tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post6738551886178875360..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-68206150699033279522010-01-21T03:21:08.531-05:002010-01-21T03:21:08.531-05:00I didn't read all the comments here but I want...I didn't read all the comments here but I want to add mine--I live in EY and ask well-known Chareidi rabonim all of my shailos. Both times that I asked for a heter to use BC, it was granted instantly, few questions asked--and these are not makil rabonim at all. I don't understand how anyone has to resort to abortion when the rabonim are so understanding of the need to use BC and give a heter so easily.Ahuvanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60869129412129237222010-01-18T10:34:28.870-05:002010-01-18T10:34:28.870-05:00JR, as David said, make your point without insulti...JR, as David said, make your point without insulting people that you are addresses if you want an impact. People that can't handle people publicly questioning the official line aren't the target audience of this site or it would be run differently.<br /><br />Second, if the wife's actions are preventing her husband from performing a Mitzvah, doesn't that seem like something for her husband to address with her, not something for the "Rabbi" to rule on?Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10796119075440850392010-01-17T19:24:11.362-05:002010-01-17T19:24:11.362-05:00@JR,
Insulting people who make reasoned argument...@JR, <br /><br />Insulting people who make reasoned arguments is not derekh eretz. Please provide actual citations from the published tshuvot of either of the Rabbonim you cited which state the words you are putting into their mouths.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491386537225283381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-410301220649294402010-01-16T22:53:25.356-05:002010-01-16T22:53:25.356-05:00The first RJJ journal has an article about family ...The first RJJ journal has an article about family planning/birth control by Rabbi Schacter, REITS Rosh Yeshiva. It is absolutely worthwhile to call RJJ and buy a backcopy of the first journal for reference material in order to understand the mitzvah and its limits. There is other literature out there too.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-18429739745103366732010-01-16T21:09:16.749-05:002010-01-16T21:09:16.749-05:00"A woman who does not have children is still ...<i>"A woman who does not have children is still not obligated to have them, and one who intentionally puts herself in that position is still not obligated. Now, what precisely is the issue which would be dependent on the marital status of either the man or woman I'm describing?"</i><br /><br />As stated above, she cannot prevent her husband from fulfilling his mitzva unless halachically permitted to do so due to extenuating circumstances.<br /><br /><i>"So to sum up, the woman does NOT need a heter; the man might - I don't think he does, but I could see an argument that he would."</i><br /><br />As stated above, people as diverse in orientation as the Litvishe Rabbi Moshe Feinstein who was a world renowned posek, consulted on issues that other respected rabbis wouldn't touch, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe (just to name two famous and revered rabbis, of course there are hundreds more who hold as they do), both maintained that birth control-family planning is forbidden by halacha unless under specific circumstances concerning health. Yet we have numerous people commenting here who don't come up to the shoelaces of these great men, who - if you wanted to give an analogy to contrast the halachic knowledge of the people on this blog verses these men - are toddlers versus phD's.<br /><br />The people posting their opinions on halachic matters here are people without ordination and shimush and yet they have the nerve not only to say whatever they feel like on a serious halachic matter but in some cases (see above) feel they can make a mockery of the rabbis. <br /><br />You don't want to censor comments SL, but that leaves you responsible for allowing disgusting comments on your blog. There <b>is</b> accountability, you know and anonymity doesn't help.JRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34872807026245663882010-01-16T18:52:54.629-05:002010-01-16T18:52:54.629-05:00@JR: another reason why unmarried women may take t...@JR: another reason why unmarried women may take the BCP is to regulate their menstrual cycles - some women are irregular by nature, or are made severely uncomfortable. Neither of these is a hormonal problem <i>per se</i>, but those are common reasons to take them. Another commonly prescribed reason is acne control. That <i>is</i> a hormonal problem, but I don't think that's the type you're getting at.<br /><br />It's worth differentiating between the man and the woman with regard to their obligations and their <i>issurim</i>. A man who does not have children has not fulfilled the mitzvah of p'ru ur'vu, and one who intentionally puts himself in that position is <i>over</i> the <i>mitzvat aseh</i>. A woman who does not have children is still not obligated to have them, and one who intentionally puts herself in that position is still not obligated. Now, what precisely is the issue which would be dependent on the marital status of either the man or woman I'm describing?