tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post7776249858063153454..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72443439270008466002009-06-26T09:59:27.032-04:002009-06-26T09:59:27.032-04:00I say parents refusing (unable) to pay IS finding ...I say parents refusing (unable) to pay IS finding a substitute.<br /><br />Instead of a Day School education at $12k, they'll take one at $6k or $0, and the school has to decide if it's worth it.<br /><br />If I go to a car dealership and the sticker says $30k, and I pay $22k, that's getting the price down... doesn't matter that the MSRP still says $30k, I paid $22k.<br /><br />A published price, either sticker or posted tuition, is an offer to sell a good or service at that price. There is no reason not to make a counter offer, and if they take it, great, not your problem.<br /><br />Reality is setting in, people are unwilling/unable to pay the previous price. The schools will either take less, a defacto price decrease, or close up shop and the customers will find another vendor.<br /><br />Given the glut of Kollel men and their wives, I don't see a shortage of Judaic instructors. As family support dries up, there should be plenty of tutors available for those choosing public school.<br /><br />The market is working quite fine. The laws of supply and demand, much like the laws of physics and other thinks that govern the universe, are given by Hashem. The Hashkafa of "hide the frummies from the world" is given by men. Which do you think will hold?Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-54520944083409564662009-06-25T17:22:36.448-04:002009-06-25T17:22:36.448-04:00"Which means that reality is setting in - and..."Which means that reality is setting in - and the market is having an effect on salaries (gee, just like the real world!)."<br /><br />Not really. It's universes away from a real competitive market. It's not the consumers not purchasing or finding a substitue it's that some are simply unable to pay full tuition and donations are drying up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-61679638575693475252009-06-25T11:06:28.820-04:002009-06-25T11:06:28.820-04:00SephardiLady - I think these posts are outdated. F...SephardiLady - I think these posts are outdated. From what I hear, many schools are firing a lot of teachers and administrators, and hiring others at half the salary - when they hire at all. Which means that reality is setting in - and the market is having an effect on salaries (gee, just like the real world!).westbankmamahttp://westbankmama.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-53556035243514958492009-06-24T17:20:41.578-04:002009-06-24T17:20:41.578-04:00Updated (and one addition, see 2a below) questions...Updated (and one addition, see 2a below) questions -<br /><br />1. Of the $10,000,000 in salary, how much is for teachers and how much is for administration, support, and other non-teacher staff?<br /><br />2. Do administrators get free tuition for their children? How much does this amount to?<br /><br />2a. Do local Rabbeim get free tuition for their children? Which Rabbeim are eligible for this benefit and why?<br /><br />3. Why is there an across the board 3% increase in a year without inflation, and in a year in which most people are seeing no increases, and some are seeing decreases? (In my case, no raises, no bonuses, and a severely reduced and less flexible vacation/sick policy)<br /><br />4. Are new contracts being signed with administrators? Are they longer than 1 year in length? (This amounts to a future obligation without necessarily having the means to pay for it. Not a good thing to do in a deep recession).<br /><br />5. How much of their budget is spent on "nice to have's" rather than "need to have's"? Do they have a fancy gym? Do they have fancy screens connected to fancy computers in every classroom, that requires an almost full-time IT person to be on staff?<br /><br />6. Do they allow their spending to be "dictated" by board members that are [usually] very wealthy, or do they also have the moderating voices of regular, average earning, baalei/baalot batim on the board as well?<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-5971775404761298122009-06-24T13:05:07.440-04:002009-06-24T13:05:07.440-04:00Ezzie,
Regarding the 3% increase -- all rent-stab...Ezzie,<br /><br />Regarding the 3% increase -- all rent-stabilized apartment rents are about to increase 3% (6% if the lease is for two years) thanks to the decision by the government agency that decides such things yesterday. So yes, 3% is a minimum raise people would expect to see.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-3700899373542145082009-06-23T17:44:40.796-04:002009-06-23T17:44:40.796-04:00Apparently R. Teitz posted his comments (that were...Apparently R. Teitz posted his comments (that were excerpted in this post) on a message board a few months ago.<br /><br />Would it be chutzhpahdik for me to post my questions there?<br /><br />Would it be chutzpahdik for me to email my questions to him since he isn't likely to see them on the old thread from a few months ago?<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-71479720899112024582009-06-23T16:47:29.528-04:002009-06-23T16:47:29.528-04:00Anon426,
