tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post4959304608032584697..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37634802251275653802021-04-22T00:22:45.046-04:002021-04-22T00:22:45.046-04:00At Ziyyara, get an experienced online home tutor i... At Ziyyara, get an experienced online home tutor in Pune for your child. We offer online home tuition in Pune with a complete solution to the students of Class 5 to 12.<br />Call Our Experts :- +91-9654271931<br />Visit Us :- <a href="https://ziyyara.in/home-tuition/online-home-tuition-in-pune" rel="nofollow">online tuition in Pune </a>ziyyaraedutechhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15440038962098802924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60476205146488596442009-03-29T13:07:00.000-04:002009-03-29T13:07:00.000-04:00To be fair, housing prices have never been "out of...To be fair, housing prices have never been "out of control" in most of the United States.<BR/><BR/>Even at the peak of the bubble, it was the coasts, and a few cities in between (say, Las Vegas), with enormous swathes of quite reasonably priced housing.<BR/><BR/>Just not near New York.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-88662142133956214542009-03-29T06:16:00.000-04:002009-03-29T06:16:00.000-04:00I have only two comments:1. The Rav did not say wh...I have only two comments:<BR/><BR/>1. The Rav did not say what should be done if the childrens' grandparents are not frum and would not pay money for a yeshiva education under any circumstances and the parents are too poor to pay. <BR/><BR/>2. As far as living in smaller houses, the Rav is correct in his hashkafa but is that even a choice in most places in the US where the housing prices are insane and out of control for even a small place?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39417629955814344552009-03-27T11:09:00.000-04:002009-03-27T11:09:00.000-04:00Avi - Untrue. While the numbers I gave were for ge...Avi - Untrue. While the numbers I gave were for general COL (and I'd love for more people to take the Jewish Economics Survey I've been running so I can get a better Frum COL index), the differences when we switch to a frum person are small, and the savings MUCH greater OOT. My BIL and a friend did a cost comparison from NY to Baltimore, and found that the costs were still approximately 1/2 in Baltimore vs. New York, and the salaries were still around 88%. That doesn't even factor in that out of New York you have more free time, larger properties, etc.<BR/><BR/>One of the most interesting aspects of the survey results so far is that overall, 56.2% own their residences. In NY-NJ (not including W. Hempstead and Monsey), it's 43.5% at the moment. (Including them it rises to 46%.) In the US, outside NY/NJ, 73% own. That's a *huge* disparity, and a bad sign for NY Jewry.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63540918522205435062009-03-26T23:16:00.000-04:002009-03-26T23:16:00.000-04:00Some of the high earning finance and law jobs will...<I>Some of the high earning finance and law jobs will return once the markets improve and companies have credit to buy and sue one another.</I><BR/><BR/>Sure <I>some</I> of those jobs will come back, but precious few. The investment banks are gone, all having converted themselves to bank holding companies. Then they all took federal money which automatically places restrictions on salaries and bonuses. So gone are the kids of jobs where your base salary is $150k, and your bonus in an okay year is $500k and you gave $50+k out of that bonus to your yeshiva as a donation (and, yes, there are/were plenty such baalei tzedaka, each school had a few)<BR/><BR/>The problem is twofold, one, the typical MO wage earner will be earning less than previously, and two, the large MO donor simply isn't earning the "big bucks" anymore, and therefore cannot make those large annual donations anymore.<BR/><BR/><I>That's the good news. The bad news is that the cost of Jewish living has risen so much over the past decade that even MO families with two professional incomes are being priced out. I have so many friends where one spouse is a tax accountant or a lawyer at a small firm, and the other spouse is an architect or a speech therapist. Family income ends up between 100K and $200K, and if they have 3 - 5 kids in school, there's no way to make ends meet in almost any frum neighborhood. Property values are still much higher today than a decade ago in these neighborhoods so mortgages are a major expense, property taxes and state taxes are extremely high in the Northeast, AMT wipes out any Federal tax breaks, and tuition rates have risen much, much faster than inflation. It is true that costs are higher in places like Teaneck and L.A. than in Baltimore or Houston, but income levels are higher in Teaneck and L.A. than in Baltimore or Houston.</I><BR/><BR/>Our family (of 7) makes ends meet, but we spend very little aside from tuition (which is 3 or 4 times the mortgage). My wife is a great eishet chayil and is a wizard with the coupons and sale items. Just tonight she sent me to a particular supermarket with some $1 off coupons for something that was on sale 10 for $10, and I also picked up some kosher lepesach shredded cheese for $3.99 a package (8 oz).