tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post6326762280286242510..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39480926569843699102009-03-06T11:05:00.000-05:002009-03-06T11:05:00.000-05:00I've been worried about the system crashig for yea...I've been worried about the system crashig for years, and my worst fears have been realized ealrier than I thought for people like this letter writer. When will the frum world realize that having your son/daughter in kollel with no plan for income is not a good plan? If Sugar Daddy's cash cow runs out, as it did here, everyone is up the creek. Youg people have to have their own parnasa plan, even if Mommy and Daddy are wealthy.Jewboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192751655374816191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-17336268219627978282009-02-27T10:10:00.000-05:002009-02-27T10:10:00.000-05:00The biggest problem is that the Frum Lifestyle is ...The biggest problem is that the Frum Lifestyle is crashing down on everyone. My parents paid for my undergrad and grad school at prestigious universities. The cost, even if you add my high school at a secular prep school, was less than most Frum families are paying for Pre-K - 12 at a Day School + year in Israel + schooling at a "Jewishly acceptable school."<BR/><BR/>The investment in my education lifted me into a top earning bracket right away. The same investment, spent on Yeshiva + Touro would have left me with 50% of my current earning capacity.<BR/><BR/>Looking around my community, I see plenty of families that were high earners, and made the other decision. They'll be supporting their adults kids for years.<BR/><BR/>So what, they can afford it? Accept, what happens to their kids. A Modern Orthodox family with 4 kids will likely have around 15 grandchildren. If those 4 kids aren't given the tools to earn a top living, then the grandparents will need to support the grandchildren.<BR/><BR/>Even in the "top earning years," how far does the support go split 15 ways. More importantly, what happens in the next generation, their children will NEVER be able to support their grandchildren the way they were supported.<BR/><BR/>The American Dream was for your kids to do better than you did. The Frum Lifestyle is creating children that will do worse than their parents. Touro costs more than state school tuition, gives an inferior education, and an inferior degree. The Day Schools are giving an inferior education to the public schools, and cost a lot more.<BR/><BR/>We're taking ALL our money and pumping it into these schools, and starving the next generation. If communities decided that K-3 education should be done in a Hebrew language charter (and weekly Bible stories style education on Sunday mornings), and 4-5 should be in a charter + after school learning, we could still support a "Jewish environment" for 6-12, the years that are more critical as peer pressure, sexual activity, drug use, and other "secular influences" become a concern... and for half the cost.<BR/><BR/>It wouldn't solve the problems of tuition rising much more than incomes, but would at least punt the problem down 5 or 6 years, maybe even 10 until tuition doubles after inflation again.<BR/><BR/>What percentage of Jewish money should be going to education? It can't keep going up each year while incomes don't. And we can't deny the children the tools they need to earn a living.<BR/><BR/>The new tax code is looking HIGHLY punitive towards higher earners, including possible phase outs of mortgage deduction and charitable contributions for those earning over 250k... That top 5% of American earners are heavily responsible for funding our community organization, and they are going to get squeezed in the year again.<BR/><BR/>The Frum Lifestyle needs to be affordable to the average Frum family, or they'll drift away. We can't keep squeezing every dime out of the Frum middle class.<BR/><BR/>I'm not going to tell people not to have children, that's their decision, Rosie is right. However, if you can't afford your family, and you decide to bring another life into the world, how much should the community have to support you? Is it fair to the Jewish upper middle class that doesn't get support but can't afford their lifestyle to basically make them stop having kids because they can't handle another tuition payment, but keep jacking their tuition to subsidize the poor family that keeps having kids?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14358349357215671772009-02-26T19:10:00.000-05:002009-02-26T19:10:00.000-05:00A knockout punch is one you can't get up from and ...A knockout punch is one you can't get up from and the fight is over.<BR/>This woman may be down, but she's not out. She and her husband have their health and healthy children. He obviously has good business skills and experience so while there will be tough times ahead, depending on their ages, they may be able to rebuild. Not to the level they had before, but they will survive. I do feel bad for them, but there are many so much worse off. No being able to support healthy grown children is not the same as losing your job and not being able to pay the mortgage or put food on the table.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90791358782553989142009-02-26T16:47:00.000-05:002009-02-26T16:47:00.000-05:00SL - Yeah, but this is a knockout punch, and she d...SL - Yeah, but this is a knockout punch, and she didn't see it coming. It's different from those people who complain that they have no money but never had a job or savings. She had everything... and now it's gone. It takes people time to process that their lives are completely changing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46883420330700742062009-02-26T15:28:00.000-05:002009-02-26T15:28:00.000-05:00No outrage here. Nearly everyone is being hit in ...No outrage here. Nearly everyone is being hit in some way, shape, or form by this downturn. <BR/><BR/>My annoyance is the inability to just deal with the punches life throws.