tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post7483554176890184386..comments2024-02-21T05:24:49.494-05:00Comments on Orthonomics: Guest Post: Some Economic Observations on the Current Kiruv FrameworkOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34578403435435904182011-01-03T14:50:20.603-05:002011-01-03T14:50:20.603-05:00Something to keep in mind: rewards may only underm...Something to keep in mind: rewards may only undermine internal motivation when it already exists. For example, Loveland & Olley (1979) showed that Lepper and colleagues' results only held for individuals with initial motivation. The rewards actually increased motivation in kids who didn't find the activity fun to begin with.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53260422663640668302010-12-29T23:47:47.084-05:002010-12-29T23:47:47.084-05:00A few years ago, I signed up for a learning progra...A few years ago, I signed up for a learning program through a kiruv rabbi on campus before I was even aware that it involved getting $500. The other students who signed up did know they were getting $500, and the program was thoroughly boring because others cared less that I did, and now I am the only one still involved in traditional Judaism.Alex Howiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00481915754900050766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-44347176031851991322010-12-27T13:04:28.743-05:002010-12-27T13:04:28.743-05:00I'm really surprised no one has mentioned the ...I'm really surprised no one has mentioned the success Aish (and others) have had at kiruv for wealthy, successful professionals, many of whom essentially pay FOR kiruv by making significant donations to the organization.<br /><br />See the article on the "Executive Learning Program".<br /><br />http://www.aish.com/ai/bn/ba/96875294.htmltesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-7610297477111674412010-12-27T12:59:21.409-05:002010-12-27T12:59:21.409-05:00Are we really to believe that "shelo lishmah&...Are we really to believe that "shelo lishmah" crowds out or prevents "lishmah"? Why do we teach about Divine reward and punishment at all, given the "risk" that someone would then go and do the right thing for not totally altruistic reasons?<br /><br />In the case under discussion, involving payment for doing things that are already obligations for Jews (not only kiruvees), it's inevitable that some will get involved in order to cash in. The other side of this is that some who start off this way may grow to see the inner truth and progress toward lishmah. While studies such as those Dr. Aldrich cites can be instructive, I'd like to see some (maybe he can be persuaded to do one) specifically in the kiruv context.<br /><br />Such initiatives vary in purpose and scope, and the outlooks and abilities of the rabbinic leaders also vary, so generalization may be misleading. I know one rabbi who innovated one such university-level approach starting in the Midwest, and he's one of the finest, most inspiring people I've ever met. He has been a success at kiruv in whatever form.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882748518758064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60068856227929970782010-12-27T12:52:51.624-05:002010-12-27T12:52:51.624-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882748518758064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-6435615517338756102010-12-27T11:54:31.223-05:002010-12-27T11:54:31.223-05:00I was part of a group of friends who all became re...I was part of a group of friends who all became religious in high school, partly through NCSY. During our seminary year, many of us denied being baalai tshuva when asked point blank. (I don't remember if I denied it or not, honestly, but I know others who did). The perception that baalai tshuva have emotional problems and/or dysfunctional family backgrounds is very strong. I don't know if there's a correlation, but it seems possible. <br /><br />Along the lines of Miami Al's comments, my motivation for becoming religious in my teens has to do with coming from a family that was not "Orthodox" but nonetheless very religiously involved, i.e. Friday night kiddush, kosher and kosher for Passover, Hebrew school, shul every single Shabbos morning. If you want to continue this lifestyle, where is there to go from there, socially and religiously? The chance of meeting friends and a future spouse with a similar background is small.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27080941563038230862010-12-27T11:32:03.940-05:002010-12-27T11:32:03.940-05:00I know a guy from a MO Yeshiva who pretended to be...I know a guy from a MO Yeshiva who pretended to be reform so he could get free room at board at a hostle for Ba'alei Tshuva college students in Israel. He was outed by a guy from home who ran into him while he was with one of the guys who ran the hostle. Let's just say it turned into a hotile situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-15136389292883524102010-12-27T11:11:33.396-05:002010-12-27T11:11:33.396-05:00I can attest to the fact that these outreach progr...I can attest to the fact that these outreach programs can defintely backfire. My personal experience, as a non-observant Jew who is professionallly successful,is that many of those who hang out at Chabbad Houses appear to be real losers. Many of the guys, who were actually not born in observant families, had marginal educations and were unemployed. They had no interest in the outside world and appeared to be waiting for a better deal in the world to come. What a turn off. I am not intending to hurt anyone's feelins really has been my experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-26631262005785200152010-12-27T10:18:47.089-05:002010-12-27T10:18:47.089-05:00Anon426,
