tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post5590015468433544363..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Ask Orthonomics: Choices for the Young Man LearningOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-38707684636526373002010-11-08T12:59:13.979-05:002010-11-08T12:59:13.979-05:00Avi said:
"Truth be told, I don't like e...Avi said:<br /><br />"Truth be told, I don't like either of those options. I would really prefer YU or learning-while-in-school, which offers the best combination of Torah and preparatory education. I don't see why it should be mutually exclusive. The arguments that you must be focused solely on Torah to get 'to the next level' fall flat on me..."<br /><br />As I mentioned above, it falls flat on me too. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me what was so terrible with the "learn-by--day-go-to college-at night" approach that worked for so many thousands of bnei torah over several decades. I don't see what great harm befel those men and the families they raised. (Heck, it's their children that now want to learn indefinitely, so they must be pretty frum)Cohennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81444502782456859302010-11-08T11:24:32.825-05:002010-11-08T11:24:32.825-05:00Back to the original question:
I hear the argumen...Back to the original question:<br /><br />I hear the argument for "learning first" to minimize the gap between college and work because in my experience, employers do not value Torah learning, and it can be harder to find a job when you aren't in the college graduate pool. Learning is not necessarily a negative, especially if you call it studying for Rabbinic ordination, because that's a real thing, whereas kollel has no secular equivalent. But it simply has no relevance to work experience.<br /><br />That said, I'd still suggest college first. In today's environment, the danger is that learning pushes college out indefinitely, or that early marriage/children makes immediate income a priority over education investment. It doesn't always work out this way, but my BIL got his degree, passed his CPA, then sat and learned while he got married. As the children came, he ramped down his learning and built up his hours. Did it impact his lifetime earnings, as Miami Al charges? Probably. But he got his education and his learning in, and he's supporting his family now. I'd be more comfortable encouraging that path than learning first and pushing off the possibility of parnassah. <br /><br />Truth be told, I don't like either of those options. I would really prefer YU or learning-while-in-school, which offers the best combination of Torah and preparatory education. I don't see why it should be mutually exclusive. The arguments that you must be focused solely on Torah to get 'to the next level' fall flat on me, even though I did it myself (spent 1.5 years in Israel learning full time before going to college).Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72141016191406094662010-11-07T10:08:08.521-05:002010-11-07T10:08:08.521-05:00For me, the most troubling aspect of the kollel is...For me, the most troubling aspect of the kollel issue is the encouragement of dependency. Looking for a "rich" schver, deals for years of support, being ok with elderly parents delaying retirement; it seems to encourage some really terrible midos. <br />I have no problem with someone who wants to study latin, Torah, music, or just travel for a number of years. Financial considerations may not be a priority for everyone. However, encouraging a life of dependency is really disturbing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50996821315172028002010-11-07T06:51:07.974-05:002010-11-07T06:51:07.974-05:00A boy can be a "genius", and still not h...A boy can be a "genius", and still not have the brains to resist rebbeim who stress how much of a genius he is, thereby convincing him to stay in learning forever. This happened to a young relative of mine. I am sure the parents are concerned about this possibility.<br /><br />The more of a genius in secular studies you are, the more the likelihood you are also an "ilui". There are a lot of competing uses for your tremendous brainpower.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40775198330715237862010-11-07T00:11:34.650-04:002010-11-07T00:11:34.650-04:00JS:
