tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post7521974694752230784..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72571629930985447152008-09-24T03:03:00.000-04:002008-09-24T03:03:00.000-04:00Ora,It is an unreasonable assumption. But in the o...Ora,<BR/><BR/>It is an unreasonable assumption. But in the other direction.<BR/><BR/>A family with five children has higher non-education related expenses (clothing, housing, food) than a family with two children. It would have in fact been more reasonable to assume that the family that could only afford full tuition for two children would be able to pay even less if they had five children.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10434112559795347082008-09-24T02:54:00.000-04:002008-09-24T02:54:00.000-04:00The real issue is simply that people need to reali...The real issue is simply that people need to realize that education for their children is their responsibility. <BR/><BR/>Children come from Hashem, but doctors have figured out pretty well how to keep them from showing up. <BR/><BR/>I'll say it again: scholarships are for those who are going through tough times, not for those who didn't bother to check their salary before they went off the pill (or decided not to go on it)<BR/><BR/>The Torah says to support the poor person, the widow, the orphan. It doesn't say to support the poor planner.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32127959015800864612008-09-24T02:20:00.000-04:002008-09-24T02:20:00.000-04:00Dave--Why are you assuming that a family with five...Dave--<BR/>Why are you assuming that a family with five kids will only be able to pay as much as a family with two kids? That's completely unreasonable.<BR/><BR/>Usually what happens is that a larger family makes more sacrifices. They live in a more crowded space, they live further out of town, they don't go on vacation, both parents work out of the home, etc. Of course tuition gets harder with more kids, but there's no simple formula where after 3 kids people can no longer pay. Sorry, but the math done using such simplified and inaccurate assumptions is not very useful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90440061728803502162008-09-23T21:10:00.000-04:002008-09-23T21:10:00.000-04:00anon mom - Mark, I think if you are going to choos...<I>anon mom - Mark, I think if you are going to choose, you should choose to have more kids and prostrate yourself before the tuition committee. You have to get off that ridiculous Public School warpath. It's a road to nowhere. For G-d's Sake!!!!! You are driving me nuts with it, already.</I><BR/><BR/>Oy vey! What warpath??? I've only mentioned public school 2 or 3 times on this blog. All 5 of my children go to [frum] Jewish day schools, and 7 nieces and nephews all go to [frum] Jewish day schools. I and all my siblings went to Jewish day school. Even my sister-in-law that married a non-Jew sends her kids to Jewish day school! My sister-in-law in Israel (who is not dati) sends her kids to mamlachti dati school. And my sister-in-law in Baltimore sends her kids to [conservative] Jewish day school.<BR/><BR/>I think you are missing the point.<BR/><BR/><I>anon mom - I'd rather pay the extra thousand or two so your kids don't wind up in Public School, Mark. I know many Yeshiva parents who would say the same. Those of you that don't want to do that, then go ahead. Like I said before, I've been the recipient of tuition committee help and it's the way our communities work. I'm proud of that.</I><BR/><BR/>My parents accepted some help in the early 70's when my father was unemployed (and we were "homeless" - i.e. moved in with my grandparents for the year of unemployment), but my father paid back every single penny over the next 5 years, *WHILE* paying tuition for 4 kids. He told me that for many of those years, more than 50% of his *GROSS* salary went to the two schools (Etz Chaim and Shulamit in Boro Park) we attended.<BR/><BR/><I> Whether the math works in the end is an issue that needs to be addressed, but in the meantime, Public School is not a choice for us.</I><BR/><BR/>So now I will explain my point once again. It has nothing to do with individuals and everything to do with community. The point is that the community as a whole is limiting the number of children they have - and the most often stated excuse is high tuition.<BR/><BR/>Many/most people (including me) believe that the community (as an aggregate) cannot afford to send all the children to private Jewish day schools. And the community certainly cannot afford to send additional potential children either. Let's say, for instance, that a particular community (not in the NY area) has 700 families with 2000 children. Let's further assume that there are 4 main Jewish schools in the area that can handle 1600 students, and a further 150 students commute to other Jewish schools an hour plus away, and the remaining 250 kids go to local non-Jewish prep schools or to public schools. Let's further say that the Federation has had a very tough year of fundraising and is reducing their contribution to these schools by approximately $1.2 million this year. The schools, already in the hole by about $150k+ each, have been vigorously fundraising, but so have the shuls, and so has the local kollel (which is dwindling due to lack of funds). The mikvah (the only one within about 45 minutes away) needs $40-50k of work, and one of the schools just was informed that their rental building is not being renewed next year.