<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70365951108763463912009-03-26T22:58:00.000-04:002009-03-26T22:58:00.000-04:00Ezzie,Do your COL figures take into account the fr...Ezzie,<BR/><BR/>Do your COL figures take into account the frum COL, or just the general COL? Because the frum neighborhoods in lower COL areas are often the most expensive, and housing costs start approaching NY suburbs (though property taxes can be significantly cheaper). Yeshiva tuition in lower COL areas is sometimes lower than NY suburbs, but not always, and even then not by enough to offset the lower income levels. I've used real numbers for my own dual-profession household every time we say we're leaving Teaneck and moving to Silver Spring or Baltimore or Atlanta or wherever. There can be savings - especially if we were to change our lifestyle as a result of the move to a new locale - but they haven't been nearly enough to justify the move. If I was starting a family now would I recommend starting out in Denver or Cleveland instead of LA or Scarsdale? If the jobs are there in your choice of profession, definitely. But it's hard to make the numbers work once you factor in lower salaries vs. lower costs. The costs for living frum aren't low enough, even "out of town."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-59259642917921818942009-03-26T19:42:00.000-04:002009-03-26T19:42:00.000-04:00Here is a value question... is the goal Jewish chi...Here is a value question... is the goal Jewish children and grandchildren, or is it an absense of gentile children and grandchildren.<BR/><BR/>If the goal is the latter, than one should stop once you have a boy and a girl, because each child opens up the possibility of the "sin" of intermarriage, and while it may have been permitted in previous generations, with halachically acceptable birth control, we should not permit such leniency.<BR/><BR/>If the goal is the former, than the solution is more children, not less. Yeshiva for all has raised the costs of having more Jewish children, discouraging larger families. <BR/><BR/>More importantly, it has divided the community into poor large families (where the marginal cost of an additional kid is back to $0), and small families that support the large ones.<BR/><BR/>If the goal is maximizing your frum grandchildren, then it's a balancing act, and Yeshiva for all is stupid. 40 years ago, Orthodox intermarried at 10%, which has shrunk to 3% through Jewish education AND increased practice (referring to oneself as Orthodox today implies Shomer Mitzvot, or at least with a goal of getting there -- in previous generations it meant that the synagogue you went to occaisionlly was Orthodox), while other groups have heavily intermarried. Claiming this all as Yeshiva'Day school is agenda pushing, it's birth rates driving things.<BR/><BR/>Thought exercise, grab the chart from "will my grandchildren be Jewish," the famous day school propoganda piece... swap the intermarriage rates for Chareidi and Secular, but leave birth rates alone. The Ultra Orthodox family still have Jewish grandchildren (albeit fewer), and our Reform/Secular counterparts STILL don't, even without intermarriage...<BR/><BR/>If our universally Day School educated and Yeshiva educated generation has less attachment to Judaism than previous ones, then what on earth have those schools accomplished. Yeshiva as the place you send a frum Jew to go off the derech is a VERY expensive bad joke.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81892827613514363232009-03-26T16:45:00.000-04:002009-03-26T16:45:00.000-04:00It is true that costs are higher in places like Te...<I>It is true that costs are higher in places like Teaneck and L.A. than in Baltimore or Houston, but income levels are higher in Teaneck and L.A. than in Baltimore or Houston.</I><BR/><BR/>The scale is not even *close*, though. COL is approximately 51% when comparing Baltimore to NYC; salaries are at 87%. COL in places like Houston or Cleveland are even lower, and salary %'s are 70+% of what they are in NYC.<BR/><BR/>A couple with the same jobs in NYC-NJ vs. the rest of the country will do much, much worse, not to mention the added stresses.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57491868032652888242009-03-26T12:13:00.000-04:002009-03-26T12:13:00.000-04:00Mark,Some of the high earning finance and law jobs...Mark,<BR/><BR/>Some of the high earning finance and law jobs will return once the markets improve and companies have credit to buy and sue one another.<BR/><BR/>That's the good news. The bad news is that the cost of Jewish living has risen so much over the past decade that even MO families with two professional incomes are being priced out. I have so many friends where one spouse is a tax accountant or a lawyer at a small firm, and the other spouse is an architect or a speech therapist. Family income ends up between 100K and $200K, and if they have 3 - 5 kids in school, there's no way to make ends meet in almost any frum neighborhood. Property values are still much higher today than a decade ago in these neighborhoods so mortgages are a major expense, property taxes and state taxes are extremely high in the Northeast, AMT wipes out any Federal tax breaks, and tuition rates have risen much, much faster than inflation. It is true that costs are higher in places like Teaneck and L.A. than in Baltimore or Houston, but income levels are higher in Teaneck and L.A. than in Baltimore or Houston.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-91549541165631739152009-03-26T11:22:00.000-04:002009-03-26T11:22:00.000-04:00But let's also be realistic here. A large number o...<I>But let's also be realistic here. A large number of those who are having tuition problems fall into the poorly educated/lack of skills that the work force is looking for category.</I><BR/><BR/>This <I>used</I> to be true. Sure there were always a bunch of people who didn't quite have a clear career direction in their mind as young adults, and then suddenly found themselves married with a few children they needed to support. Not meaning to be disparaging, but there are the kinds of folks that simply didn't bother with college, and also didn't bother learning a trade. Or folks that went to college and had no idea what to major in, so chose something generic like sociology, marketing, communications, or psychology that are not careers known to provide an adequate living for a family.