As I have said before, I am part of the commu...JS:<br /><br />As I have said before, I am part of the community in question, and even though no one will argue that it has not taken a sharp turn to the right, most people there (even younger) are working. It is the bracha of Lakewood stealing all the Kollel Guys!<br /><br />And I also know the Rosh Yeshiva and agree with the OP for that question as well. The question here is more subtle.<br /><br />(Being that I am one of the freinds, based on the OP speaking to me about it over Shabbos) The boy is Genius level, and he will probably (Bezras Hashem) succeed in whatever he does. I told the father that the child should have time to find himself; that would tilt my choice towrds starting slowly.<br /><br />I did a similar thing myself, by starting slow, taking a break to go to Israel, then finishing and getting a decent job (Granted its not 200K (yet), but I do eat supper with my wife and children every night, Beli Ayin Hara), and we pay full tuition Plus.<br /><br />I think you are seeing this through your own eyes; meaning you expect 25K tuition. If you knock that down to 8-12K, not going on the banker track is more doable.<br /><br />As far as the friends' children, I seriously believe that is their problem. Some of them are going to mdical school, others will stay in learning. As long as they don't ask me for money and stay out of my community schools and don't lean on my tuition payments, I don't really care.<br /><br />P.S. The OP knows I read this blog (and post) often (not as anon!), so he did expect some of us to see this.<br /><br />(Anon 9:16)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34732672606096952502010-11-06T22:31:43.597-04:002010-11-06T22:31:43.597-04:00This whole conversation is a waste of time, frankl...This whole conversation is a waste of time, frankly. The poster wrote this letter and honestly expected to just get a list of A's, B's, and C's, with maybe a sentence or two of explanation and encouragement along the lines of "A - Your son will get his degree and then can do some serious learning!" They didn't come here to get lectured and they didn't come here to get another perspective. They thought this was a "safe" blog to post their question to, without any criticism or even critical thinking.<br /><br />The irony here is so thick you couldn't cut it with the sharpest knife. You have a set of parents here who simply don't fit into the mold of the community they have chosen. Although they refuse to admit it, the community has taken a sharp turn to the right and they haven't gone along for the ride. Their friends have lost control of their children to the rabbis. They find it frightening that none of these boys are willing to go to college. They worry deeply about the influence the rabbis have on their own son (and hence reject choice B out of hand). They send their son to this yeshiva, but won't even talk about the issue with the Rosh Yeshiva. They are doing their best to conform without conforming. And then they come back to the blog to check on the comments and they don't see A's, B's, and C's, they see criticism. But, thankfully, the person doing the loudest criticism can be easily dismissed as a heretic due to a misreading of his comments. So, you dismiss him as a heretic and you feel better. After all, you're far more religious and frum than he is. You're not the one who doesn't belong and doesn't fit in, he is. You can't be honest with your friends or your friends' sons that they're making terrible mistakes and you can't tell the Rosh Yeshiva you think he's dead wrong or you'd get branded as the heretic.<br /><br />It's OK though, don't apologize. Don't admit you misread and misunderstood even though it's pointed out to you several times already. Instead, give a self-righteous speech about how you're following in the footsteps of the Rambam and Chafetz Chaim. You're not to the left, you're not a heretic. I am.<br /><br />So, go on and ignore all the advice and calls to think critically about the issue. Ignore Al's advice about losing peak earning years. Ignore Leah's advice about YU or Bar Ilan. Ignore tesyaa's advice too. After all, you didn't come here for advice, you came here for reassurance.<br /><br />So, here you go: It will all be OK. Your son will do some excellent learning and do phenomenally well in college. He'll get the great secular job you want him to get outside of chinuch and he'll be able to support his family fantastically. You did the right thing.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60610184993168113092010-11-06T20:49:00.370-04:002010-11-06T20:49:00.370-04:00Al, your comments about pushing off earning being ...Al, your comments about pushing off earning being "financially devastating" will fall on deaf ears. You'll no doubt get a lecture about how truly frum Jews don't worry about the rat race, the career path, material needs, etc.<br /><br />My mother always used to tell me "you can't live on love". I would add "you can't live on learning". My father used to hum a ditty with the words "love makes the world go round". I'm sure that the retort back to me will be that "learning makes the world go round".tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-28848739055475526612010-11-06T20:45:43.511-04:002010-11-06T20:45:43.511-04:00Al, I was thinking about this over Shabbos too.