<BR/><BR/>Now let's say that this year, not all the money necessary can be raised, though everyone has tried mightily. And let's further say that the tuition assistance committees have pretty much run out of money and have even informed all parents on assistance that their level of assistance has to be reduced by 5% because there simply is no more money available at all. Would you say that people of modest means in that community should choose not to have a 4'th or 5'th child this year or next year? Or would you counsel them otherwise? Where exactly would you suggest that they get funds to send those additional children to school?<BR/><BR/>New York City has been very (VERY) lucky over the past few years because there has been enormous wealth flowing around Wall Street, with many frum people working in that business and having great success. That is pretty much ending, just ask any investment banker around, especially the ones that are the biggest baalei tzedaka. Unfortunately, it is now possible that many Jewish organizations in New York City might now feel what many Jewish organizations outside the metro area have been feeling the last year or two.<BR/><BR/>Mark [5 kids, 2 in day school, 3 in pre-school, more than $4k a month]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-6617105581232617242008-09-23T10:11:00.000-04:002008-09-23T10:11:00.000-04:00Math correction (what I get for writing things lat...Math correction (what I get for writing things late at night). In the first case with 30 children all on tuition waivers, it's $72,000 per classroom, not $60,000. So we only have a deficit of $108,000 per classroom, nearly $1.3 million for an entire school.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19889849709929368472008-09-23T03:07:00.000-04:002008-09-23T03:07:00.000-04:00It reminds me of the old joke about the young man ...It reminds me of the old joke about the young man meeting his future father-in-law.<BR/><BR/>What do you plan to do for a living?<BR/>G-d will provide.<BR/>How do you plan to care for your children? <BR/>G-d will provide.<BR/>etc...<BR/><BR/>The girl's father says: I like him, he doesn't even know me, but he already thinks I'm G-d!<BR/>-<BR/><BR/>You can't get something from nothing. Everything you take comes from somewhere. Financial aid in dayschools is intended to be the last resort of people who have fallen on hard times, not a way of life for those who aren't good at math.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27151843806405328702008-09-23T01:07:00.000-04:002008-09-23T01:07:00.000-04:00We can do the same math with 30 children per class...We can do the same math with 30 children per classroom.<BR/><BR/>We'll drop it to $6,000 per child actual costs, for $180,000 per classroom.<BR/><BR/>We'll continue with our assumptions on the family: 2 children if they are concerned about finances, 5 if they are not. We'll also continue the assumption that a family with 5 children can still afford the same amount for tuition that they could for 2. <BR/><BR/>If all 30 children are on the discounted tuition, the revenue for the classroom is $60,000, leaving us $120,000 that needs to be raised to pay for the difference. If we assume 12 grades, that means the school is running $1.44 million in the red each year.<BR/><BR/>If half are discounted, then our revenue is $126,000 per classroom, which means those parents who are paying the full costs of their children's expenses (whether by reducing family size or being wealthy) would be shouldering another $3600 per child -- more than half the cost they were paying for their own child. Or again, we would need to have the school running almost $650,000 in the red per year.<BR/><BR/>Please note also that I used 5 children as the size for a large family. If that rises to match the family sizes in parts of the frum community, the numbers get even worse.<BR/><BR/>There is no way around the mathematics. If you are not independently wealthy, private schooling and large families simply does not mix. <BR/><BR/>Moreover, I do not find it laudable for someone to say "I want a large family, and someone else will just have to pick up the tab." That just pays for your financial irresponsibility at the expense of people who have made hard choices (including family size) to live within their means.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-12102539591876135482008-09-22T21:25:00.000-04:002008-09-22T21:25:00.000-04:00ANON:"nurses should be covered by the board of ed....ANON:<BR/><BR/>"nurses should be covered by the board of ed."<BR/><BR/>could you please clarify. i'm upset that my son's school doesn't have a nurse. how can they get one. thanks.