I think you and are are largely in agree...Anon426,<br /><br />I think you and are are largely in agreement in concept, just disagreeing in terminology.<br /><br />I think that learning is valuable in and of itself, but I believe that the value of learning in terms of preservation of Yiddishkeit is pretty close to nil (and history agrees, the handful of people that can trace their lineage back to the centers of Jewish learning are tiny and make a big deal of it, those that can trace it back to more integrated areas dominate the population).<br /><br />I don't know that counting families is good, or bad. I just know of the hundreds of families I knew that were Jewish, most didn't "do much Jewish" beyond whatever was done in their family. Those that did a lot in their family have generally in-married children with strong identities (not 100%, but mostly), those that did little in their family have generally inter-married children. -- I am counting spousal conversion as in-married, even though the conversion might not be 100% under Halacha.<br /><br />My point was that most non-Orthodox Jews have mostly negative experiences with Judaism... those that have positive experiences tend to remain attached to Judaism, those with negative experiences tend to disappear.<br /><br />One of the most positive aspects of Chabad Kiruv is giving Jewish youngsters a positive impression of Judaism, particularly it's observant wing.<br /><br />Look the Kiruv "success stories" tend to involve the mental cases, I get that. But what I've seen, via Facebook, is much more of what the Conservative leadership is bemoaning.<br /><br />A Reform/Conservative "success" case, involved, Hebrew High School, Jewish Summer camps, at college went to Hillel, affiliated with Jewish social clubs, dated amongst the Jewish population... The people we are talking about. Lots of them have floated into the Modern Orthodox sphere. Because if you are looking for a real expression of Judaism, it happens more there.<br /><br />Positive Experiences = Interest in Judaism<br /><br />Amongst my crew of involved families, there was strong identity and involvement. But when I think back to Hebrew School, we really were a small fraction of the group. In college I met plenty of secular Jews who had never been to synagogue, Hebrew school, Jewish camp, etc., maybe a Seder or two growing up. Looking at your involved group years later, you see a "handful" being frum (5%, 10%, 3%). What about the Jewish kids from your high school NOT affiliated with those groups? Are they more like your full assimilated sister or the non-observant religious one?Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-91986009011031650122010-12-27T09:03:39.810-05:002010-12-27T09:03:39.810-05:00Miami Al,
I'm not sure counting families in t...Miami Al,<br /><br />I'm not sure counting families in the synogogue is a good way to judge how many kids held onto Yiddishkeit. It was more loosey-goosey than that. I hardly ever went to synagogue. All the "happening" Jewish activities were taking place in people's homes. (West Mt. Airy in Philadelphia -- anyone reading this know of it??)<br /><br />I am in touch with many of my old Habonim friends via Facebook. While a small handful became frum, it seems that the overwhelming majority maintain a string Jewish identity, ie marrying "in", kids in Hebrew school, etc.<br /><br />Clearly the very positive experience we had back then was more influential than any learning we did (which was none).<br /><br />I had one sister in Hashomer Hatzair. I was Habonim. And one sister who had no Jewish "chevra" to speak of.<br /><br />My Hashomer sister maintains her strong Jewish identity but remains completely outside the religious world. The other sister remains completely outside Yiddishkeit. She even seems either unable or unwilling to pronounce the "ch" in my daughter's name.anon426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53786269473361511132010-12-27T08:49:36.405-05:002010-12-27T08:49:36.405-05:00I also had similar experiences as a college studen...I also had similar experiences as a college student traveling through Israel. Free shabos dinners and arranged at the Kotel and free tours, meals, and lodging in Tsfat by a Chabad group. I have to admit I was poor at the time and went for the freebies. These activies were clearly targeted at potential Baal Teshuva. Problem was those who bought into it often had deep seated emotional problems, including one guy who was formally diagnosed with bi-polar disorder and stopped taking his meds, that could not be cured by a massive dose of Torah study or taking on an observant lifestyle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-91932505644511842302010-12-27T08:26:48.860-05:002010-12-27T08:26:48.860-05:00When I was in college, I used to go the the local ...When I was in college, I used to go the the local Chabad House for a free