<BR/><BR/>But again, that <I>used</I> to be true. Today there are people, more and more of them every day, that made the right choices careerwise, and earn enough to properly support a family, however their industries are simply disappearing. Think of all the people that studied accounting/finance and earned $200+k on or near Wall Street. Those jobs are disappearing, probably never to return, and those people will either have to, if they are qualified, go back to regular accounting jobs at sub-$100k salaries, or worse, if they are not qualified, will have to find a completely new field. Even attorneys who specialized in investment dealmaking are losing their [previously great] jobs and will either have to take a regular attorney job or do something else completely different.<BR/><BR/>Over the next few years, it will be medical doctors that begin to get adversely affected by new legislation effectively reducing their earnings.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, it appears that the careers that will be among those most badly hurt are the very careers that most MO Jews relied upon to ensure a high enough income to live the typical frum lifestyle. It's really very sad.<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-9349642051494813192009-03-26T11:01:00.000-04:002009-03-26T11:01:00.000-04:00ProfK - Just a thought before I leave for work, br...<I>ProfK - Just a thought before I leave for work, brought on by R'Shachter's talking about rebbes. I would imagine that one half of all same sex yeshivas are for girls, girls making up 50% of the population. In no way are moros paid anything approximating the living wage that seems to get mentioned when talking about rebbes who teach.<BR/><BR/>So here is a question: is the tuition crisis across the board for all schools or is it more of a crisis for only some of the yeshivas? If we break down the schools by sex and put mixed sex schools as a third category would we find the tuition crisis equal in all three of the categories? Girls' schools pay far less in salaries than would seem to be the case that R' Shachter laid out. Less in salaries paid should equal less of a crisis. Are the tuitions in the boys yeshivas comparable to the girls yeshivas? How about in the mixed sex schools?</I><BR/><BR/>In the world of gender separated primary schools, many of the people in those schools firmly believe that boys require a better education than girls. That is why the teachers in the girls schools get paid less and is also why the girls schools can't raise anywhere near the amount of money raised by the boys schools. That's not my world, in my world, the boys and girls get an equivalent education, and not a separate-but-equal one, but rather a just plain equal one (including having the girls and boys "compete" in the same classes for grades, etc).<BR/><BR/><I>Just a note to the commenter who asked if secular studies teachers get the same "perks" that religious studies teachers get. As a secular studies teacher I was never offered tuition reduction, free tuition or any other type of tuition deal. That was strictly for the limudei kodesh teachers.</I><BR/><BR/>This varies widely by school, however many MO day schools have pretty much done away with this perk and have reserved it only for administrators (though some schools have played games by creating new administrator positions for favored teachers).<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19513586623912385522009-03-25T21:26:00.000-04:002009-03-25T21:26:00.000-04:00If they have filed a 990 (religious organizations ...If they have filed a 990 (religious organizations are not required to do so, so maybe YUHS did not) it would be on http://www.guidestar.org/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10122295187160398162009-03-25T20:52:00.000-04:002009-03-25T20:52:00.000-04:00could someone please post screen shots of those YU...could someone please post screen shots of those YUHS 990s (and for any other schools as well)Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27999440918172850862009-03-25T20:33:00.000-04:002009-03-25T20:33:00.000-04:00True JL, not in NYC, but not in Idaho either.True JL, not in NYC, but not in Idaho either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1224822466309874112009-03-25T20:28:00.000-04:002009-03-25T20:28:00.000-04:00"I know a public school teacher with a 4-year degr..."I know a public school teacher with a 4-year degree plus a masters in special ed, 30 years experience and lots of additonal continuing ed courses who makes 55"<BR/><BR/>Not in NY you don't. NYC's scale tops out at about $100k, and the suburbs are generally more.<BR/><BR/>Mycroft- do you have an easy place to see YU HS's 990?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-58225913130614993652009-03-25T18:48:00.000-04:002009-03-25T18:48:00.000-04:00Mycroft: If there really are teachers earning a lo...Mycroft: If there really are teachers earning a lot more than 60k/year, that may be part of the problem. I know a public school teacher with a 4-year degree plus a masters in special ed, 30 years experience and lots of additonal continuing ed courses who makes 55 What's more, they have to spend lots of night and weekend time on reports, testing, meeting with parents, lesson plans, etc. While they do get some benefits that the private schools might not offer (health insurance -- but they still have to contribute to the cost, and some pension benefits) if there really are many teachers at the day schools making a lot more that raises a whole other set of questions about the tuition crisis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11740663833208262862009-03-25T18:27:00.001-04:002009-03-25T18:27:00.001-04:00"While I don't begrudge teachers a good salary, wh..."While I don't begrudge teachers a good salary, why should the teacher making 50 or 60K/year be exempt from the tuition process that his neighbor making 60K as a computer programmer has to go through. If teachers were treated the same and had to request tuition assistance like everyone else and contribute a little something to tuition, they might be more interested in school finances and more sensitive to what their student's families have to go through."