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-26629802473931448962008-09-22T21:23:00.000-04:002008-09-22T21:23:00.000-04:00JLAN:where does the 20:1 ratio come from? when i w...JLAN:<BR/><BR/>where does the 20:1 ratio come from? when i went to flatbush (k-12), i never had less than 30 kids in my class (ok, i don't remember k). or have things changed?<BR/><BR/>and very few teachers--even APs--had phds (or have things changed)<BR/><BR/>and are you sure they pay in the range of public schools? i know that about 10 year they weren't even close (even more so after taking benefits into account)<BR/><BR/>ORA:<BR/><BR/>"The goal is to give every Jewish child a Jewish education, not to send them to the Jewish equivalent of Exeter."<BR/><BR/>i mentioned somewhere 2 things in this regard:<BR/><BR/>1) there is a vicious cycle: tuition is high so the schools feel they offer even more before parents expect something for that $, which causes higher tuition, with raises expectations, etc.<BR/><BR/>2) i've suggested that one way to lower (or at least lower the rate of increase) of MO tuition is to get back the basics of education. maybe we don't need so many extracurriculars, electives, technology, etc.<BR/><BR/>THINKING:<BR/><BR/>"In fact, all of the Rabbeim are given parsonage forms along with their W-4 at the beginning of the year."<BR/><BR/>my impression is that this isn't kosher. can any accountants out there clarify parsonage laws in this context?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53930811427355797062008-09-22T14:46:00.000-04:002008-09-22T14:46:00.000-04:00To throw some numbers in.Assume a class size of 20...To throw some numbers in.<BR/><BR/>Assume a class size of 20.<BR/><BR/>Assume a tuition cost per student of $8,000. This, for the sake of argument, meets the actual cost.<BR/><BR/>Assume 2 children per family if they are paying full price, and 5 children if they do not have to limit their family size based on finances. This assumes that they can afford $16,000 per year, regardless of family size. <BR/><BR/>With everyone paying full tuition, the revenue per classroom is $160,000. <BR/><BR/>If we assume that family size isn't being limited, we have a revenue per classroom of $64,000. <BR/><BR/>Where does the nearly $100,000 per classroom revenue shortfall come from?<BR/><BR/>Let us assume that only half of the classroom is filled with tuition waiver students. That means that our revenue is $112,000, leaving another $48,000 to be raised (or an extra $4800 per full price student in the classroom). <BR/><BR/>The math just doesn't work out for large families and widespread private schooling.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-21884681162156566612008-09-22T09:41:00.000-04:002008-09-22T09:41:00.000-04:00There is going to be a faculty to student ratio we...<I>There is going to be a faculty to student ratio well under 20:1, </I><BR/><BR/>The faculty to student ratio is most certainly a part of why schools cost so much. In our local school, you can have a class period with as few as 5 students, rarely will a class ever have 20 students. <BR/><BR/>Compare this to my Public High School where my smallest class had just around 20 students and my largest about 100. I do believe there were some very small classes (Journalism, French/Spanish/German Five, Advanced Auto Mechanics), but these were really exceptions.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53671838636420153742008-09-21T16:30:00.000-04:002008-09-21T16:30:00.000-04:00jlan--The goal is to give every Jewish child a Jew...jlan--<BR/>The goal is to give every Jewish child a Jewish education, not to send them to the Jewish equivalent of Exeter. If parents want to send their kids to prep school, that's their choice, but it's not part of the whole "tuition crisis" debate. Unless every MO school available is trying to be a jewish prep school, in which case, that's a shame.<BR/><BR/>There is absolutely no reason a high school student needs a teacher with a PhD. None. And I took AP classes.<BR/>For goodness sakes, if they get into the Ivies they'll have plenty of teachers there who don't have PhDs.<BR/><BR/>Again, if the parents want that, fine, good for them. But that's their own meshugas, and they should pay for it. Honestly, if there was going to be a fund paying out a set amount to each Jewish kid for school costs, I wouldn't want any of it going to someone attending a school like the one you describe, let alone enough to cover the cost of tuition there (which I assume is obscene).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16835178920014912792008-09-21T16:12:00.000-04:002008-09-21T16:12:00.000-04:00"2)Since when do high school students need to be t..."2)Since when do high school students need to be taught by PhD's?? I have never heard of such a thing! I am trying to figure out what I missed out on in my high school education by not having a PhD for a teacher. If this is what the parent body wants then fine, but if this is what the school is deciding on their own, someone needs to step in."