tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post5443103262732112426..comments2024-02-21T05:24:49.494-05:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger129125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-78707333197186838072007-11-30T12:18:00.000-05:002007-11-30T12:18:00.000-05:00As a Kollel wife, I have to say that Kollel is doa...As a Kollel wife, I have to say that Kollel is doable financially. <BR/><BR/>I started to justify a lot and just erased it. A lot of the tone of what has been written here offended me. There are 70 ways of looking at the Torah. You may not agree with mine, that my husband should learn and that any family time, time spent fixing our house (yes, we own), etc. comes off of learning time but it is mine. I won't criticize your lifestyle, please respect mine as well. <BR/><BR/>BTW, if we waste time, my husband does feel guilty because he could be learning instead of wasting time but he doesn't feel bad that he's spending time with the family.<BR/><BR/>I firmly believe that we all need to live within our means. I am aware that many of my peers (myself included) at times only plan financially for the next few months or the next year or two. We all make bad finacial decisions at some point and we all make good decisions. (in my world, bad-bouncing a check; good-enrolling in 401K, giving maaser to a cause that has helped us/other causes that will help the needy in order of the Rambam's list; in my parent's world bad- bounding checks, good - savings, 401K, maaser)<BR/><BR/>To quote a Rebbe in the Yeshiva here, "Starting marraige in Kollel is great. It teaches you to make do with little."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-15737824486777480502007-11-30T08:17:00.000-05:002007-11-30T08:17:00.000-05:00y'know, I've been thinking, and granted its a bit ...y'know, I've been thinking, and granted its a bit of an odd way to start schools, but maybe we should start, instead of just starting a school, gathering charity dollars in to an endowment kind of thing prior to starting the school, so that in the future it can support a large portion of the school and thus ease the burden of tuition dollars? granted it takes a lot of money to do that, but I think in the long run the school might end up more stable (of course putting enough back in to it every year that it will grow to compensate for average inflation).Looking Forwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876831969877780546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14839200381609637102007-11-27T00:01:00.000-05:002007-11-27T00:01:00.000-05:00to lighten up a bit and get historical with one as...to lighten up a bit and get historical with one aspect of tzedakah: http://agmk.blogspot.com/2007/11/will-real-rabbi-meir-baal-hanes-please.html<BR/><BR/>oh wait, there were controversies there too.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72318513411438946592007-11-26T22:21:00.000-05:002007-11-26T22:21:00.000-05:00Of course the letter writer and others like her ar...Of course the letter writer and others like her are asking for our tzedakah dollars. <BR/><BR/>Tuition scholarships/reductions, tomchei, free loan societies, etc, are worthy of our support. But we all need to do our part. If too many people decide to be takers, everyone suffers.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-8959333727700090112007-11-26T17:44:00.000-05:002007-11-26T17:44:00.000-05:00wow, this thread is still going on?ANON (10:48am):...wow, this thread is still going on?<BR/><BR/>ANON (10:48am):<BR/><BR/>1) divesting assets and other tax saving measures are not illegal. that is what tax code is all about. <BR/><BR/>2) welfare fraud IS illegal<BR/><BR/>3)i am a bit suprised it took someone this long to make your point. i was not thinking specifically of nursing home economics, but rather the fact that most of us do cheat at some point in some way. the difference is that (i hope) no one here plans their life around cheating. also, it's a bit sanctimonious to argue that one may defraud the system to pursue a higher religious ideal (whatever it may be). even if you want to claim that divesting assests is immoral/illegal, there is no rabbinically-sanctioned, communal culture of doing so to further yiddishkeit.<BR/><BR/>also, you wrote:<BR/>"Wow!From reading these comments you would think this lady asked the bloggers here for their money and tzedokah.That isn't the case.All she did was mention reliance of government programs."<BR/><BR/>go read her letter. she did not ask for tzedakah in her letter, but is clear she relies on it together with welfare. that minivan did not come out of thin air; nor did the "few thousand dollars" that tied her over for the summer.