tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post7800162844674474673..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Destructive to Wealth: Confused as to Your Money Starts and EndsOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60002956316042124022010-09-29T11:55:39.893-04:002010-09-29T11:55:39.893-04:00Anon 5:42 - nothing wrong with supporting Kollel i...Anon 5:42 - nothing wrong with supporting Kollel if its voluntary. If its a form of blackmail or extortion to "marry off" a daughter, then there are serious problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-66437806805518324242010-09-29T11:39:34.465-04:002010-09-29T11:39:34.465-04:00I am not Orthodox but I worked for 5 years at a Ye...I am not Orthodox but I worked for 5 years at a Yeshiva where I got to know many of the families very well. My observation is that many of the people I came in contact with were extremely narccisistic and that Orthodox culture tends to reinforce such behavior by constantly emphasizing the supposed superiority of observant Jews. This of course did not apply to every single person, but there was a definite pattern. I suppect that this might stem from cognitive dissonance, as you sacrifice a lot to live the Orthodox lifestyle. A second observation was that many of those I came to know were not even true believers but just going through the motions so that they would fit in socially.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-79453567358709676542010-09-28T21:41:11.511-04:002010-09-28T21:41:11.511-04:00To the True Macher:
If there was some objective ...To the True Macher:<br /><br />If there was some objective vetting process to determine the potential "scholars" you might have a point. But the high percentage of guys going into Kollel today is more a function of social norms and peer pressure than Talmudic acumen. They will ultimately have the worst of both worlds. Poverty and underachievement in learning, when they cannot cut it/and or make the necessary sacrifices. As such, I ain't investing in those futures.Dr. Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14098268752668730381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57851331748363618952010-09-28T17:42:52.435-04:002010-09-28T17:42:52.435-04:00So what's wrong with supporting the Kollel? Do...So what's wrong with supporting the Kollel? Does not the giver also benefit from the honor of supporting a scholar? There is no better investment than ensuring that the next generation of scholars can continue their holy work without interuption.<br />A True MacherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-6496185658150601272010-09-28T14:21:40.449-04:002010-09-28T14:21:40.449-04:00There is no way for a girl to get married in the f...There is no way for a girl to get married in the frum world without a dowry. In other words, there are fewer good boys than good girls, it's a market that favors boys, so the parents of boys require dowries. This is not called a dowry - it is called support. As in "We're asking for five years." Or "We're looking for long term support." The engagement and chasanah gifts are only part of the obligation. The real obligation is the agreement to support the husband in kollel for a specified number of years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40643977706950153702010-09-28T08:55:34.744-04:002010-09-28T08:55:34.744-04:00“Dr. Respler suggests potentially bringing in a Ra...“Dr. Respler suggests potentially bringing in a Rav who can explain what responsibilities belong with whom.”<br /><br />The entire premise of Dr. Yael and her ilk is predicated on the norms for “support” or responsibilities being based on some rule book or something in Shulchan Aruch that a Rav can weigh in on. Everyone knows what I am talking about. It’s the “that’s the way it is done” people who are following some unwritten code (heck, by now someone probably has had the chutzpa to put it into print and sell it). We all have heard about the various “gifts” that need to be given to the chosen and to the kallah at defined points in their relationship (e.g., the bracelets, the watch, the pearls, the sheitels, etc.) The baseline should be that if someone wants to get married, he/shewill they live financially independently (no support, no monthly checks, etc.). If they cannot do this, then they are not ready to get married, despite the date on their birth certificate telling them otherwise. Sure, if there is a shortfall and the couple is just starting out, and parents are in a position to assist, then that is understandable. But, somewhere along the line, the concept of “financial independence” has fallen out of favor in the Yeshivish community and now even has a “goyishe tam” to it. This posture is unprecedented in Jewish history.<br /><br />The context of entitlement today is so off-base it’s ridiculous. What is more absurd is when the system and the parents buy into this and promote and enable this culture. After all, no parent wants to have to admit at the weekly Kiddush that his 21 year old daughter is still single. That’s just one cart that is driving the horse.<br /><br />One issue with the “machers’ is that they are beholden to the system that made them into machers and keeps them as machers through honor and flattery. Guys like this love to hear that they are “Baalei Tzedaka” and “Machzik Torah”. As such, they are in too deep and are powerless to buck the very system which energizes them.<br /><br />To Anonymous at 8:28 AM on 9/21: In fairness to the letter writer, please note that letters to the Editor and Columnists typically go through a dose of editing, some more and some less. In almost all cases in which the letters are written by the unnamed, it is the Editor or columnist who is selecting something either fitting or catchy to label the writer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-79107907718533400722010-09-27T16:46:34.179-04:002010-09-27T16:46:34.179-04:00Thanks for the clarification. Sorry to hear that A...Thanks for the clarification. Sorry to hear that Anon 2:52 - both about your layoff and the unfortunate statements you have to deal with as a result.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39133560731258015812010-09-27T14:52:57.687-04:002010-09-27T14:52:57.687-04:00It was indeed $3600.00. The Rabbi actually asked i...It was indeed $3600.00. The Rabbi actually asked if I had any friends who would be able to give instead of me and later told a mutual friend of ours about my "dire" situation out of "concern" for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-78514960956593778202010-09-26T20:46:31.139-04:002010-09-26T20:46:31.139-04:00Did I read that right - $3600 for a raffle ticket...Did I read that right - $3600 for a raffle ticket? I hope there is a decible point missing somewhere and that there are two zeros after it. A raffle ticket isn't even a deductible charitable donation. And he tried to make some one laid off feel guilty for not giving to a camp, something that usually is a luxury with some small exceptions like disabled or sick kids.<br />In defense of chabad rabbis, a local chabad rabbi I support gave me no pushback when I told him I couldn't give as much as he asked because I was prioritizing local food banks and homelessness programs since no one can get themselves and their families on their feet when they are hungry and/or homeless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36711497691841988302010-09-26T20:24:29.826-04:002010-09-26T20:24:29.826-04:00Anon 6:20,