<br /><br />So to sum up, the woman does NOT need a heter; the man might - I don't think he does, but I could see an argument that he would.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89467471317551026012010-01-15T10:47:54.253-05:002010-01-15T10:47:54.253-05:00JR-I don't want to censor comments and I prefe...JR-I don't want to censor comments and I prefer my blog to be Orthodox in nature. Rarely have I got a comment through at VIN, YWN, or Matzav, so I'm on the fence about censoring. And my comments have always been informational in nature.<br /><br />I have no intention to bash. if this wasn't my community, I would put so much care into trying to promote some financial sense and look at social issues that affect families.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-54520159129484016072010-01-15T10:28:26.723-05:002010-01-15T10:28:26.723-05:00So are you saying that unmarried women can only ta...<i>So are you saying that unmarried women can only take BP for hormonal problems? </i><br /><br />Hmmm. What other reasons would you suggest?<br /><br />as for Miami Al - that's typical of his anti-Orthodox, anti-rabbi comments which ruin this blog IMO<br /><br />SL - you have some great posts but you allow your site to be ruined by allowing comments that go counter to halacha and that mock rabbis. Who is your intended audience? If you want to attract left-wing MO who are synonymous with Conservative or Reform in their religious observance, that's your prerogative but you are turning off Orthodox readers. <br /><br />Is this blog's purpose to knock yeshiva and right wing MO attitudes and lifestyle so you keep on posting articles from and about that segment of society and expressing your horror/shock/dismay/disappointment? If so, you're doing a great job. Too bad that you're generating more and more disdain if not hatred for Jews, halacha and Orthodox rabbis.JRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-84036000692715106952010-01-15T10:09:40.721-05:002010-01-15T10:09:40.721-05:00Breastfeeding suppresses the same process.
Uh, ye...<i>Breastfeeding suppresses the same process.</i><br /><br />Uh, yes. So?JRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-43020630588878447312010-01-15T08:39:30.520-05:002010-01-15T08:39:30.520-05:00Annoyance: would all the anonymous commentators wh...Annoyance: would all the anonymous commentators who say multiple things please find some way to distinguish themselves? I.e. sign your post with made up initials or something, just so others can tell who's whom. Thanks.<br /><br />Now, to respond to Anonymous 12:38 above: <br /><br />A) The burden of proof is on the person who asserts that the <i>heter</i> is required, not the one who says it isn't. <br /><br />B) <a href="http://thegameiam.livejournal.com/318486.html" rel="nofollow">I have written a more lengthy discussion of the reasoning about why a <i>heter</i> is not relevant to a woman using birth control</a>. Feel free to comment either here or there.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491386537225283381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11372768573047455862010-01-15T01:04:09.500-05:002010-01-15T01:04:09.500-05:00i think that someone who avoids tylenol for a head...i think that someone who avoids tylenol for a headache should not necessarily be considered the norm. great, its wonderful for you, but don't expect people to agree with you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57657729917440059752010-01-15T00:06:25.215-05:002010-01-15T00:06:25.215-05:00Miami Al - not sure what you were trying to say, b...Miami Al - not sure what you were trying to say, but all these problems with husbands wanting children and wives not wanting could easily be avoided before marriage when they have more than three dates prior to engagement and both agree on the size and type of family. <br /><br />But that is not the main topic of the post. The original topic was "women don't even know about an option of BC and then seek abortions" and it evolved into "why do women need a heter to use BC if they are not obligated to have children anyway" with a few side tracks like "Is BP more dangerous than tylenol or viagra" and the latest where "anonymous thinks that only married women are sexually active and I was having fun with that assumption"mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40838635748776414302010-01-14T23:51:42.138-05:002010-01-14T23:51:42.138-05:00mlevin, and nobody works through the implications....mlevin, and nobody works through the implications... <br /><br />If the husband wants children, and the wife is preventing that through birth control, that's grounds for divorce... well, duh...<br /><br />But why on earth would the wife need a heter for birth control pills? There is no mitzvah she is not fulfilling, and there is no mitzvah that she is preventing her husband from fulfilling... under Halacha, he could take a second wife (the decree expired, and secular law is another issue), he could take a concubine, or he could divorce her and take a new wife... he has plenty of options for fulfilling his mitzvah that don't involve a Rabbi dispensing medical advice for which he is NOT qualified.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-14685118217125226932010-01-14T13:25:57.951-05:002010-01-14T13:25:57.951-05:00"You simply assumed that since she is not obl..."You simply assumed that since she is not obligated in peru u'revu, therefore she can do as she pleases. That would be true if she wasn't married (and had hormonal problems for example)..."