shabos dinner and free alcohol on Purim. We actually made them our first stop before we went to frat parties. This did not make me or my friends want to be more observant. I found out later that a girl I met through these free dinners did, however, become Baal Tsuvah. She had some obvious emotional problems at the time, and I later learned through experience and talking with former Chabad members that they tend to attract a lot of Jews with drug problems who never got proper treatment because they listened to some know nothing Chabad Rabbi. This might help to explain some of the dysfunctionality described by many on orthodox leaning blogs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-91951946626895704262010-12-26T13:53:45.632-05:002010-12-26T13:53:45.632-05:00I really enjoyed How to hold on to your kids. Payi...I really enjoyed How to hold on to your kids. Paying attention to issue of attachment and some minor ways it plays out has been tremendously helpful for us. It's very easy to line up a "play date" lunch with kids to play with, which the children enjoy, but cut into parent-child time. It is very difficult after a long week to spent the quantity of time (a little quality time during the week is easy).<br /><br />I agree with JS. If you have a strong parent-child bond, the child is very likely to pick up on the parent's values. If you have a weak one, there is very little likelihood of transmittal.<br /><br />If your concern is that your children, as adults, will choose to continue following in your path, then a strong parent-child relationship is key. If your concern is that your child EVER flips a light switch on Shabbat, then lifetime control is key. Plenty friends that did the RWMO -> YU cycle that used the freedom of being college students at YU as an informal Rumspringa, only to return to Yiddishkeit as adults.<br /><br />Is that a successful transmittal?<br /><br />Is that a failure because the child was non-frum for 2-4 years?<br /><br />In terms of the 1%, maybe that's too small, 2%? 4%? It isn't high. My parent's synagogue had 400 families when I was growing up... one serious hard-core egalitarian observant family (mom leined at the synagogue, Israeli dancing at the Bar Mitzvah, Shabbat observant home)... a handful of active families with kids at Jewish summer camps. And then the "getting Bar Mitzvah'd circuit."<br /><br />Anon 426, how many families in your synagogue growing up, and how many were "into things?'Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-87358166125371227032010-12-26T12:29:29.185-05:002010-12-26T12:29:29.185-05:00SL:
"I think a great follow up discussion mi...SL:<br /><br />"I think a great follow up discussion might be rewards in Jewish (yeshiva) education. Many parents are concerned about what the constant flow of prizes, raffles, rewards are doing to internal motivation, and middot."<br /><br />i can tell you that in my son's public school they use rewards too. not as extravagant as in his yeshivah and not as incesant (and certainly not with candy as in his yeshivah), but i don't know if it's exclusively a yeshivah problem. (on the other hand, my wife works in a public school and she was shocked by the use of rewards in my son's school, so maybe it isn't that common in public schools and my son is an exception?)Abba's Rantingshttp://abbasrantings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51995880407726333232010-12-26T11:44:19.387-05:002010-12-26T11:44:19.387-05:00@JS - it is not "cache 22" but "Cat...@JS - it is not "cache 22" but "Catch-22" - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22.Anonymous in Teaneckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14712885391619014289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72451865531473621892010-12-26T09:19:47.540-05:002010-12-26T09:19:47.540-05:00I guess I used my comment to angst a little about ...I guess I used my comment to angst a little about my own situation vis a vis my kids. Yes, I agree with your reply, JS. And thanks, Shoshana for posting the link to R. Neufeld's site.<br /><br />One question I'm interested in knowing the answer to is this:<br /><br />What do we know about behavior or children vis a vis internal/external motivators? Does it mirror the behavior of adults? Or is it different for them?anon426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-22712954886705775392010-12-26T08:24:41.211-05:002010-12-26T08:24:41.211-05:00anon426,
I think the relationship with the parent...anon426,<br /><br />I think the relationship with the parents is really key in transmitting any set of values to kids be it religious, moral, ethical, or otherwise. If that relationship is strong there is at least the possibility of transmitting values, if the relationship is weak it's more of a crapshoot.<br /><br />I don't know how old your kids are, but when they are older and start making decisions of your own, the relationship you have with them is going to shape how they process outside influences.<br /><br />The important thing now, in my opinion, is to show your kids how much Judaism means to you while fostering as close and open a relationship as you can with them. If Judaism is something you shove down their throats or something only worth doing for a bribe, Judaism will not be valued down the line when it comes time in their lives to make their own decisions. Further, if their relationship with you is weak there's less reason to follow in your footsteps.