comment here individually, but the answer seems simple:<br /><br />If you don't approve of the actions of any given charedi individual or organization, then simply don't give them money (or give them a token amount at your door).<br /><br />No one is forcing the MO community to support the Charedi community. Any person, MO or Charedi, can go collecting in any neighborhood he wants to. Those who agree that the person deserves money will give, others will refuse or give a token amount.<br /><br />Besdies, I highly doubt that the financial difficulties in the MO community are primarily caused by charedim. Tuition isn't higher at your schools because of chareidim not paying tuition--the Chareidim aren't sending their children to your schools anyway. <br /><br />To a large extent the financial problems of the two groups are separate from each other.Ateresnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-12612691617594877242009-06-04T17:15:52.927-04:002009-06-04T17:15:52.927-04:00-Oh, and not all schools only charge $4500 a year,...-Oh, and not all schools only charge $4500 a year, so that $7k figure could be accurate (but it seems high to me too)<br /><br />ateres, isnt the 7k a year for after school support by the governemt?<br />that seems to be high for afterschool. it seems more like a full days tuition bill. <br />thats why it sounds like a scam<br /><br />also there was a comment about haredim going to MO neighborhoods for donations, <br /><br />whats the likelihood of a MO person going to a charedi neighborhood, ie lakewood etc and getting donations for the MO school or charity. i would suspect they wouldnt get any donations. <br /><br />as far as moving to israel, i thought kollel people dont have to serve in the IDF. and if you move to israel after a certain age and are married and with kids then you dont have to serve. ( maybe reserves but i doubt it)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23441414289669204922009-06-04T13:40:15.325-04:002009-06-04T13:40:15.325-04:00Anonymous 1:34 - True, but that means serving in t...Anonymous 1:34 - True, but that means serving in the IDF and giving up your status as a full-time "learner" that, as Miami Al points out has a lot of status in the community. Are these things that the men in Kollel in the U.S. want to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14356199067078838302009-06-04T13:34:18.262-04:002009-06-04T13:34:18.262-04:00Miami Al - 1, "give up Frumkeit," and mo...<i>Miami Al - 1, "give up Frumkeit," and move out of the Orthodox world... they can keep Shabbat/Kashrut, but lack the community and watch their children drift away (keeping observant downside without upside seems unlikely to hold the line, see Conservative Judaism in the US 1950 - 2000, decreasing observance, birth rates, retention, and membership size), 2, deal with the system, forking their money over to a body that they think isn't properly educating their children but is the cost of community involvement, or 3, move to NYC AND make 300k - 500k/year, and enroll their children in one of the few excellent MO Schools available in NYC... option 3 isn't remotely possible for most MO Jews.</i>[space]<br /><br />Or 4 - Move to Israel where a nominally good Jewish education is much more reasonably priced (and where other major cultural and social changes have to be accepted).<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29914307734050132512009-06-04T13:15:28.721-04:002009-06-04T13:15:28.721-04:00Anonymous wrote, "Miami Al: You say that if s...Anonymous wrote, "Miami Al: You say that if someone loses $1 in benefits (or tuition assistance) for every $1 they earn, then it's perfectly rational and the right decision for the family not to earn. I respectfully disagree. [lots of excellent reasons to work]"<br /><br />Well, those are all things that you and I value, but not everybody does. I feel like we're reliving the "welfare queen" bashing of the Reagan era and hopefully approaching the "end welfare as we know it" of the Clinton/Gingrich era.<br /><br />Basic economic theory, if you subsidize something, you get more of it, if you tax something, you get less of it.<br /><br />As a "community," we subsidize life-long dependency (both with cash payments/donations, hiring Kolel/Yeshiva "graduates" in makeshift jobs inside the community, and social acumen that holds up the Yeshiva/Kolel Students as role models), and we penalize working both in terms of a confiscatory tax regime of tuition payments that take every spare dollar of workers, and a culture that tolerates having a derogatory term for a "working man." Every time you refer to a lifelong learner as "very religious" you attribute social accolades to him and demonstrate to your children (and the children of others) that his behavior is the ideal and yours is secondary. If you call them a sad parasitic shnorrer, you are probably speaking lashon hara, but communicate values that favor working. :)<br /><br />The resentment you are seeing inside the Orthodox world parallels the explosion of anger that took up the American people 15 years ago, and is now percolating through the Frum system.