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-67594291298464633202007-11-26T13:36:00.000-05:002007-11-26T13:36:00.000-05:00Anonymous 11:01 : There is nothing hypocritical he...Anonymous 11:01 : <BR/><BR/>There is nothing hypocritical here. People worked their whole life and paid a lot into the system. We are talking about 14% of our salaries goes to SS alone, in addition to other taxes that we pay. So, getting it back in the old age is a lot different then young able bodied individuals NOT working, NOT paying, but YES demanding to have all of their life's needs paid for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1824825899845101882007-11-26T13:32:00.000-05:002007-11-26T13:32:00.000-05:00Dear Abbi,The Council on Foreign Relations is not ...Dear Abbi,<BR/><BR/>The Council on Foreign Relations is not some "out there" radical group of nobodies. Their views are not "extreme," they are government policy. Every president (and presidential candidates who have any serious chance of winning) of both parties are members. The vast majority of congresspersons are members. The banking and industrial families of this country are members. You would do well to go to their own website and read up - they're not shy, they're proud. If the CFR says it's that near - it's that near. <BR/><BR/>http://www.cfr.org/about/Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46835865187585029482007-11-26T11:01:00.000-05:002007-11-26T11:01:00.000-05:00Anon 3:42-I'm saying that if you are so against we...Anon 3:42-I'm saying that if you are so against welfare don't get the gov to pay for your,or your parents bills in their/your old age.<BR/><BR/>MII-I have no issue with someone getting a lawer or accountant to minimize their taxes.I think it is hypocritical for people against kollel people taking government money to have the gov pay for the expenses in their old age,particullarly if they had lawyers or other financial planners remove assets from their(parents)names so that the gov should pay when they could of done so themselves.My experience with the real world has shown that many big talkers and kollel bashers did so.(Those who didn't simply didn't have the oppurtunity, it wasn't a princepeled oppisition that prevented them from doing so)These are my last comments on this blog(bl'n)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-75830909859119394862007-11-24T10:49:00.000-05:002007-11-24T10:49:00.000-05:00There's nothing wrong with hiring a lawyer to make...There's nothing wrong with hiring a lawyer to make sure you are not overpaying your taxes. At any rate these people are paying large sums of taxes anyway. It's not the same as using other people's taxes to support you, because you have decided that what you are doing is more valuable than working and paying taxes yourself.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-64911198622361682802007-11-23T15:42:00.000-05:002007-11-23T15:42:00.000-05:00So Mr/Ms anonymous 11/23 @10:48, what are you sugg...So Mr/Ms anonymous 11/23 @10:48, what are you suggesting? We encourage more welfare in the Jewish community?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36716654931692292952007-11-23T11:37:00.000-05:002007-11-23T11:37:00.000-05:00anon, halachicaly it is a childs obligation to pro...anon, halachicaly it is a childs obligation to provide for their parents care in their old age in a dignified way, and I certainly would not shirk my responsability.Looking Forwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876831969877780546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-55314387774236899572007-11-23T10:48:00.000-05:002007-11-23T10:48:00.000-05:00Wow!From reading these comments you would think th...Wow!From reading these comments you would think this lady asked the bloggers here for their money and tzedokah.That isn't the case.All she did was mention reliance of government programs.I trust that all the big talkers here won't find lawyers or other planners to find ways to get their assets off their names in order to have the government pay for either their, or their parents nursing home bills etc. without affecting their inheritance money.My experience with the real world has shown all the big talkers and kollol bashers had no problem doing so.None of them were so self rightous as to say 'a person must provide for their old age themselves' when it came to their potential inheritance money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60870700052142618612007-11-23T00:47:00.000-05:002007-11-23T00:47:00.000-05:00Ahava- Peak Oil is an issue, but the site you gave...Ahava- Peak Oil is an issue, but the site you gave has pretty extreme views. <BR/><BR/>Many mainstream outlets are starting to buy into the theory, but I don't think 6-7 years is the timetable.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-9894157050133093742007-11-22T23:16:00.000-05:002007-11-22T23:16:00.000-05:00It is very difficult to pick apart the issues here...It is very difficult to pick apart the issues here without projecting my own bias but I will try.<BR/><BR/>I am MO with a dual income and have very little patience for the Kollel culture and mentality that this mother describes. I wholeheartedly agree with earlier commentors who believe it is a NY Times column/Chillal Hashem waiting to happen.