<br /><br />All that said, each child is his/her own person. No one is a carbon copy of you, the parent. But, if a kid is not going to choose your values and religious observance, better to have a good relationship with them despite that than one clouded by memories of forcing them to wake up early for shul and yelling at them for not making brachot or whatever.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60104133062853720052010-12-26T08:20:36.366-05:002010-12-26T08:20:36.366-05:00So happy to see Dr. Neufeld mentioned here again. ...So happy to see Dr. Neufeld mentioned here again. I can't say enough times how important his work is. Find his website here - http://gordonneufeld.comShoshana Z.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85898797698208312282010-12-26T08:00:11.659-05:002010-12-26T08:00:11.659-05:00SL you completely read my mind with this comment:
...SL you completely read my mind with this comment:<br /><br />"I think a great follow up discussion might be rewards in Jewish (yeshiva) education. Many parents are concerned about what the constant flow of prizes, raffles, rewards are doing to internal motivation, and middot."<br /><br />R. Aldrich's article is very interesting and the discussion comments have been interesting as well. Reading them prompted me to think about my own kids and then your comment came along!<br /><br />Throughout my 15 years of frumkeit I have frequently struggled with my level of observance. <br /><br />I'm one of those Yidden who had very positive non-frum experiences growing up. Miami Al supposes 1% but there were a lot of us so I'm thinking it has to be more than that. <br /><br />There was a strong and warm chavurah presence in the neighborhood where I grew up. My labor zionist summer camp experience totally rocked. :-) Without a doubt these positive experiences contributed to my wish to spend my life as a shomer Shabbos Yid, immersed in the Jewish community.<br /><br />For a variety of reasons my own kids are just not that "into it". I am conflicted about how much to push them (ie make them sing zemiros and they will come to see how fun it is and how much they like it), how much to entice them with external motivation (ie give them candy to go to shul), and how much to simply leave them alone, make it cozy and comfy and fun for them, so that when they are older and ready to choose their path in life they will feel pulled toward Yiddishkeit. My natural inclination is #3, but it's something I am by no means certain of and I struggle with it constantly. Am I simply a lazy (tired, really) parent? My co-parent is very confident that strategy #1 (pushing them) is the way to go, but I feel it has contributed to their lack of enthusiasm over all. But maybe my reluctance to push them has just given them an out, ie it's easier to hang out in bed on Friday night than come to the Shabbos table.<br /><br />I find this information about internal and external motivation to be very interesting and I wonder how it works with kids. Do the data apply to children as well? Kids are certainly internally motivated for many things, but perhaps they have more room for accepting external motivators before it starts to crowd out the internal motivators.<br /><br />My oldest son has had some behavior problems in school and the administration is motivating him with various behavioral techniques (ie charts, slurpees, cold hard cash) to work hard to control himself so as not to disrupt the class. They do what they have to to make things work. I have to think that in time, with the help of external motivation, my son will figure out how to behave better. But in light of this article I wonder about the longterm. Is all this external motivation going to backfire ultimately? I'm not sure what their other options are. They believe my son is very special and are concerned about "losing him." (lately it has come to light that he has a learning disability and hopefully managing that will help with the other behavior problems)<br /><br />One reason I am such a big fan of <i>Hold On To Your Kids</i> is I think Dr. Neufeld gets to the heart of what inspires kids from the inside... namely strong relationships with responsible adults starting with (but not ending with!) the parents. He even observes that the weakening of child-adult relationships has correlated inversely with the rise of behavior modification "tricks" (i.e. external motivators) that parents have to rely on to get cooperation from their kids.anon426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16393581878084067912010-12-25T20:18:42.984-05:002010-12-25T20:18:42.984-05:00Bewildered,
If a secular kid is exposed to colleg...Bewildered,<br /><br />If a secular kid is exposed to college Kiruv, and marries another Jew, is that a success if they never become Frum but he "gets" his heritage? What if he doesn't become Frum, but goes to Chabad twice/year instead of a Reform Temple twice/year, is that a success?<br /><br />What if he becomes quasi-observant, but doesn't go to Israel to learn? What if he becomes observant, but doesn't go to Israel to learn? Is the only goal to get more kids to go to Yeshiva in Israel and drop out of college?<br /><br />Is there even any evidence that secular kids exposed to Kiruv that go to Israel to learn are any more observant in the long run?Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-8538378731244724922010-12-25T11:43:58.350-05:002010-12-25T11:43:58.350-05:00Ari,