Thank you for your kind comments. Not t...Anon426,<br /><br />Thank you for your kind comments. Not to give too much away, but I go to law school at night while working full-time during the day.<br /><br />You may be interested in a guest post I wrote over at DovBear's site:<br /><br />http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2009/06/is-yeshiva-worth-it.html<br /><br />It deals with some of the non-Orthonomic aspects of whether yeshiva tuition is worth it and will give some more insight into my perspective. Good luck with everything.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70516372086911936432009-06-23T15:18:56.392-04:002009-06-23T15:18:56.392-04:00I just want to say how gratified by everyone's...I just want to say how gratified by everyone's responses to my recent comment.<br /><br />JS you are particularly insightful and articulate. Not just in this discussion, BTW, but in other's as well. What do you do for a living? You really hit the nail on the head when you say that "Judaism has become a license to avoid one's wife and children." There was a time when my husband never made it to shacharis EXCEPT when we were going on a family outing and then we all had to wait for him. Dinner at certain times of the year<br />is particularly exasperating because invariably it's going on the table just in time for mincha/maariv.<br /><br />There is an organization I know of whose motto is (or was?) learn how to learn so you can learn with your child. Of course, who was home learning with the kids?! Not the guy at the shiur!<br /><br /><i>JS: Is it worth killing yourself and slowly destroying your family so that your kids know a few rashis? <br />It is worth having kids who can tell a d'var torah at the expense of a divorce or constant family fighting?</i><br /><br />Not to me it isn't. I voiced some of these thoughts to my husband just a couple of days ago. I expect<br />it to continue when we get our tuition assistance letter from the school. :-(Anon426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-5673388310443432742009-06-23T08:29:38.621-04:002009-06-23T08:29:38.621-04:00JS - Excellent points. These issues are rarely di...JS - Excellent points. These issues are rarely discussed by schools and community leaders. Some people are so worried about keeping children (and sometimes men) insulated from the secular world and "bad" influences that they keep them programmed 24 hours a day. In so doing, they keep them insulated from their own families.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40479756872059699962009-06-22T23:03:19.908-04:002009-06-22T23:03:19.908-04:00Yet another reason why Judaism and frumkeit need t...Yet another reason why Judaism and frumkeit need to be redefined. It is NOT all about learning and shiurim. This ridiculous over-emphasis with ALWAYS having to daven with a minyan (as if davening alone quickly is assur), always having to run to a shiur (as if one MUST learn every single day or as if helping kids out with chumash homework isn't really learning) - it's all just out of control.<br /><br />Judaism has become a license to avoid one's wife and children. And it's compounded by yeshivas that take our kids away from us for such long hours, some yeshivas on Sundays as well, and rabbis that push sleepaway camp so we can't even see them when they're off. It's further compounded by women being forced to work and be away from their families just to pay for tuition while still being expected to fulfill their "traditional" role.<br /><br />Their are subtle signs of it everywhere - shuls are now programming meccas scheduling shiurim every single night to keep men out of the house even longer. Shiurim continue on Shabbos from maybe 2 hours after lunch should end to Mincha, so the one day off that is supposed to be for family is spent away from family. Youth groups in the shul keep kids away from parents long past the age that they need to be babysat. And other organizations like NCSY drag kids away for events and shabbatons frequently.<br /><br />And of course when a husband and wife are finally together, they can finally stress out and argue in front of the kids they never get to see about finances and how money is tight and debt is rising because of tuition.<br /><br />One really needs to question whether this new frumkeit is the right direction for our community.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81223476582068267952009-06-22T22:54:30.298-04:002009-06-22T22:54:30.298-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86647766396124264802009-06-22T21:14:02.253-04:002009-06-22T21:14:02.253-04:00"my husband barely contributes to child reari..."my husband barely contributes to child rearing and household management"<br /><br />We expect husbands to go to three minyans a day, plus a daf yomi shiur, plus attend evening shiurim, plus serve on shul boards....is it any wonder husbands don't have time for their families? <br /><br />I'm keeping up with Daf Yomi, but I had to give up my shiur and do it on my own.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10407873510833924702009-06-22T18:18:42.741-04:002009-06-22T18:18:42.741-04:00@Mark,