<br /><br />I just love this comment. Priceless. So are you saying that unmarried women can only take BP for hormonal problems? What about men who are straying? Do they need to force women to stop taking BP too unless it's for hormonal reasons? Or does the heter getting only applies to wives? <br /><br />Here's how it would work:<br />Man "I'm married, but I'd like to have relations with you, but first you have to tell me that you are not taking BP for contraceptive purposes..."<br /><br />I just love it.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27554427799033447272010-01-14T12:43:33.976-05:002010-01-14T12:43:33.976-05:00suppressing a normal bodily function day after day...<i>suppressing a normal bodily function day after day, month after month and year after year ought to freak us out, but it doesn't because, hey, it's convenient.</i><br /><br />Breastfeeding suppresses the same process.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-5023543916504945992010-01-14T12:38:38.425-05:002010-01-14T12:38:38.425-05:00"Argument by assertion is not a valid techniq...<i>"Argument by assertion is not a valid technique, and the burden of proof is on you, not on me."</i><br /><br />You were the one who made the assertion that the woman doesn't need a heter and you didn't back yourself up with a source. You simply assumed that since she is not obligated in peru u'revu, therefore she can do as she pleases. That would be true if she wasn't married (and had hormonal problems for example), but since she is married, as I stated, she needs to know whether (and how) she can prevent her husband from doing a mitzva he is obligated in. Using a contraceptive without halachic sanction would be a violation of "lifnei iver lo siten michshol" - do not put a stumbling block before the blind, and if the husband wanted more children and the wife did not and did not have a halachic reason to use birth control, that would be halachic grounds for divorce.<br /><br />If women had no reason to ask for a heter, rabbis would tell them so rather than ask them questions about their health etc. in order to determine how to proceed. According to your approach, rabbis would simply say, when asked by women, "It's up to you, that's not a question for a rav."<br /><br /><i>"Which is of course why Viagra and Cialas failed in the marketplace."</i><br /><br />As I noted earlier, we are a pill-popping society and this mentality is not exclusive to women. We even medicate kids by giving them phony medical diagnoses which translate into: they don't behave, they don't pay attention, but that's another topic.<br /><br />As for all drugs having a global effect, I agree with you, which is why I even avoid using Tylenol, but I see the difference as follows - Tylenol is used to temporarily relieve a headache, Viagra is used to temporarily increase blood flow. Birth control methods such as the Pill "fool" the pituitary gland so that it produces less of the hormones needed for ovulation to occur. I think that tampering by suppressing a <b>normal bodily function</b> such as ovulation is very different than pain relief or something done for a temporary effect (though that too can be dangerous and we need to be careful) and suppressing a normal bodily function day after day, month after month and year after year ought to freak us out, but it doesn't because, hey, it's convenient.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16285415895610585602010-01-14T10:51:59.203-05:002010-01-14T10:51:59.203-05:00I'm with Dave. Modern oral contraceptives are...I'm with Dave. Modern oral contraceptives are hardly the most dangerous drug among those that are taken on a regular basis. And the pluses outweight the minuses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-54779356152748669632010-01-13T21:17:49.155-05:002010-01-13T21:17:49.155-05:00No comparison to an implanted IUD or pills taken 1...<i>No comparison to an implanted IUD or pills taken 1) day after day 2)has to affect her constantly and consistently 3)affect the woman's body globally <br /><br />Viagra has potential side effects too. So does Tylenol and Advil. What they have in common is that they are meant to be taken occasionally and their effect is brief.</i><br /><br />First, all drugs have global effect.<br /><br />There is evidence that the effect of Viagra on the optic nerve can cause blindness.<br /><br />And Tylenol is potentially lethal -- but you get four days or so to realize that you killed yourself before you die, unless a transplant can be found.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41316095179347560852010-01-13T18:42:46.292-05:002010-01-13T18:42:46.292-05:00@Anon 6:27:
Please provide a source (or at least ...@Anon 6:27:<br /><br />Please provide a source (or at least a rationale!) as to why a <b>wife</b> who is <b>not obligated</b> in this mitzvah would need a heter to use contraception which does not require any involvement of her husband (i.e. BCP, IUD, etc, not condoms). Argument by assertion is not a valid technique, and the burden of proof is on you, not on me.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491386537225283381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-26940771862033428932010-01-13T18:27:38.970-05:002010-01-13T18:27:38.970-05:00Of course they need a heter to know whether they c...Of course they need a heter to know whether they can prevent their husbands from fulfilling the mitzva and if so, with which method.<br /><br />As for Viagra, it is 1) taken as needed 2)lasts up to four hours <br /><br />No comparison to an implanted IUD or pills taken 1) day after day 2)has to affect her constantly and consistently 3)affect the woman's body globally <br /><br />Viagra has potential side effects too. So does Tylenol and Advil. What they have in common is that they are meant to be taken occasionally and their effect is brief.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29593048099332248212010-01-13T16:52:48.510-05:002010-01-13T16:52:48.510-05:00The direction this comment thread has gone is one ...The direction this comment thread has gone is one reason I think it's important to stress the following:<br /><br /><b>women are not obligated in the mitzvah of p'ru u'rvu</b>.<br /><br />This means that they <b>do not need a heter regarding contraception</b>.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491386537225283381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70584953868767134752010-01-13T14:36:22.414-05:002010-01-13T14:36:22.414-05:00Anonymous 1:52 - by misleading women to think that...Anonymous 1:52 - by misleading women to think that BP are more dangerous than pregnancies and by not teaching them that they have an option of not getting pregnant, these people are forcing women to 1. get pregnant against their will. 2. takes away their freedom to do something other than spend their lives raising children. 3. keeps them busy and in ignorance to question their lot and validity of authority of those making decisions on their behave.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90134449256372955722010-01-13T14:30:20.273-05:002010-01-13T14:30:20.273-05:00Women still die from childbirth, yes, today, even ...Women still die from childbirth, yes, today, even in the good old US of A. Women still become disabled from pregnancies today. There are other more common risks that come from childbearing which are not immediately noticed but are chronic, meaning these women have to deal with the for the rest of their lives; such as tooth decay and loss, heart conditions, diabetes, kidney and liver problems, leg pains and etc.<br /><br />There are also many times when doctors prescribe BP for women and teens to alleviate many conditions which have nothing to do with pregnancy prevention. These things are hormonal imbalance, severe menstrual pains, moods swings and etc. <br /><br />Thus if you put both on scale the risks from pregnancy outweigh risks from BP by a lot and benefits from BP outweigh benefits from pregnancy by a lot.<br /><br />P.S. - No one said that women should not be having any children, but forcing women into pregnancy is wrong, even Torah does not force women to do so, by specifically mentioning that having children is a commandment for men only.mlevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01831542484906424230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25313614190189423542010-01-13T14:07:27.815-05:002010-01-13T14:07:27.815-05:00anon 1:57 here. i think that it's kind of sill...anon 1:57 here. i think that it's kind of silly if this comes down to a discussion of whether bc is healthy or dangerous. that really has nothing to do with the mitzvah of pru ur'vu. many orthodox jews seem to swing far right when it comes to natural healing, and that is of course all right for them. but to claim for it to be objectively right...again, a bit silly when you take into consideration the wide range of people you are talking to.<br />anon 1:26, i don't know if you are a man or a woman. but the side affects you mentioned on the pill - especially the severe ones! are often just normally associated with natural hormones. which women have anyway. women aren't suckers, they were born with this type of thing.<br />the pill is not the only type of bc. many use the hormonal IUD (diff side affects than the copper) with little to no problems. many have many problems. without bc. personally, i'll take the problems that come with the bc, and leave those that come with too many children underfoot.<br />i don't think it's really fair of anyone here to say "halacha says". halacha - especially orthodox halacha is so nuanced and diverse. maybe *your* rabbi says. <br />my understanding of the halacha is that one is meant to find joy in your family life, not be burdened under the strain of providing for so many small children. if you can manage a large brood - harei zeh meshubach! good for you! but if you are struggling to make it work as it is, please don't have another just yet.<br /><br />oh and as for heterim for stay at home moms but not for working moms! is that only in israel where she would get a paid 14 week maternity leave? i'm a working mom, and i know i need my work to keep me sane, and to keep food on our table. if i spent too many months out of x amount of years at home nursing babies, i wouldn't be getting very far in either department.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80213283252386013282010-01-13T13:52:40.706-05:002010-01-13T13:52:40.706-05:00The list is much longer. What man would willingly ...<i>The list is much longer. What man would willingly subject himself to taking something that affects his hormones? Women are suckers.</i><br /><br />Which is of course why Viagra and Cialas failed in the marketplace.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.com