<br /><br />Charter schools may be popping up as an economic solution, but they are also a REAL cultural threat to the Yeshiva world and their cultural and economic dominance of Orthodox Judaism. Right now, an observant Jew has three choices, 1, "give up Frumkeit," and move out of the Orthodox world... they can keep Shabbat/Kashrut, but lack the community and watch their children drift away (keeping observant downside without upside seems unlikely to hold the line, see Conservative Judaism in the US 1950 - 2000, decreasing observance, birth rates, retention, and membership size), 2, deal with the system, forking their money over to a body that they think isn't properly educating their children but is the cost of community involvement, or 3, move to NYC AND make 300k - 500k/year, and enroll their children in one of the few excellent MO Schools available in NYC... option 3 isn't remotely possible for most MO Jews.<br /><br />I believe subconsciously, the rabbinate fears the loss of control. Without that control, the Ashkenazi Orthodox community will do what it did in the past, assimilate the drop in observance. So instead we see this VERY strange turn of events... in 50 years, intermarriage within Orthodoxy has dropped from 10% -> 3%, observance within the community has increased DRAMATICALLY (the nominally Orthodox but non-observant member is a statistical oddity in most Orthodox Shuls, a group that was the majority 2 generations ago), but the "off the derech" rate has appeared to exceed 20%... so we've doubled the "losses" if we assume that OTD Jews won't raise their children with a love of Yiddishkeit, we just punted it down a generation because they married a Jew before losing interest.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-44125515055878054642009-06-04T12:15:16.229-04:002009-06-04T12:15:16.229-04:00Miami Al, that was great food for thought. Wonder...Miami Al, that was great food for thought. Wonderful points and well said.Shoshananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-44669880169836367572009-06-04T11:32:53.563-04:002009-06-04T11:32:53.563-04:00Shoshana: I too appreciate your participating in ...Shoshana: I too appreciate your participating in this discussion. I think everyone here realizes that the RW people who chose a particular lifestyle are sincere in believing that they are doing the right thing, and it's not an issue of laziness. However, there are real issues of sustainability and the risk of negative consequences to all when able bodied young jewish men and women are not working and are accepting government benefits . The discussion is, in part, one of brotherly and sisterly concern, just like when the more observant try to get the less observant to shape up. We can all learn from each other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-62368589757633631542009-06-04T11:24:57.525-04:002009-06-04T11:24:57.525-04:00Shoshana:
I apologize if you felt my comments wer...Shoshana:<br /><br />I apologize if you felt my comments were "venomous". It is not directed at you, RW (of which I am part, I think) or the Gedolim, C"V. <br /><br />I believe the Charaidim are doing the "right" thing in the absolute sense, they are just not ready to make the sacrifices (Pas B'Melach Tochal, Al Ha'ertz Tishan) needed to "be Koneh" Torah. They want their Air Conditioning, schooling, large apartments, etc. as well as not working. I am not in that world because I can not make that sacrifice, and if not for tuition, I would probably still be there.gavra@worknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16563508023381185342009-06-04T11:13:58.863-04:002009-06-04T11:13:58.863-04:00Miami Al: You say that if someone loses $1 in ben...Miami Al: You say that if someone loses $1 in benefits (or tuition assistance) for every $1 they earn, then it's perfectly rational and the right decision for the family not to earn. I respectfully disagree. Among other things: (1) they are then setting their children up for failure by not providing postitive role models of economically productive, working parents and reinforcing the dangerous view that to work is to be less holy or less frum; (2) there is a loss of self-respect and self-esteem; and(3) they are failing to build a resume, even if that resume is only holding down a job as a cashier or janitor, its better than nothing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-55554753356635813652009-06-04T11:11:03.015-04:002009-06-04T11:11:03.015-04:00Ateres:
Of course there is no connection. Its a m...Ateres:<br /><br />Of course there is no connection. Its a matter of being open to what is going on around you or sticking your head in the sand. They are in the same vein.<br /><br />As far as working in the outside world, the "Gedolim" don't really care what you do. You (as a member of the "Vaiyba" race) have no Taaivah and no Mitzva of Limud, so you may as well support your husband (and go into the outside world/college). Its the men that they have to hold on to.<br /><br />You also did not address points 2 & 3. What will you do when Bezras Hashem you have 10 children and have 50K+ to pay in tuition?gavra@worknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-48786464467055898862009-06-04T11:02:22.020-04:002009-06-04T11:02:22.020-04:00Shoshana,
The venom you are feeling is real, ...Shoshana,<br /><br /> The venom you are feeling is real, and I don't really have a solution. However, you are 100% correct that Hareidi bashing does no good, because it won't change behavior (it causes defensiveness), and will push away our Hareidi members who might be able to influence things.<br /> The professional Frum world would do well to get some secular education... it would be good to send everyone in professional Jewish education to do 2 semesters of Economics coursework, and they'd understand the broken system. A little secular history would help too, because I'm watching the Hareidi leadership follow the failed approach of the black leadership from the 1960s to 1990s, that decimated two generations of black America and will take 2 generations to recover from.<br /> The "tuition" approach is broken. Any "taxes" discourage work and are a necessary evil. The "tuition" model is a 100% tax until your tuition bill is paid, then a 10% tax thereafter with harassment for donation.<br /> I do not fault the individual that says, "if my husband gets a job, we'll be just as poor because it all goes to tuition, so I'd rather he be in Kolel." They are making a rational decision for their family. Sure it puts the burden on the rest of us, but that isn't THEIR fault, it's ours for putting up with the system and not revolting.<br /> The "tuition" system needs to be revamped. If a family brings in another dollar, you can't take 100% of it, that's how you trap people. If I make another dollar, I lose $1 in tuition assistance, and 50 cents in government benefits, so why should I work.<br /> The "solutions" are 1) leadership that discourages childbirth until the family is established (25 - 27, education completed, career started), which would let you skip the "trap" because you can get a home and incomes started, or 2) changed tuition incentives that encourage work. How would I do that?<br /><br />1. Immediate transparency, the Federation gives no support to organizations that don't have open bidding, published finances, and proper management...<br />2. Set "full tuition" to ACTUAL cost, so people have a target to hit. Some padding to support multi-child discounts is probably a good idea, since we want to encourage childbirth, not discourage it.<br />3. No "tuition shifting" scholarship, all scholarships must be 100% supported by donations, this would remove that hatred, and would force the dependency leadership to have to ACTUALLY raise the money for education, not just stick it to others.<br />4. Set tuition "assistance" goals as a sliding scale. Something like 25% of gross income until 1/3rd tuition is paid, 30% until 2/3rd, and 35% until full tuition is paid... that way we would encourage our poorer members to pay something.<br /><br />We need to increase the size of the pie... demanding more and more from the wealthier members is going to push them out of the pie...<br /><br />As long as families are better off without working than working, they will make that choice. As long as the community has underemployed members, we will be collectively poorer than we need to be.<br /><br />I also think that the MO Orthodox world needs to grow a spine and stop looking for validation in the Hareidi world. We can work together where possible, but they need to stand on their own. No more employing Hareidi Rabbis in MO schools, because they teach Hareidi Hashkafa and not MO ones, and all the 20 somethings I meet grew up MO and are now WAY MORE RW, and that's a problem if we want to survive. That also means NOT hiring Hareidi Rabbeim for MO Shuls, and Shul Rabbis of MO Shuls MUST be MO, meaning their children should be at MO schools, not Hareidi ones. As long as the MO world lets Hareidi Judaisim be taught as "true Judaisim" and MO Judaisim be treated as "watered down," and stands around as people say "person X is VERY Modern" as a euphemism for non weak practice, we're going to fall into the same sinkhole that sucked Conservative Judaism dry as their committed members all ended up within the MO Umbrella.