On the surface, sure, being a Rabbi is a g...@Mark,<br /><br />On the surface, sure, being a Rabbi is a great gig, and every Rabbi I've ever spoken to has loved certain aspects of it - the learning, the schedule, the commute. None have mentioned money, but our shul's rabbi makes more money than I do simply in salary, and then he makes more by teaching part time. His wife stays at home with the children. She can do that because he also has parsonage and gets free tuition (at least for one or two of the kids in the school he teaches at). And yet, he works incredibly hard, he's on call 24x7, so is his wife, and, believe me, they earn every cent. My cousin was a pulpit rabbi (and also taught on the side, as did his wife) before making aliya. We spent a Shabbos with him once -- he couldn't come to us, because he was tied to his shul -- and came away exhausted just thinking about their lifestyle. My grandfather was a pulpit rabbi for 50 years, and when he discovered that my cousin was following in his footsteps he wasn't proud - he begged my cousin to reconsider.<br />Do our Rabbinim have the same stresses that we do? No. They have different ones. Do they understand the way we live? Not by living the way the baal habaatim do - though they do an awful lot of marriage counseling, so they have a window into what's going on. Plus, any time they give a drasha that shows they're even the tiniest bit out of step with reality, the baal habaatim let them have it.Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37363034571522127792009-06-22T18:07:43.750-04:002009-06-22T18:07:43.750-04:00It sometimes pays to have friends in high/low plac...It sometimes pays to have friends in high/low places. Although they requested strict anonymity, the across the board response to "some teachers are getting $100K a year" was incredulity followed by laughter. Who did I ask? Teachers in the day school system, both in Jersey and in NY.<br /><br />One teacher put it this way: "even if they add into the figure what they have to pay in social security and taxes and their portion of the health insurance, even if you round up the number, I don't come near that figure." Yet another teacher said this: "there is no single teacher in the secular studies department who is making that kind of salary. If there were, that's the kind of secret that couldn't be kept, we'd all know and you bet there would have been screaming." Still another teacher said: "my specialty is science and I know that I am paid somewhat more then the teachers who are in most other subject areas. But 100K? I wish!"<br /><br />I am NOT accusing R' Teitz of lying outright, but there are lies of commission and lies of omission. What has been omitted is any breakdown of what is meant by staff/faculty salaries. As was mentioned above, it is quite possible that those salaries represent administration, not just teachers. What are rebbis being paid? What are third grade teachers being paid?<br /><br />Let me end with this. An acquaintance, having put in his required years in the NYC public school system for the highest tier pension, retired but was too young to do nothing. He took a job teaching in a Jersey day school high school. I mentioned the 100K to him and his first response was "what have you been drinking?!" <br /><br />Yet again a lack of transparency, a lack of putting the numbers out where they can be seen--all the numbers--has skewed a serious discussion.ProfKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17954446826821665314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-47178496289796980332009-06-22T16:09:09.211-04:002009-06-22T16:09:09.211-04:00JS - I really feel for you. I don't think yesh...<i>JS - I really feel for you. I don't think yeshivas understand what the situation at home is really like.</i><br /><br />They have no idea ... whatsoever. School finishes at 3:30 or so, and by 4 or 4:30, they all go home. They (all of the administrators and most of the teachers) usually don't have a long commute because they live near the school and most community schools are pretty close to the community. They are also off every erev chag and every chag and never have to juggle vacation days to be a frum Jew.<br /><br />They really have no idea. The same goes for the Rabbanim of our communities who live a few hundred feet from the shul, their workplace. Though the Rabbanim sometimes have a spike in work if there are lots of funerals or a kashrut crisis one week, but most of the time, they have it good. Really good. And that's why they have no idea how we, the baalei batim, live.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-43067473410577406442009-06-22T14:29:55.316-04:002009-06-22T14:29:55.316-04:00Anon426,
I really feel for you. I don't thin...Anon426,<br /><br />I really feel for you. I don't think yeshivas understand what the situation at home is really like.<br /><br />I think we need to seriously reexamine what it means to be Jewish or frum. Jewishness goes far beyond learning and sitting in shul for a drasha. It even goes far beyond being able to say kiddush properly in front of one's Shabbos guests - we have family friends who became religious and the husband can barely say kiddush properly as his Hebrew is incredibly limited. Is he or his family less Jewish?<br /><br />Is it worth killing yourself and slowly destroying your family so that your kids know a few rashis? It is worth having kids who can tell a d'var torah at the expense of a divorce or constant family fighting?