I...Al, I was thinking about this over Shabbos too.<br /><br />I can't understand why these boys (posters' friends' sons who refuse to consider college despite their parents' wishes), who are so steeped in Torah that they insist on learning full time, nonetheless are willing to rebel against their parents' wishes by refusing college altogether. If they are so steeped in Torah, how do they justify this violation of Kibud Av v'Em? <br /><br />I'm sure that there is some religious explanation they can fall back on, but it sure seems as if their rashei yeshiva are encouraging them to violate this mitzvah in the name of "Torah".tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-78281763222830775712010-11-06T20:22:20.101-04:002010-11-06T20:22:20.101-04:00I was thinking about "able to afford it"...I was thinking about "able to afford it" this Shabbat, and what that means. I think the parent means, "he can live in my house, I can feed him, and supply him with spending money," which I suppose is "support" for a single man...<br /><br />However, these years are the cheapest that they will EVER be in his life, so being able to "support" him isn't real... REALLY supporting him would be "making him whole" from pushing off school/career by 1-4 years. If you figure that over the course of your career, "wages" in general go up by 1% over inflation, and your personal income probably gains another 1% factoring in raises (obviously it could be 10%, 0%, 0%, or 4%, 3%, 4%, not 5%/year)... so if the child is putting off his career from 4 years, really, to "support him" that means both paying his living expenses AND putting enough money away for him to pay him the 8% of lifetime salary that he loses, since his income will be permanently 8% lower by not working those 4 years.<br /><br />Also, JS did NOT say that learning Torah was no more valuable than watching TV. He said that as a thought exercise, pretend instead of learning Torah it was something equally "worthless to future employers," in this case watching television.<br /><br />Everyone's blinders go up when the topic is "learning," so switching to another personal indulgence was a useful way to frame the argument.<br /><br />But calling people heretics is WAY more fun.<br /><br />Supporting someone on a personal growth year for 1 year is a 2% hit to lifetime income. In otherwards, don't compensate him for sitting home at 18, he's skipping the workforce year at 22, which means he earn's a 22 year old's income at 23, so he loses a year of "peak earning years," not these "minimal earning years."<br /><br />And that's why this turn in "frumkeit" is financially devastating.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11720416754276677652010-11-06T20:03:50.639-04:002010-11-06T20:03:50.639-04:00(Talmud Torah Kinneged Kulam), Oy oy oy... No - it...(Talmud Torah Kinneged Kulam), Oy oy oy... No - it doesn't mean that Torah learning is more important than any other mitzva. Look at the list that precedes it:<br />Kibud av v'em, gmilut chasadim, bringing peace between people. see http://tinyurl.com/38od5hf - Even if a child is learning Torah, they are obligated to stop in order to perform kibud av v'em.<br />So no, Torah does not have precedence above all else, and that particular mishna proves the point.<br /><br />Second... how about some real apikorsus here...? Why not send him to Yeshiva for a year and then to YU where he can get credit for the year... or if that's too expensive, to Bar Ilan (in Israel), and have him study at the Kollel there. You can get a full degree and the kollel pays something - up to full tuition plus partial room and board, depending upon which program he does - no need to make aliya - you can do it on a student visa, so no worries about the army either. <br /><br />Of course, he could be influenced by uneducated am-haaretz 'srugies' like me while he's there.<br /><br />but he could learn a little about balance from the likes of Rav Shlomo Shefer who discusses this very issue http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/shavuot/shefer.htm<br /><br />heresy, of course...Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-13302785841052464682010-11-06T19:40:32.808-04:002010-11-06T19:40:32.808-04:00Mother of boy,
I have not found one RW blog where ...Mother of boy,<br />I have not found one RW blog where the rabbis are considered infallible. Most rabbonim that I know have nothing to do with blogs. It might be great if they did set up a blog and invited some dialog on current issues in the community but so far, I haven't seen it happen.rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63340796142907471752010-11-05T17:24:50.751-04:002010-11-05T17:24:50.751-04:00It is just their inability to convince their sons ...<i>It is just their inability to convince their sons that there will one day be a reckoning. </i><br /><br />Mother, the day of reckoning could be tomorrow if the parents cut off the funds. I don't, chas veshalom, mean they kick their sons out of the house and leave them to starve. But if they make it clear that they will REFUSE to support the child if college is not in the picture somehow, most kids will come around.<br /><br />After all, most of these kids don't have jobs (as noted above) or earn very little. They can't really meet even their current needs without parental help. Your friends should cut off the funds (for clothes, transportation, etc) unless college (part time, full time, whatever) is in the picture. If it's important to them.<br />have a great Shabbos!tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29758855316407643072010-11-05T17:02:56.181-04:002010-11-05T17:02:56.181-04:00We know what the RY advice will be so we don't...We know what the RY advice will be so we don't have to ask him. So why not listen to him? Well that's how we ended up here on this blog and not some RW blog where people think that the Rabbis are infallible. We ask advice and then make in informed decision which may or may not be what the advisor has told us.