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86255295425788179652009-06-04T10:57:05.575-04:002009-06-04T10:57:05.575-04:00Shoshana at 8:11 makes an important point. There i...<i>Shoshana at 8:11 makes an important point. There is not likely to be progress while the charedi feel like they are being insulted and looked down upon. I don't have any answers and <b>I don't even know if there is a dialog among different sects about economic issues.</b> Any suggestions?</i>[space]<br /><br />There is plenty of dialog! The charedim come to the MO and O (and even C to some extent) neighborhoods and ask for money all the time. They approach MO institutional sources of funds as well (however with less success), and they solicit by mail constantly. And we give. Why? Because they are fellow Jews and Kol Yisrael Arevim Zeh LaZeh. Something we all need to remember to help the Mashiach on his way.<br /><br />That said, I very strongly agree with Shoshana that massive overspending and materialism, especially in such public ways, is disgusting. But I also believe that in a free society, people ought to have the freedom to spend their own money as they wish. I view it partially as a failure of our Rabbinate, that they lack the backbone (well, they also don't want to bite the hand that feeds them) to tell people that public displays of massive overspending is generally not acceptable behavior*. Even for big baalei tzedaka.<br /><br />But I also think that breeding a community built on dependency is wrong. In my opinion, not learning a marketable trade of profession (or business, etc) before getting married and having kids is disgusting and wrong, and ought to be (and probably is) contrary to halacha. Here is another failure of the Rabbinate to instruct the people in the proper way to live in this world**. Another issue of living in dependency is that you live on a delicate balance, one bad thing (C"V the death on a supporting in-law, changes in public aid, etc) and you could be plunged into the depths of an economic crisis that severely shakes up a family and a marriage. Taking such a risk on behalf of ones family and marriage is <b>NOT</b> acceptable (just like driving dangerously, not properly using car seats, not providing proper medical care, etc is not acceptable and contrary to halacha [of preserving life]).<br /><br />Mark<br /><br /><br />* Sort of like the rules of maarit ayin. You don't do certain things because others seeing you do it might think it is acceptable for them to do it. Similarly, others seeing large amounts of conspicuous consumption might think they should be doing it as well (to the great economic detriment of their family, community, etc).<br /><br />** I think in Olam Habah, it will be highly desirable and acceptable to learn all day and collect manna as necessary (i.e. not have to work to live).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36302299308633050022009-06-04T10:40:11.634-04:002009-06-04T10:40:11.634-04:00It's curious that planned un/underemployment i...It's curious that planned un/underemployment is in a community that needs to earn far more than the average american family due to private school tuition, the added cost of kosher and the typically larger families. Until now the system has worked since there are enough people who work in the secular world and are willing to be big donors for these communities to eke by, but for how long will that last.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23748438981638745992009-06-04T10:33:00.292-04:002009-06-04T10:33:00.292-04:00"if your worried about morality, how about st..."if your worried about morality, how about stories in gemara about king david and batsheva, where he lusted after her. when he say her bathing (or something like that)<br />how about incest between lot and his daughters, or noach being uncovered. or the in shoftim with the pilegesh. or yeshida with tamar the prostitute, etc.<br />it seems the torah and gemara have seom pretty racy/immoral stories some that make shakespeare look tame. ( oh yes its okay becasue the torah is trying to teach us something.-well shakespeare also teaches morality as well by using stories with such immorality."<br /><br />The difference is simple, as you eluded. Torah is holy and is there to teach us the proper way to live. Shakespeare is not holy, and is designed to teach is version of philosophy and morality.<br /><br />I'll take Hashem's morality over Shakespeare's.