<br /><br />I know I'm minimizing, but seriously is it worth it? What exactly are we paying for?JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-61644406521765729152009-06-22T13:44:21.047-04:002009-06-22T13:44:21.047-04:00I think I have said this already -- I've certa...I think I have said this already -- I've certainly thought it over and over. The expense of putting kids through day school is more than just not having enough money for vacations. Or even not having enough money to live. It really aggravates me to see that the expectation from the schools and other venues is that both parents will be "gainfully employed".<br /><br />There is a cost associated with that that gets very short shrift.<br /><br />For both parents to be gainfully employed to the point where it is financially worth it takes quite a toll on the family. Especially the wife. Excuse me in advance to those husbands who share equally in household duties -- my husband does not and I suspect that is the norm. Especially when you are also expected to have no household help. Hello!? I work 35 hours a week, my husband barely contributes to child rearing and household management. I take out the trash. I get the cars fixed. I do the yard work. And the dishes. And the laundry. And put the kids to bed by myself every night. And put the dog out morning and night. I am sick of it already. My kids are on the young side (10, 8, and 5). They help some, but they get home late have homework to do and need to unwind also.<br /><br />I get way too little sleep and few breaks. I yell at my kids way too much. One reason my husband participates so little is because he is exhausted all the time. He has chronic insomnia partly because he is so stressed out. Is there a vacation on our horizon? Not a chance. Is there even a TAKE-OUT PIZZA on our horizon???? No way.<br /><br />I would have a far healthier JEWISH household without the financial stress which results in my having to be away from home 8 hours/day. My husband and I are not very learned. My kids would certainly be less learned. But my Jewish family would be much healthier if both parents did not have to work full-time.Anon426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-21179970932857626442009-06-22T12:07:03.165-04:002009-06-22T12:07:03.165-04:00It seems like the reason for R' Teit's ina...It seems like the reason for R' Teit's inaction is the questions that inevitably arise. Who to cut? What to cut? When to cut? Who to raise? Who to pay?<br /><br />So like many jewish institutions JEC will do nothing because they don't know the right answer! Simple solution: let someone else decide for you. Have an independant audit or a management consultant help you make the tough decisions.<br /><br />It's what great organizations do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-45004117118552893612009-06-22T11:14:28.530-04:002009-06-22T11:14:28.530-04:00Some questions (that will not be answered):
1. Of...Some questions (that will not be answered):<br /><br />1. Of the $10,000,000 in salary, how much is for teachers and how much is for administration, support, and other non-teacher staff?<br /><br />2. Do administrators get free tuition for their children? How much does this amount to?<br /><br />3. Why is there an across the board 3% increase in a year without inflation, and in a year in which most people are seeing no increases, and some are seeing decreases? (In my case, no raises, no bonuses, and a severely reduced and less flexible vacation/sick policy)<br /><br />4. Are new contracts being signed with administrators? Are they longer than 1 year in length? (This amounts to a future obligation without necessarily having the means to pay for it. Not a good thing to do in a deep recession).<br /><br />5. How much of their budget is spent on "nice to have's" rather than "need to have's"? Do they have a fancy gym? Do they have fancy screens connected to fancy computers in every classroom, that requires an almost full-time IT person to be on staff?<br /><br />6. Do they allow their spending to be "dictated" by board members that are [usually] very wealthy, or do they also have the moderating voices of regular, average earning, baalei/baalot batim on the board as well?<br /><br />Maybe more later.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-13318783546055204122009-06-22T11:03:14.052-04:002009-06-22T11:03:14.052-04:00"Average teacher pay in even the best paying ..."Average teacher pay in even the best paying school districts are much lower."<br /><br />Here is the salary scale for teachers in New York City Public Schools:<br /><br /><br />http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/CD18AE57-CC05-4016-8BC8-B2BACFC82122/38101/2008SalarySchedule.pdf<br /><br />Note that the top base salary, for a teacher with a masters degree + 30 additional credits, is $100,049 after 22 years of experience.<br /><br />Suburban school systems pay more. <br /><br />The problem is that you are trying to attract the best and the brightest graduates to go into teaching, with a starting salary of $45,530 in New York City. In the past, it has been very easy for new graduates to make 50% more than that in the financial services industry.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51709695408166258472009-06-22T10:50:57.487-04:002009-06-22T10:50:57.487-04:00"Per student cost: approx. $13,333."