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-84419857987686188792009-02-26T15:07:00.000-05:002009-02-26T15:07:00.000-05:00Is this woman in denial? Yes. But, come on, it's s...Is this woman in denial? Yes. But, come on, it's so completely understandable: if she admits that her financial world is crashing, that makes it real. I wouldn't be so hard on her. They did save, they just didn't diversify. They did have enough income to support their son-in-law learning and tuition for their other children. They aren't asking the community to chip in for ludicrous expenses, and she's willing to consider working. She's clearly too involved with appearances (mishloach manot, worrying about shidduchim), and if they'd lived a less lavish lifestyle they could have saved more. But if they'd invested those savings in the stock market - diversifying away from real estate - they would have lost large chunks of that anyway. The economy has tanked so rapidly that even financial professionals were blindsided. Yes, she needs to face reality - and quickly - or she'll actually exacerbate the problem (tell friends that you're spending more on matanot leevyonim this Purim rather than mishloach manot, tell the daughter/son-in-law to leave the beis medrash and find work NOW). But, unlike the cufflinks machatonim, I don't feel outrage at this story, just sadness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-82852614860845026962009-02-26T14:17:00.000-05:002009-02-26T14:17:00.000-05:00Read this week's Jewish Press column by Rebbitzen ...Read this week's Jewish Press column by Rebbitzen Jungreis. She advocates trimming the mishloach manot budget in favor of matanos levyonim.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-47620194838411611282009-02-26T14:02:00.000-05:002009-02-26T14:02:00.000-05:00Thinking - I used to think such people were the ma...Thinking - I used to think such people were the majority. I still think so, but I'm starting to think it's not such a strong majority anymore.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-49552726467010107672009-02-26T13:23:00.000-05:002009-02-26T13:23:00.000-05:00Repeat after me: Times are tough. We can't affor...Repeat after me: Times are tough. We can't afford "it". We'll find another way of doing things.<BR/>There, how hard was that?<BR/>I just had to tell my teenager that we need to tone down his mishloach manot program for school. He's disappointed, and went out to buy some things with his own money (the kids give each other "secret" goodies leading up to the big day they give a plate right before Purim) and he'll have to make due with whatever I give him (homemade). That's life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-12553215063242121002009-02-26T13:22:00.000-05:002009-02-26T13:22:00.000-05:00In terms of what priorities should be, I would put...In terms of what priorities should be, I would put it in this order:<BR/><BR/>1. Food<BR/>2. Medical care<BR/>3. Housing<BR/>4. Tuition<BR/>5. Educational Extras, such as camp or extracurricular activities<BR/>6. Any desired support for married children<BR/>7. Elaborate simchas<BR/>8. Expensive giftsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-66536430327627225512009-02-26T12:15:00.000-05:002009-02-26T12:15:00.000-05:00Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones. I've never r...Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones. I've never really though about it, but: <BR/>I have levelheaded, practical parents.<BR/>A levelheaded, practical spouse.<BR/>A levelheaded, practical Rav.<BR/>Levelheaded, practical siblings.<BR/>Levelheaded, practical friends.<BR/><BR/>I have never found it difficult to be realistic with my children, my spouse or our friends.<BR/>In terms of how to prioritize, I discuss it with my Rav and spouse and we make our decisions.<BR/><BR/>I assume most people are like this and we are only discussing the minority who stick out by the unreasonable requests they make.<BR/><BR/>Am I wrong?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-42176039108223643482009-02-26T10:22:00.000-05:002009-02-26T10:22:00.000-05:00I think we should give kids far more credit. I th...I think we should give kids far more credit. I think they will understand if their parents are honest and open about the changed circumstances, if the parents let them know they would prefer to be able to do the same for each child, and as long as the kids know that spending less on them doesn't mean the parents love them less they will be fine. The parents can also acknowledge that they should have saved more and discuss how the family can learn from this. Include the older kids in picking priorities for the family budget and coming up with ways to economize.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-21994821327635401872009-02-26T00:24:00.000-05:002009-02-26T00:24:00.000-05:00This is a basic tenet of our decision to homeschoo...This is a basic tenet of our decision to homeschool. We don't want to be so busy paying for "it" that we no longer have time to do "it" and find meaning in "it." Feel free to plug in your own variable for "it": learning, mitzvos, family time, walking the talk, hobbies, arts, friends, etc. etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16735846956624031312009-02-25T23:28:00.000-05:002009-02-25T23:28:00.000-05:00(This is a response to the post and Rosie's good c...(This is a response to the post and Rosie's good comment.)<BR/><BR/>That's why it's so important to get back to the basics and figure out what our bottom lines are. Until we know what we have, we can't and shouldn't be figuring out how to balance our competing interests.<BR/><BR/>In basic economics you're taught about how to weigh what to do with available resources, figuring out what use is best. That's only when you have available resources to do so, though. It seems like in our communities, everyone is at *best* weighing options that they really shouldn't even be weighing, while some don't even want to weigh and just take all the options, hoping that sometime later they'll figure out just how they can do so.<BR/><BR/>We really need to go back to the beginning and figure this all out. This family is just another good example.<BR/><BR/>As an aside, I'm betting that part of the reason it's so hard to give less to a second kid is because that kid *knows* that had they simply toned down the first one somewhat, and saved that money, they'd be in a better financial condition now to be able to give her one at least as good as that. Their irresponsibility then on behalf of one child has hurt this child, and nobody wants to take responsibility for that.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-76838593961337539742009-02-25T21:02:00.000-05:002009-02-25T21:02:00.000-05:00Competing interests meaning having lots of orchim ...Competing interests meaning having lots of orchim verses keeping a food budget? Mitzvahs that require one's time such a b'chor cholim verses going to work all day to pay tuition and there is no time for those mitzvahs? Learning Torah verses working long hours to finance the demanding lifestyle? Is this the competing mitzvahs? People are obviously pulled in many directions with the giving of tzedukah.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com