<BR/><BR/>However, any talk of encouraging birth control and thereby ebbing Jewish births is ridiculous and should be non-negotiable. Hashem will provide - children are a blessing for all of Israel.<BR/><BR/>The real issue here is frankly whether this family is doing their part to provide properly for their children given the pressures of the dysfunctional sub-culture of the community they live in. This is the model their parents and rebbeim project as acceptable. However at what point does she become an adult and decide what is best for her children vs. what is socially acceptable?<BR/><BR/>After 6 children you should understand that you have to make decisions for yourself. In less kind words - GROW UP! KICK YOUR HUSBAND OUT AND TELL HIM TO STAY OUT UNTIL HE GETS A JOB!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63504328475010787932007-11-22T16:57:00.000-05:002007-11-22T16:57:00.000-05:00"We see what happens (in Europe) to the economy wh..."We see what happens (in Europe) to the economy when people stop having children; the future tax base will not support the elderly and their health needs."<BR/><BR/>This is mainly a problem in Eastern Europe, which combines the lowest birth rates in the world with substantial emigration of the working age population. Western Europe is still doing rather well thanks to immigration.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70376437121869275232007-11-22T14:45:00.000-05:002007-11-22T14:45:00.000-05:00I would agree with some of the previous comments t...I would agree with some of the previous comments that the issue, really, is how to define "charity" in the first place, and who should be entitled to it.<BR/><BR/>I think many of us here would agree that someone who suddenly finds themselves in an overwhelming situation, regardless of how many kids they do or don't have, should receive charity.<BR/><BR/>But that is clearly not the case with this woman - these are able-bodied people who are choosing, of their own free will, to unload their fiscal and parental responsibilities on others - and in essence stealing from the genuinely needy by doing so. <BR/><BR/>That I think is where many of us have a problem - the issue of having more children is a reflection of this woman's unwillingness to be responsible for the ones she already has - no one's saying it's always wrong to have a big family. <BR/><BR/>Now, someone asked, "What will burst this bubble?" <BR/><BR/>I'll tell you - and you'll think I'm crazy. But, in regards to America, here goes:<BR/><BR/>What will burst this bubble is called "Peak Oil" and his good friend, "hyperinflation." Within ten years, there will not be a drop of gasoline/diesel available for personal automobiles. Let me say that again: NOT ONE DROP. EVERY BIT of gas/diesel will be allocated to the military, police, fire, ambulance, and probably food delivery. The government will put this rationing in place because it has to - we can no longer compete with true industrial nations for the fast dwindling supply of good quality oil. China and India still have actual manufacturing - they can outbid us by a mile for crude. This is not an issue of "running out of oil," it's an issue of oil being completely unaffordable, and the government having to confiscate what it needs to function, leaving the rest of us high and dry. There are industry analysist - not kooks - who say $300 a barrel for oil within 5 years is not out of the question. <BR/><BR/>The hyperinflation follows because OPEC and our major trading partners such as China and India are dumping US Treasuries and US Dollars like toxic waste, because they are backed by absolutely nothing at all that has real value. When it takes giant piles of US cash to convince someone to even take the stuff from you in trade for a real object, that's hyperinflation. I suggest you study up on Argentina and Germany's fights with hyperinflation - yes, it can happen here.<BR/><BR/>What does that mean?<BR/><BR/>It means most of us will be broke, and charity will become practically nonexistent. At that point, they will have to get a job or starve. Welfare benefits will never keep up with hyperinflation - anyone relying on welfare will find themselves left in the dust. <BR/><BR/>All of this will happen within the next decade - according to Matthew Simmons, and oil industry analyst and member of the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations), the timetable is only 6-7 years. <BR/><BR/>For more info, you can go to www.theoildrum.com, a webpage where industry analysts trade articles and charts and graphs with each other about falling production and lack of viable alternatives. <BR/><BR/>America has squandered it's resources and will soon have none. Domestic production is only enough for govt and emergency operations - private cars are not even planned to receive rations. In fact, the US government is running simulations for food riots in areas with no rail service even as we speak. <BR/><BR/>And our communities are not only not self sufficient, most of them are so ignorant of what's going on out in the real world that they have no idea what's coming - thought I doubt they'd do anything even if they did understand how serious this really is.Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-54184725527443399142007-11-22T08:00:00.000-05:002007-11-22T08:00:00.000-05:00I admit I'm unfamiliar with Israeli Economics, but...I admit I'm unfamiliar with Israeli Economics, but I would say that incentives must be tied to the tax system, not just to the mother's salary.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-26976171323169429042007-11-22T07:27:00.000-05:002007-11-22T07:27:00.000-05:00the government was going to reduce the level of we...<I>the government was going to reduce the level of welfare paid for each child (a good start--but they should just eliminate it). </I><BR/>I consider this "welfare" to be similar to an IRS tax deduction for each child under 18. EAch government determines policies to encourage or discourage childbirth. We see what happens (in Europe) to the economy when people stop having children; the future tax base will not support the elderly and their health needs. The original child allowances in Israel doubled with the fourth child, and that has stopped (unfortunately for me). But eliminating them entirely is a bad idea. Of course, with a tax deduction, you ensure that people with children have incentive to work. But once the children are born, even to irresponsible parents, someone must look out for them. Most tax breaks for children in Israel only apply to the mother's salary.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-9783844171987441072007-11-22T07:24:00.000-05:002007-11-22T07:24:00.000-05:00Poster above me feels that 2 children, for whom he...Poster above me feels that 2 children, for whom he/she can pay full tuition is enough. Rather than request assistance, that family has decided to limit it's family size.<BR/>I admire your ability to limit your family size, I really do. But 2 just "isn't enough" for most people. I personally can't imagine having just 2. If we all decide to have children within our means, the Jewish nation will be more rapidly depleted than what's going on already. And for those who don't work anyway (see Kollel wife who does not WANT her husband to work), even 2 is too much! So you see, there is no real way to know when "enough is enough". <BR/>Personally, I would have more kids and send them to charter or public school. I can't imagine limiting family size because of tuition. The school years last for a limited amount of time. You have 3-4 "free" years beforehand with them, and then ad 120... so for a relatively (in the large scheme of things) short period of time a family should deny itself children?<BR/>Now, Rabbis: is tuition a halachically-correct form of birth control :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-78615478249781342792007-11-21T23:44:00.000-05:002007-11-21T23:44:00.000-05:00Tamiri said: "And regarding tuition: are YOU going...Tamiri said: "And regarding tuition: are YOU going to be the one to limit the # of children, while all around you "everyone else" gets assistance?"<BR/><BR/>Yes, Tamiri! That is exactly what people should do. My husband and I, B"H, have two wonderful children, and we would love to have more. But the bottom line is that we are already paying more than $20,000/year for their tuition, which is about $30,000 of our salaries before taxes, and we don't feel that we could afford that and still continue to pay full tuition. Just because "everyone else" is receiving financial assistance doesn't make it right.<BR/><BR/>I don't understand how so many families get tuition assistance from their childrens' schools, yet those same families who don't have money for tuition give tzedakah money to every person or organization that asks for a handout. That's just wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-18033612103089277392007-11-21T19:13:00.000-05:002007-11-21T19:13:00.000-05:00Do you know what this thread reminds me of? A lit...Do you know what this thread reminds me of? A little while back, there was a big deal in Israel because the government was going to reduce the level of welfare paid for each child (a good start--but they should just eliminate it). There were not just protests and speeches by rabbonim in long beards and black hats denouncing the move. They were not just making up halacha to support themselves. Even worse, people said the state was acting like the Nazis!!! They said that by not paying the exorbitant welfare rolls, then people would have smaller families, and "just like the Nazis reduced our family size, so is the government". As if the government did anything to reduce family size---not funding something is entirely different than banning it.<BR/><BR/>We have this disease in America as well, where people equate the government not funding something with it being banned. Think about embryonic stem cell research. It's 100% legal. Until Bush, it received absolutely no federal money. Bush granted federal money for existing stem cell lines only. To hear the media, you'd think he'd banned it, when he actually enouraged it by providing partial funding. How about people crying censorship when Giuliani wouldn't let that gross art exhibit use city funds? He didn't ban it, just held back city funds, and people cried censorship.