<br /><br />I also think you misunderstand why we called JS a heretic. It is clearly written in the mishna that the learning of Torah is perhaps that most important of all the mitzvot (Talmud Torah Kinneged Kulam), to even compare that to watching tv? It is known that many of the great Rabbis of the past (the Ramabam, Chofetz Chaim etc) would work long enough only to provide for their needs, then learn the rest of the day. We are not on their level and and we need to save for the future, but surely it is one of the tenets of the religion that Torah learning be accorded a high priority.<br /><br />I wouldn't say we are to the left of our friends, they all went to college. Their daughters go too. It is just their inability to convince their sons that there will one day be a reckoning. Keep in mind their children are basically the same ages as ours (maybe 19 years old) and are still of the teen mindset. And perhaps the choice of Yeshiva for high school - while college is not encouraged, it is also not forbidden in my son's school, but many of our friends have their sons in a school which forbids college.Mother of 17 year oldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-69635075983297273002010-11-05T16:42:57.440-04:002010-11-05T16:42:57.440-04:00tesyaa said
"Al, sorry, but "small-town...tesyaa said<br /><br />"Al, sorry, but "small-town" values do not include making sit-down weddings for 400-600 people with $1500 dress RENTALS."<br /><br />I went to the wedding of a couple where he was from a middle-America state in a small town. The meal was filled with her family, the meal was buffet style catered by family members in the business, no pomp and circumstance. I attended a wedding of a couple from two well to do MO families in "fancy" neighborhoods, it rivaled the secular wedding I once attended in the Ritz Carlton ballroom.<br /><br />The Brooklyn Jews I know act like the Italians from Brooklyn I know... they both wear overpriced clothing, though the Italian suits are higher quality, the price is similar.<br /><br />Sorry, not seeing Frum circles as that different. Upper middle class America values conformity. I see this with my parents friends, a daughter of a professional married a tradesman, and the family was scandalized... didn't matter that he made a great income and provides for his family, he wasn't educated, and therefore was "beneath" them.<br /><br />How is that different from elevating a Section 8/WIC seeking Yeshiva student over a skilled electrician? It's NOT just income, those married to secular scholars (PhD / Professor track) are seen as marrying well, despite plumbers and electricians making WAY more money.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-77105851850273448722010-11-05T16:37:12.931-04:002010-11-05T16:37:12.931-04:00Dave,
For what it's worth, I have good friend...Dave,<br /><br />For what it's worth, I have good friends that are nominally Evangelical Christians. Nominally in that their Church is Evangelical, they are very involved, but consider themselves "not that religious." Both are PhD level Scientists, earning good but not great salaries. They didn't start a family until the wife completed her post doc.<br /><br />She described the same "pressures" that we'd see regarding family, people asking if they needed fertility specialists, etc., when they were married a few years without child. She got asked how she could work a scientist's hours and be a mom, all sorts of nonsense.<br /><br />The Mormons I know have different societal pressures, but they all have them.<br /><br />But, the Evangelicals and Mormons I know live in small town America. And one of the oddities of NYC Frum life, is that you have the "small town" aspect of everybody knowing everybody's business, since you are in a "small town" area, even though you live in a bustling metropolis.<br /><br />The MO Jews I know that live in various parts of Manhattan describe NONE of the societal pressures that the MO Jews in a "small town" enclave of NYC describe.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50242544859797495592010-11-05T16:13:20.486-04:002010-11-05T16:13:20.486-04:00From an outside perspective I see two root causes ...From an outside perspective I see two root causes here.<br /><br />Well, one root cause, and one exacerbating factor.<br /><br />The root cause is hardly unique to the Orthodox world. It is a steadfast denial that choices preclude options. (*)<br /><br /><i>Mit eyn tokhes ken men nisht tantsn oyf tsvey khasenes.</i><br /><br />Decisions have consequences, and they can be long lasting. Decisions have consequences. <br /><br />Figure out what the core things you want are, and then be prepared to jettison the rest. <br /><br />For the rest of this, I am assuming that the people in question have no interest in living off of Governmental programs or other sorts of societal largesse. (**)<br /><br />If you want a large family, you're going to have to be able to support that family. That can mean some combination of:<br /><br />1. Homeschooling instead of Day Schools.<br />2. Living outside the New York Area.<br />3. Aliyah to Israel<br />4. Delaying starting the family and/or delaying marriage.<br />5. College or specialized training for a high paying job (note: there are plenty of high paying jobs in the trades, that come without college debt, and include ready career paths).<br />6. Marry money.<br />7. Forgoing lots of "necessary" luxuries. Hint, unless you are actually disabled, "cleaning help" is in fact a luxury.<br />8. Both spouses working in shifts (meaning very limited time with each other) so that the children always have a parent at home.