<BR/><BR/>Agree and remeberthat there are teachers earning much more than 59K-see eg the 990 for YU HS-I assume senir RIETS RAbbeim earn even more than seniorYUHS Rabbeim.<BR/><BR/>mycroftAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-74282411212198924172009-03-25T18:27:00.000-04:002009-03-25T18:27:00.000-04:00JLAN:"The people there are not typically the types...JLAN:<BR/><BR/>"The people there are not typically the types who would have no opportunities outside of the day school world."<BR/><BR/>but aren't you only describing the secular studies teachers? most of the limude kodesh teachers have semicha only and/or some other "useless" (i.e., unmarketable) degree from azrieli, revel or an academic jewish studies program.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89055841046231880242009-03-25T18:10:00.000-04:002009-03-25T18:10:00.000-04:00"but i've never heard of MO schools making tuition..."but i've never heard of MO schools making tuition benefits for teachers contingent upon sex. (but then again, this benefit is on the way out altogether in MO schools.)"<BR/><BR/>None of the MO schools make tuition benefits based on sex. They also don't typically base it on secular/limudei kodesh either; that would likely run them into possibilities of tax issues, unless they made limudei kodesh all "full time" and secular studies all "part time."<BR/><BR/>The on the way out bit, though, is generally true. Most schools are no longer offering a tuition remission cutoff at any point for new hires- i.e., it's not that you don't pay for the 3rd or 4th kid or above, it's a flat rate of 50% or something like that. I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see that change further into need based only, with the teachers whose spouses don't make a lot getting help and the ones with spouses who do quite well not getting help.<BR/><BR/>People should also keep in mind here that R' Schachter generally deals with MO schools, and may not have been addressing entirely some of the chareidi and yeshivish type schools. While they may not require certifications, MTA and Central (YU's high schools) certainly require college degrees and prefer some outside experience and/or additional education beyond that. The people there are not typically the types who would have no opportunities outside of the day school world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-62411682131956495142009-03-25T15:55:00.000-04:002009-03-25T15:55:00.000-04:00The Satmar would have opened businesses in Scranto...The Satmar would have opened businesses in Scranton like they had in Williamsburg. I think that it fell apart because of a building that they wanted to buy to use as a central building. Still, opening a business in a smaller community is risky.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-88379227138046149792009-03-25T15:06:00.000-04:002009-03-25T15:06:00.000-04:00Every private school, religious or otherwise, surv...Every private school, religious or otherwise, survives solely on donations. There is not a single private school in existence that does not depend on donations. It doesn't work otherwise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70514502955343042902009-03-25T14:28:00.000-04:002009-03-25T14:28:00.000-04:00Rosie, your Satmar in Scranton example doesn't mak...Rosie, your Satmar in Scranton example doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Satmar are usually in business for themselves; I doubt many of them would have walked into local businesses looking for jobs. <BR/><BR/>My father grew up there and I'm very familiar with the community. I assume the local kollel, which happens to be very strong there now, probably didn't let them take over and run things.<BR/><BR/>The Scranton frum community happens to be burgeoning. They have a day school that's decades old, shuls and, as I said, a kollel.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51897043950433290952009-03-25T13:39:00.000-04:002009-03-25T13:39:00.000-04:00TESYAA:i'm just explaining, not defending.besides,...TESYAA:<BR/><BR/>i'm just explaining, not defending.<BR/><BR/>besides, if you would like to get paid for making shabbos, you should probably take this up with your husband. (there was an episode on an 80s sitcom about this.)Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-45723224242053226512009-03-25T13:31:00.000-04:002009-03-25T13:31:00.000-04:00LoZ, look on the last thread about cleaning help w...LoZ, look on the last thread about cleaning help where the excuse someone heard that it's OK to pay very little is because the cleaning lady "doesn't have to make Shabbos." Shouldn't my employer pay me more because I do have to make Shabbos and pay tuition?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-79735450955487369892009-03-25T13:24:00.000-04:002009-03-25T13:24:00.000-04:00TESYAA:i've heard that the logic is that rebbeim, ...TESYAA:<BR/><BR/>i've heard that the logic is that rebbeim, being men, are the primary bred winners and thus deserve to be paid (and get better benefits) than women.<BR/><BR/>but i've never heard of MO schools making tuition benefits for teachers contingent upon sex. (but then again, this benefit is on the way out altogether in MO schools.)Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.com