I don't know that anyone is questioning t...Ari,<br />I don't know that anyone is questioning the mesiras nefesh of those that do kiruv work. Most of the people I know who do this work, including yourself are really on the "front lines" doing something that many see a value in doing. Yet, if indeed $60 million dollars has been spent on kiruv (by whom?) in today's world there needs to be a very serious look at that return on investment. While I may have exaggerated about keg parties, I have heard from someone who has worked on a major college campus that some mekarvim are held to a "numbers game" and if a kid isn't "moving along" then they are dropped like a "hot potato" in favor of someone else who could help boost their numbers. Is this what it's all about? Look at the success of birthright. They can point to studies that show what effect a birthright trip has on a participant and the likelihood that it will increase the chance that someone will marry Jewish and become active in the Jewish community. What is the ultimate goal of college kiruv? Sending people to Eretz Yirsroel to learn?Bewilderednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16770826659575869382010-12-24T16:32:13.194-05:002010-12-24T16:32:13.194-05:00JS,
"at worst a bunch of schnorrers looking ...JS,<br /><br />"at worst a bunch of schnorrers looking to score a free meal before heading out to get drunk and have sex "<br /><br />Funny thing about that, most of the Orthodox kids all looked like a bunch of schnorrers... They showed up to Hillel every week for a free meal, but when the organization charged dues, they'd never ante up. They sat in their own table and wouldn't talk to anyone. The most successful Kiruv on campus were the few "normal" Orthodox kids who were just friends with other people. I'd guess that of the handful of observant people that didn't arrive at college that way, that was a big part of it.<br /><br />Most useful Kiruv, within a 2 year span, the Jewish fraternity and Jewish sorority each pledged a MO kid. The integrated socialization was huge. I don't know how much that did for "kiruv," but it resulted in 150+ people over a 7 year period to have an Orthodox friend instead of thinking of them in caricature (there really are so few Frum Jews that most Americans will go their entire life without meeting one).<br /><br />To my knowledge, both of those individuals are still Frum despite being exposed to secular Jewish life.<br /><br />I presume there are plenty of college students that do lots of drugs and have lots of sex. That certainly didn't describe the secular Jewish people I know. Life in secular Jewish America really isn't a debased orgy, it's mostly socially awkward kids trying to get into good colleges and live up to parental expectations.<br /><br />My wife went to a very "diverse" high school, plenty of people dropped out because they got pregnant. Not one of them was Jewish.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-22501659309915546602010-12-24T14:28:36.866-05:002010-12-24T14:28:36.866-05:00It's the great cache 22 of kiruv: If you want ...It's the great cache 22 of kiruv: If you want to attract non-frum kids, you need Orthodox kids to get out of their enclaves and interact with other people, but if Orthodox kids leave their enclaves, they may not remain frum.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-47561219777471316672010-12-24T14:13:08.706-05:002010-12-24T14:13:08.706-05:00I think that offering money to attend kiruv events...I think that offering money to attend kiruv events demeans religion. It suggests that if the mormons or buddhists or whoever are offering more, then go to the highest bidder (not that I can envision buddhists doing this). I agree with js, however, that getting ones foot in the door is the problem, and that you have to have a way to show secular and non-orthodox jews that orthodox jews are "normal," nonjudgmental and warm and good people to spend time with. Therefore, wouldn't it make more sense to make sure that more orthodox people are stepping outside of their isolation and getting to know other jews as fellow students, team mates, and colleagues, etc. In other words, the best college kiruv might be to have orthodox students who are interested in kiruv actually attend college and interact with others as fellow classmates and peers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-68978362401846164422010-12-24T11:43:54.251-05:002010-12-24T11:43:54.251-05:00Paying students in this way reminds me of the mode...Paying students in this way reminds me of the model used a few decades back when some yeshivas and other organizations capitalized on grant money to open up college programs. They signed up Russian immigrants who showed low income and so qualified for scholarships that also left over enough for a stipend. Then the yeshivas who hosted made money, the colleges who participated made money, and the students made money. No one ever got a degree, though, which tipped the government off. That was the end of that, except for Touro that still has programs going for Russian students.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.com