<br /><br />Oh, and not all schools only charge $4500 a year, so that $7k figure could be accurate (but it seems high to me too)Ateresnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-75599208888224975542009-06-04T10:28:43.363-04:002009-06-04T10:28:43.363-04:00"While I hate the materialism I see around me..."While I hate the materialism I see around me in the New York metro Orthodox Jewish community (from MO all the way to Chassidic), I have problems with this "entitlement" issue also. We are MO, and have close relatives (young couple with 3 kids and counting) that are Lubavitch, and insist on living in Crown Heights. The minute they got married, they had this attitude that they are living the ideal life, and that others should support them. They are currently sucking the money out of my parents-in-law for rent, we pay for 1 kid's tuition (arrears from last year in addition to this year's), and they're on food stamps, medicaid, and welfare. The man of the house would rather bag groceries for below minimum wage in a Lubavitch store (who didn't give him the job anyway) than work outside the community (he has a Bachelor's degree from YU, and is very smart, so it shouldn't be a problem). The situation scares and infuriates us."<br /><br />I agree, and I personally can't stand NY (no, I don't live there)Ateresnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34988537681937716032009-06-04T10:26:02.917-04:002009-06-04T10:26:02.917-04:00"1: If you find it to be a problem to be awar..."1: If you find it to be a problem to be aware that there are people who murder their brother & then marry their brother's wife, you are correct about Shakespeare. It also explains why the issues of child molestation are swept under the rug. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil? Not to be mean, but are you sure that is the right way to go?<br />Also, are you excluding any "outside" (non Klei Kodesh/internal work) job for the reason of needing to be aware of the outside world?<br />(I never did Greek mythology, either in my (supposed) RW high school or college)"<br /><br />I fail to see the connection between learning Shakespeare and being open about child molestation. I highly doubt there is any statistical correlation between the amount of Shakespeare a person has learned and their view of child molestation.<br /><br />Oh, and I personally do not work in a klei kodesh profession.Ateresnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-30125040027670399972009-06-04T10:22:14.718-04:002009-06-04T10:22:14.718-04:00"Ateres: As someone in the RW community, I wo..."Ateres: As someone in the RW community, I would be curious to know if and how the community and its leaders is addressing some of the issues discussed on Orthonomics, such as long-term planning and economic sustainability, particularly in light of the real likelihood that governments benefits other than for the seriously disabled will eventually be reduced or eliminated, and the younger generations if being discouraged from attending college will have fewer high earners to support OJ institutions."<br /><br />I cannot speak for the leadership, but I have definitely noticed a decrease of spending on the personal level. People are spending less on homes, furnishings, vacations, weddings, etc.Ateresnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32587795276552508712009-06-04T10:20:37.791-04:002009-06-04T10:20:37.791-04:00I agree with almost every point made since my comm...I agree with almost every point made since my comment. It's the venom that I object to.Shoshananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23293741030414030162009-06-04T10:16:23.244-04:002009-06-04T10:16:23.244-04:00Shoshana-I don't believe any writer in the fru...Shoshana-I don't believe any writer in the frum world has written more about wasting money than I have. I'm not sure any Rav has spoken about the subject more than I have. But this post isn't about wasting money, but about a life of dependency for the sake of dependency. <br /><br />One need not study modern economic works on dependency to know of the social problems it causes. Avadeim haeinu l'paroh b'mitzrayim. Our Torah has let us know that the life of dependency is not the one for the chosen nation, sons of free men. The Haggadah tells us that if Hashem had not taken us out from mitzrayim himself that today we would still be meshubadim, subjects. Incredible! <br /><br />Even after slavery would end, which it would as Hashem had decreed slavery for only a period of time, we would still be subjects in a foreign nation? Wow! How is that possible? Wouldn't the master-subject relationship cease to exist over time? The haggadah tells us no! Even after thousands of years we would still remain subjects of a foreign nation had Hashem not taken us out of Egypt.<br /><br />That is exactly it: dependency is a mentality. Dependency breaks the spirit of free man. Dependendency comes with consequences.<br /><br />(And, I did write a post last Pesach Avadeim Haienu L'Mastercard B'America. This type of dependency also enslaves a person, so just as I believe government dependency should be avoided, so should self-imposed slavery that comes through overspending).Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.com