<BR/><BR/>AP teachers, amongst other people (AP courses are, in theory, college level, even if they often aren't taught that way). These are schools where if 20% of the graduating classes don't get in to Ivy League schools, it's a lousy year. The parents want PhDs for teachers for the strong students and people around for one on one work at least one period per day for the weakest students.<BR/><BR/>I'm just trying to say that while the suggestions above are an interesting starting point, to suggest that they would cover every school's tuition completely is silly. If you want to discuss a system wherein everyone in the Orthodox community pays in, fine, but be aware that it would give a set amount out per child, rather than covering the full tuitions at various schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57859141156411189312008-09-21T15:28:00.000-04:002008-09-21T15:28:00.000-04:00Jlan-2 comments on your numbers. 1) Psychologists,...Jlan-<BR/><BR/>2 comments on your numbers. <BR/>1) Psychologists, social workers and nurses should be covered by the board of ed. If schools are paying for it themselves they shouldn't be, they are entitled to it.<BR/>2)Since when do high school students need to be taught by PhD's?? I have never heard of such a thing! I am trying to figure out what I missed out on in my high school education by not having a PhD for a teacher. If this is what the parent body wants then fine, but if this is what the school is deciding on their own, someone needs to step in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-74024548422568492392008-09-21T13:32:00.000-04:002008-09-21T13:32:00.000-04:00I haven't bothered commenting on the numbers that ...I haven't bothered commenting on the numbers that I keep seeing in here yet, but it should be mentioned that anyone including MO high schools in this discussion has seriously underestimated costs, at least in the NY area.<BR/><BR/>Reasons:<BR/>1) Let's say that we teach the following subjects: English, History, Math, Science, Foreign Language (besides Hebrew), Ivrit, Tanach, Gemara, Machshava/current events, PE, and Art (of some sort). There is going to be a faculty to student ratio well under 20:1, even if some of those classes meet only a few times per week, and this does not include administrators, psychologist, nurse, and support staff (i.e. staff for children with special needs).<BR/><BR/>2) For those who are suggesting $50,000 (including benefits and employer-paid taxes) for full time teachers, you're undercounting by a significant margin, at least for SAR, Ramaz, etc. That doesn't even cover the starting salary for a full time high school teacher at either of those schools, let alone those with experience, benefits, taxes, coaching and other extracurricular staffing, etc. Keep in mind: MO high schools (the elementary/middle schools not as much) are trying to pay around the same as the local public schools, plus some form of tuition break (Ramaz and SAR are both at 50%). NYC public school salaries start around $50,000 these days, and very few of the teachers at the top MO high schools have only a bachelor's degree, so they start their salaries even higher (I teach at one of them, and I feel underqualified since I only have one Masters and it's in a teaching field- I lack a Masters in my subject matter, a second Masters, and a PhD, all of which are common).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60753825509992938792008-09-21T08:23:00.000-04:002008-09-21T08:23:00.000-04:00I'd rather pay the extra thousand or two so your k...I'd rather pay the extra thousand or two so your kids don't wind up in Public School, Mark. I know many Yeshiva parents who would say the same. Those of you that don't want to do that, then go ahead. Like I said before, I've been the recipient of tuition committee help and it's the way our communities work. I'm proud of that. Whether the math works in the end is an issue that needs to be addressed, but in the meantime, Public School is not a choice for us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-65381311003505482122008-09-21T08:21:00.000-04:002008-09-21T08:21:00.000-04:00disagree - I went to public school for grades 1-7....disagree - I went to public school for grades 1-7. Not the end of the world.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-6957248323315391472008-09-21T08:20:00.000-04:002008-09-21T08:20:00.000-04:00Mark, I think if you are going to choose, you shou...Mark, I think if you are going to choose, you should choose to have more kids and prostrate yourself before the tuition committee. You have to get off that ridiculous Public School warpath. It's a road to nowhere. For G-d's Sake!!!!! You are driving me nuts with it, already.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-30733785390228903532008-09-21T01:02:00.000-04:002008-09-21T01:02:00.000-04:00Anonymous September 17, 2008 11:21 AMAnother concl...<I>Anonymous September 17, 2008 11:21 AM<BR/><BR/>Another conclusion I draw is that it is in some peoples mind better NOT to have a Jewish child than have that child and send them to public school or another alternative. And we talk about bitochon?<BR/><BR/>Have we all lost our collective minds?