<BR/><BR/>So by saying that people who are against the standard kollel life (lazy husband, family on welfare) are against large families is entirely false. I'm pro-large family... just be ready to pay for it yourself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-3948144120343998292007-11-21T14:30:00.000-05:002007-11-21T14:30:00.000-05:00Look, obviously life happens and you can't plan fo...Look, obviously life happens and you can't plan for sudden unemployment, illness, fire, hurricanes, etc.<BR/><BR/>If you live in an area and/or work in a job that only allows you to afford one child, and you want more, then you need to make some hard choices: Find a higher paying job, get your spouse to find a higher paying job, move somewhere cheaper, buy some farmland and grow your own food. There are lots of ways to make it happen. Depending on tzedakah and welfare? NOT the answer.<BR/><BR/>Regardless, this issue is really completely unrelated to the woman in this letter who stated explicitly that she does <B><I>not want her husband to work.</I></B> That's the crux of the issue: Are we as a community obligated to support pple's decision to have large families when they don't feel an obligation to earn their own income? I can't believe there's even a heter for such thinking, let alone that pple actually do it.<BR/><BR/>Why do pple keep bringing up other kinds of examples that don't speak to the issue at hand?<BR/><BR/>We also live under the threat of a terrorist nuclear bomb attack? Does that mean we also shouldn't have lots of children? Who cares?<BR/><BR/>I'll rephrase my bottom line: If you're <B><I>not willing</I></B> to earn money to feed, clothe and educate your existing children, you shouldn't be having more.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-66052081541446295942007-11-21T12:44:00.000-05:002007-11-21T12:44:00.000-05:00"The bottom line is that everyone should have as m..."The bottom line is that everyone should have as many children as they can be financially responsible for.<BR/>What if you can only afford one child? I mean clothes, food, tuition. Should that make you stop? <BR/>What if you are young and ambitious and have 4 kids in 6 years and only THEN do you find out that you can't really "afford" them.<BR/>There is no way to know in advance how many kids you will ultimately be able to support. If the average per family is 4 in your community, then you do the same, not thinking too much about the future. Just the way it is, I think.<BR/>And regarding tuition: are YOU going to be the one to limit the # of children, while all around you "everyone else" gets assistance?<BR/>Maybe an actuary can put together a table which will help people make educated decisions :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57409854132692798022007-11-21T11:11:00.000-05:002007-11-21T11:11:00.000-05:00Ora- I'm not being snarky- but you're really not f...Ora- I'm not being snarky- but you're really not fully understanding hnc's and others comments regarding birth control and poor families.<BR/><BR/>The woman in the letter- who said specifically that she doesn't want her husband going out to earn a living- and depends heavily on food stamps and welfare so she can drive a relatively late model van and dress her kids in new shabbos clothes- has no business having six or more children. She is clearly choosing NOT to plan responsibly to support such a large family in the middle class style to which she is accustomed. She is clearly EXPECTING the community, both Jewish and non-Jewish, to pick up the tab for her irresponsible choices. That is just wrong. I don't think anyone can dispute this. Because she is refusing to be responsible - she needs to get on birth control. She can't have her cake and eat it too- a large family, a middle class lifestyle and little to no income.<BR/><BR/>The point of pointing out that poor pple didn't have these options 100 years ago is that most poor pple just didn't end up with 10 children - infant mortality, maternal health being what it was.<BR/><BR/><BR/>The bottom line is that everyone should have as many children as they can be financially responsible for.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-49541247586406491552007-11-21T05:30:00.000-05:002007-11-21T05:30:00.000-05:00I am with Ora here. The problem is not with large...I am with Ora here. The problem is not with large families per se. It is with combining large families with an unwillingness to make the decisions to enable one to support them. Which can be a combination of taking the steps needed to develop the required earning capacity or accepting the ifestyle limitations that come with spreading the income over a large family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com