By..."Per student cost: approx. $13,333."<br /><br />By comparison, the per student cost at Bronx High School of Science is $12,248:<br /><br />http://schools.nyc.gov/Common/Templates/MainTemplate/CommonMainTemplate.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b9EFE0C33-7D89-45E1-9283-40A289A6A437%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fSchoolPortals%2f10%2fX445%2fAboutUs%2fStatistics%2fexpenditures%2<br />ehtm&NRCACHEHINT=Guest<br /><br />The cost efficiency of Bronx Science probably comes from the fact that it has between 2,600 and 2,800 students, none of them requiring special education services. The average class size ranges from 28 to 34.<br /><br />"I'm a bit confused why a potential across-the-board raise is being discussed while the average parental income is falling"<br /><br />Because if Rabbi Teitz doesn't pay competitively, the best teachers will find other jobs. <br /><br />"But if pay is being set by an employee's needs, and in some Jewish organizations I believe it is"<br /><br />In many cases, if you set pay based on perceived need of the employee rather than the job, you've violated either the Civil Rights Act or the Equal Pay Act.<br /><br />'Do we go to a system where we declare "franchise" teachers and any school poaching one has to pay a penalty or open its protected teachers to being approached by other schools in return? '<br /><br />Doing this would probably violate antitrust laws. <br /><br />"I was struck that a thirty-something applicant, without any experience as a principal, only some limited work as an assistant principal, expected to earn over $175,000 in salary and benefits."<br /><br />$154,296 is the maximum salay for a high school principal in the New York City public schools:<br /><br />http://www.csa-nyc.org/ps/pscontract.php<br /><br />" A well managed endowment with $100 million in it will spin off between $5 million to $7 million annually. "<br /><br />The total cost of Jewish education in America is around $2 billion annually. To generate that via an endowment would require a principle of $28 billion to $40 billion. Not even Bill Gates has that kind of money.Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-88483889039011595172009-06-22T10:50:20.729-04:002009-06-22T10:50:20.729-04:00I'm pleased to see that R. Teitz understands t...I'm pleased to see that R. Teitz understands the world in which his parental body lives - it's not always clear that our Rabbinate does. <br /><br />The solution is obviously to cut staff, but, as an insider, R. Teitz doesn't have the will to do it (justified by sound educational reasons). By refusing to cut staff costs, R. Teitz is acting as if this is a storm that will blow over, but he admits that it's a long term structural problem. This happens a lot in corporations when shareholders -- or a bankruptcy judge -- kick out non-performing management. Sometimes only outsiders can make the necessary hard changes to keep a company going. Well, that's going to happen here, too if money doesn't magically appear in the next budget cycle for our schools (and if the money does appear next year, it will happen the year after that). I'm sure that there are others, but the only school I know of that is actively cutting staff to keep tuition flat is RYNJ.Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-30039562776422267482009-06-22T04:40:41.394-04:002009-06-22T04:40:41.394-04:00Did you ask R' Teitz's permission to copy,...Did you ask R' Teitz's permission to copy, paste and comment? <br /><br />If not, I think that's a bit rude. If so, I'd like to see his response to your comments.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40253207791964342102009-06-21T23:20:29.447-04:002009-06-21T23:20:29.447-04:00Do many schools take advantage of their profession...Do many schools take advantage of their professional parent resources? How many schools take advantage of the finance controllers, the technology gurus, management and leadership consultants in their midst, to name but a few? If we could find a way to provide prioritized and discrete projects to such individuals -- who are chomping at the bit to help -- then we would greatly improve our schools as well as potentially flatline costs.<br /><br />Administrators need to open their minds and be willing to think in terms of using parents, as well as be confident enough to open the books/other data of the school so these selected parents may truly help them. I am a financial controller with a background in process improvement, decision analysis, and multi-million dollar project management. Many fellow community members are sys admins, consultants, investment bankers, private equity associates, lawyers, salesmen/marketers, etc... B"H we are a talented group.<br /><br />On the other hand, the parents need to expect less control than they may have at work (i.e. high level project managers), and need to earn the respect of school administrators to take on useful roles.<br /><br />Together, we can make a difference, be engaged from both sides, and work towards positive solutions that will improve our children's educations.<br /><br />A JEC ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-56860611904512673562009-06-21T23:18:58.491-04:002009-06-21T23:18:58.491-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com