</I><BR/><BR/>I think I have to agree with this. At least somewhat. I think it is better to have more Jewish children and send them to public school than to have fewer Jewish children and send them to Yeshiva. Even with the risk that some percentage of them will end up going off the derech.<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-82730331529009967722008-09-18T21:03:00.000-04:002008-09-18T21:03:00.000-04:00In addition to the problem of the upper class and ...In addition to the problem of the upper class and middle class limiting their family size and struggling to pay full tuition to subsidize the ones with many children - they are also subsidizing those that work off the books or have businesses that write everything off <BR/><BR/>I brought this topic up with the local MO yeshiva and they said look those who work on the books pay taxes and tuition - thats just the way it isAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80537697089744496312008-09-18T13:33:00.000-04:002008-09-18T13:33:00.000-04:00By the way - to the original auther - you seem to ...By the way - to the original auther - you seem to know more than most about The YWN. How do you know about consequences they may have faced? They seem to lack a lot of integrity (e.g., allowing lashon hara about YU rashei yeshiva while covering up other things.) I have my suspicions that they are not actually Orthodox but are just in it for the ad revenue. Any comments?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46677748793971165872008-09-18T10:38:00.000-04:002008-09-18T10:38:00.000-04:00LOZ - I claimed parsonage on my tax returns for 6 ...LOZ - I claimed parsonage on my tax returns for 6 years and with 2 different yeshivos. In fact, all of the Rabbeim are given parsonage forms along with their W-4 at the beginning of the year.<BR/>An your point about corp day care is exactly my point, no one gets free tuition or daycare! Regardless of your pay grade. Rabbeim should have to pay at least the minimum amount it costs to educate a child unless it can be proven that they make less than other parents.<BR/><BR/>Anon- I am not sure what a "kiruv rabbi" is, but I believe you must be paid by a congregation or religious institution to have parsonage deducted.<BR/><BR/>To all the points about donations, relying on donations is what has gotten us into this pickle. And that is where the stress on young couples is coming from. Couples who are now entering their first children into the schools and had heard all a long that they would be able to negotiate or get reduced tuition based on their income are being told that's not the case. With less money coming into the schools, schools are providing less scholarship money and even raising tuition on a yearly basis. Now couples have to reconsider everything including family size and that is where the tremendous emotional stress is coming from, as well as shalom bayis issues.<BR/><BR/>What I love about this blog is how frank it is about what things actually cost. Young people need to know to properly plan their education, job selection, community etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-24938544041171385472008-09-18T09:11:00.000-04:002008-09-18T09:11:00.000-04:00THINKING:"The Jewish community does not require ce...THINKING:<BR/><BR/>"The Jewish community does not require certain professional personnel who will never earn more than a token salary"<BR/><BR/>shochatim, mashgichim, social workers, assistant teachers, low-level employees for the non-profits, etc.<BR/><BR/>re. how much a rebbe gets paid:<BR/><BR/>1) i also highly doubt that a rebbe can claim parsonage<BR/>2) which schools pay a half-day rebbe 50k base salary (and you say that is the low end)?<BR/>3) benefits are pathetic<BR/><BR/>(i do think that the light schedule is a big perk that people fail to take into account.)<BR/><BR/>"Many companies have childcare programs"<BR/><BR/>maybe a *few* companies have a type of daycare program but that is it. usually, however, it is lightly subsidized day care (if it is actually available altogether). others offer emergency day care for a certain number of days a year. most.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39709184405661006762008-09-18T08:57:00.000-04:002008-09-18T08:57:00.000-04:00Donation is the buzz word. A little over a half ho...Donation is the buzz word. A little over a half hour ago, hamercaz.com posted a concern for a number of Jewish charities that the collapse of Lehman brothers will put a clamp on the end of year fund-raising. Because of less taxable revenue, the state of NY will also have to cut back. Save your money folks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51163382563971742302008-09-18T08:38:00.000-04:002008-09-18T08:38:00.000-04:00"Are you suggesting that together we have donated ..."Are you suggesting that together we have donated 1.6B dollars to schools?"<BR/><BR/>I haven't checked you math, but you mentioned that for the cost of 3-4 kiddushes we could support the shortfall. . . or at least that is how I'm reading. <BR/><BR/>I know we have donated that amount in the past, but now that we pay tuition, well, there isn't anything left to donate.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.com