<br /><br />But then you get to the exacerbating factor. Pressure for social conformity. While there are aspects of the secular workplace that require conformity (for example, in terms of dress in some but by no means all fields), that largely ends outside the workplace. There isn't anything like to pressure to toe the accepted (and apparently ever-narrowing) <i>derekh</i> in all aspects of life. (***)<br /><br />And that, at least from where I sit, makes it appear much harder for people to make decisions that support their needs. If the right thing for your family is that you end up a frum Electrician who learns in the evenings a few nights a week, and you and your wife homeschool your children so that you can afford a large family, that shouldn't be something that you have to avoid because the risk of communal ostracism. <br /><br />(*) As witnessed by some exit polls, which had some of the same voters reporting that they wanted lower taxes, a reduced deficit, and an increase in Federal support for job-seekers. Math is apparently still hard.<br /><br />(**) So, do I get the <i>zchus</i> for all the learning done by bochurim who have decided to not work, and instead live off (in part) my taxes?<br /><br />(***) The Bergen County Tuition Blog commenters make it clear that this is hardly unique to RW Orthodoxy. The MO appear to have the same issue of needing communal support for any decision they make. Ironically, I don't see this pressure amongst the devout Catholics, Evangelicals, and Mormons I know.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-54324504497435978962010-11-05T15:32:06.245-04:002010-11-05T15:32:06.245-04:00Al, sorry, but "small-town" values do no...Al, sorry, but "small-town" values do not include making sit-down weddings for 400-600 people with $1500 dress RENTALS.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-2774714638539906792010-11-05T15:29:51.976-04:002010-11-05T15:29:51.976-04:00Parents of 17,
It's ironic that you won't...Parents of 17, <br />It's ironic that you won't go to your son's RY for advice even though he is by definition in the role of a religious mentor. It seems like you are to the left of your friends and your son's yeshiva. In some ways, doesn't even considering college make you a "heretic" in some of their eyes? I know you feel it's OK to call JS a heretic for espousing a more liberal viewpoint with respect to educational choices, but just realize that to some, including many in your own social circles, you are also "heretics".tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-67712884169914125672010-11-05T15:26:52.928-04:002010-11-05T15:26:52.928-04:00D,
Absolutely, RW in a small town for 100k can be...D,<br /><br />Absolutely, RW in a small town for 100k can be achieved by going to school primarily at night... I say primarily because schools have changed and some things are more difficult to schedule. Very few schools that I am familiar with have "night school" any more, most of them schedule classes during the day, at night, during weekends, and on-line, and you schedule as need be.<br /><br />Indeed, RWMO that use RW Schools but live in a MO neighborhood can get by for four children on $125k or so, again, not difficult for two college educated people.<br /><br />However, if one is MO, and want their children to receive a full education, not "enough secular education for Parnassah," but a well rounded liberal arts education in addition to Torah, it's more costly to provide that education.<br /><br />What you are describing is a function not of MO Ideology, but the intersection of Modern Orthodoxy with upper middle class values. In small down RW Orthodoxy, you get the intersection of RW values with small town values, where the emphasis isn't on the rat race, but taking care of your family.<br /><br />The RW Jews I know from small towns weren't dissimilar from the non-Jews I knew from small towns, the had small town values. Big city professional Jews have big city professional values.<br /><br />Orthodox describes behavior, not values. The values have been shoe-horned into Orthodoxy, not the other way around.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-73057093948623862412010-11-05T15:22:15.367-04:002010-11-05T15:22:15.367-04:00Father,
I take solace in the fact that I can'...Father,<br /><br />I take solace in the fact that I can't be that big of a heretic if my advice was the same as your son's Rosh Yeshiva! Granted we may have different motives...<br /><br />He's probably hoping your son will see how great learning is and give up on these college dreams while I think it presents the best face to a future employer and makes sure there are no gaps between secular schooling and the job search.<br /><br />As for the comment above about kids during college or grad school, I think this is likely a given no matter what option you pursue. I'm assuming of course that your son marries young and waits only a minimal amount of time before having children (no, I don't want to get into birth control debates or whether or not a rabbi should be determining such issues). So, if your son marries at say 20-21, no matter what option he pursues there will be a baby in the picture during college/grad school, maybe more than one. It's hard, but doable.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80285301537171108992010-11-05T15:09:32.453-04:002010-11-05T15:09:32.453-04:00Abba's Rantings:
In my several decades in the...Abba's Rantings:<br /><br />In my several decades in the MO world, I learned very clearly from many people that it's not enough to pay the bills,to have a simple job, you have to "succeed", to go to to the best universities and get the very best jobs out there. There was always this underlying disdain for those with simple jobs.<br /><br />On the other hand, for those whose goal is to get as close as possible to G-d, there are ways to make do without receiving charity and without making $250k. <br /><br />In a small community, a couple with 4 kids (that go to a haredi school) can support a family on a total income of 100k without receiving scholarship. Now, that's not too hard to reach if both work and the husband went to college. <br /><br />So, for these people (myself included), college at night, a few years in kollel, etc, does NOT mean a reliance on welfare, scholarship or charity.Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89351587492101996432010-11-05T15:07:40.915-04:002010-11-05T15:07:40.915-04:00Sorry, I was busy preparing for Shabbos, and haven...Sorry, I was busy preparing for Shabbos, and haven't logged on in a while.<br />To clarify:<br /><br />Yes the boy in question is bright and self motivated.<br /><br />The boy in question has a (very) part time job even now, even though his parents can support him because we want him to understand the value of a dollar. So does his sister. We do not provide their spending money.<br /><br />The parents in question have always paid full tuition and God willing hope to be able to do so until their youngest is out of school. With the exception of paying for college we hope to get academic scholarships. If not, CUNY schools are very affordable.<br /><br />Keep in mind that RW yeshivas have tuition in the 10-12K range which is cheaper than the more MO schools (though admittedly providing a "lesser" secular education- though said son does have 3 APs under his belt)<br /><br />As for discussing it with our friends - well yes of course we do, but many of them have fallen into the trap described above - they let their sons learn until they get married with no thoughts for the future need to provide. Then I guess it's the inlaws or they have to start school while married. Since we have already rejected that model in favor of the model that worked for us, we turn to a broader audience for discussion.Mother of 17 year oldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57734092052507289362010-11-05T15:05:57.910-04:002010-11-05T15:05:57.910-04:00Cohen, anyone who has followed any of these blogs ...Cohen, anyone who has followed any of these blogs has seen various ideas that could be put into place such as homeschooling, coop schooling, online schooling, combination, getting more volunteers from the community involved, etc. There have also been numerous ways that communities could come together to make simchas that everyone could afford. There have also been numerous suggestions for how to live within ones means, even if the means are small. <br />The problem is, and was pointed out on Harry's blog by a Conservative blogger, "it is hard to turn around a million people." <br />My feeling is that these things turn around slowly, more slowly than most of us have patience for. All it takes is for one community to call upon every member to volunteer one hour a week in their local day school, or make routine symposiums on frugal living. Then others looking for solutions grab onto the ideas and little by little change occurs.rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27030582702146016792010-11-05T15:05:35.271-04:002010-11-05T15:05:35.271-04:00I am back and that you for some of the thoughful c...I am back and that you for some of the thoughful comments. It seems that no choice gets 100% of the vote....but at least my son and I can continue our discussion.<br /><br />A few things:<br />(1) I did not need to disuss it with my sons RY; I know he would say to learn now and go to college later. I was hoping from input from more 'professional' sources. Tesyaa, I believe one can/should ask advice from anyone and everyone; I did not say I would follow the majority vote of a bunch of strangers, that would be bizarre; I was looking for some talking points on the topic. <br />(2) Many of my friends (the ones with me in yeshiva during the day and college at night) have kids who will never go to College. Yes, the RW has moved futher right, plus many RW parents are too weak to argue with their know-it-all 17-year olds. I have no explanation for this and it saddens me. Like Cohen above I have no idea why the RW ideal of the 1960-1980s which worked for hundreds of RW men is no longer appropriate. Thankfully, my son can think for himself. <br />(3) Though I am a little to the right of many commenters, I come to this site to get a reality check. For example, my 17 year old son earns his own spending money (and then some!) as the Baal Koreh in a shul. His sister earns money by lifegaurding at a local pool (Womens-only hours). During the summer they both earned money as staff members in camp (separate camps of course!). By and large, this issue alone makes me an oddball in the RW community I hang out with; Almost none have boys who earn money at all, ever. So I come here to see that I am not crazy after all (and of course for the great ORTHO-articles).<br /><br />Shabbat shalom, and an apology to anyone I offended.Father of THE 17 year oldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-24627568164584212452010-11-05T14:33:35.780-04:002010-11-05T14:33:35.780-04:00Rosie said:
"Anyone who wants to look for wa...Rosie said:<br /><br />"Anyone who wants to look for ways to still have a large family, make memorable simchas, give adequate chinuch, etc, without becoming shnorrers, have no one to discuss it with except for some anti RW MOs"<br /><br />Rosie I think you've summarized an important point. So, in all seriousness, without being branded as a RW basher, how does one do all those things without being independently wealthy of being the child of someone who is?cohennoreply@blogger.com