He is in the real world. You were his...Anon 6:20,<br /><br />He is in the real world. You were his mark, he sucked you dry. He sees that your luck has run out and there is nothing more, so he tries to squeeze one last donation out. Maybe it works 1 out of 5 times, might as well try.<br /><br />No need for him to worry, you're a dead end, on to the next mark.<br /><br />Sorry, these roving bands of fund raisers follow the same model as con men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1646349442434936342010-09-26T18:20:57.769-04:002010-09-26T18:20:57.769-04:00A local Lubavitch Rabbi recently made me feel terr...A local Lubavitch Rabbi recently made me feel terrible that I was not able to buy a $3600 raffel ticket to support a camp in Michigan. I was laid off last year and had previously been very generous supporter of his. He actually had the chutzpah to suggest that perhaps my being laid off was somehow by fault and that I was letting down the campers by not putting by donation on my Visa card. I came to the conclusion that these guys are just out of touch with reality because they do not work in real world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1351435243640944052010-09-22T17:12:35.627-04:002010-09-22T17:12:35.627-04:00Anon 4:31 $2 million in net worth(particularly if ...Anon 4:31 $2 million in net worth(particularly if not counting a primary residence) probably would put a family in the top 5% for a couple in their mid-50's to mid-60's (peak net worth years), and would be a much higher percentile for younger people. If he not only has $2 million but also has a high income, then I disagree that your conclusion that someone with that net worth would not be very wealthy. For example someone with 2 million net worth at age 40 is already more than all set for retirement if he can live off his earned income till around age 60(including tuition and weddings) and invests conservatively. <br />Bottom line is what is wrong with us if we don't think that 2 million usually is a boat load of money, and more than many will earn in a life time. That doesn't mean it can be splurged or wasted, but we need a reality check here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29404767394805864782010-09-22T16:31:35.953-04:002010-09-22T16:31:35.953-04:00The article is too vague to be meaningful. We don...The article is too vague to be meaningful. We don't know that the "writer"* cannot afford what he's being asked for. If that's true, it's one thing. But if he can afford it easily, what's the point of being "very wealthy"** if not using the wealth to help out family?<br /><br />That's not to say that there are not bounds of chutzpah that the parents could overstep, but that's an issue of about midos and ehrlicheit, not dollars and cents. I don't know what expertise Dr. Respler has in the latter.<br /><br />* I've never known any real chassidim who write in the style of the letter. Could it have been faked to create an interesting column?<br /><br />** I'd hope "very wealthy" means a good deal more than having $2 million as another poster uses the term. If that's what he's got and has a big and young michpacha, then he really can't be paying for many extra weddings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-74459206062445945252010-09-22T14:26:12.591-04:002010-09-22T14:26:12.591-04:00If you are paying Yeshiva tuition, you are paying ...If you are paying Yeshiva tuition, you are paying the equivalent of a state college tuition every year for 12 years. When me and my siblings went to college, my parents threw a party- they paid less for college than HS. We each went to the school that gave us the largest academic scholarship.Paying Parentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50559932009873298762010-09-22T12:31:52.594-04:002010-09-22T12:31:52.594-04:00Article about the difficulty of saving for both re...Article about the difficulty of saving for both retirement and college at the same time (something it seems yeshiva tuition paying parents are doing neither of):<br /><br />http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39287925/ns/business-personal_finance/JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72188851170950691872010-09-22T10:09:43.470-04:002010-09-22T10:09:43.470-04:00Anon 22: I wouldn't pin this just on the orth...Anon 22: I wouldn't pin this just on the orthodox. Plenty of other people target their charitable donations to institutions that are not involved with helping the poor, fighting disease and similar ideals. It is sad, however, that giving money for a fancy building gets more recognition than programs to help abused children, to provide visitation for housebound elderly, job training/retraining for the poor unemployed and, oh yeah, for healthy food for the poor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-42328467273490699632010-09-22T09:45:25.771-04:002010-09-22T09:45:25.771-04:00"Some wealthy people like showing off with th..."Some wealthy people like showing off with their contributions and then, like my brother complain that they are taken advantage of when they realize that they've put themselves in a bad situation."<br /><br />And I know people, not religious, that have big houses, big boats, fancy cars (not stupid Hondas like Teaneck, actually expensive cars, 80k-120k), and not a penny to their name.<br /><br />People like to show off their wealth.<br /><br />In Orthodox circles, you do it by being a Macher.<br /><br />Not sure how that is ANY different that the fancy car, given that the big donations to buy fancy things may be IRS Charity, "Masser" Charity, but certainly not feeding poor people, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-48551856887674340182010-09-22T08:33:35.279-04:002010-09-22T08:33:35.279-04:00In my family I have the opposite problem. I earn ...In my family I have the opposite problem. I earn a lot more than my siblings, although they have no idea how much more since I live quite modestly (drive used Toyotas, small house with no granite or stainless in the kitchen, etc.) but they know I am in a profession that tend to pay pretty well. I try to give my siblings money for things like groceries and expenses they pay for our parents which the siblings can't really afford comfortably but I can (I pay for the home health aid and some other things directly, but I'm not local so can't do the grocery shopping and other extras) but my checks get ripped up or go uncashed so I have to resort to slipping 20's into their wallets when I am in town and buying things they can't rip up like gift certificates. I realize they want to do their part to help my parents but they do all the heavy lifting and I only write checks. Among work colleagues and non-jewish friends I know a lot of people who would never dream of accepting money from a sibling for luxuries like big weddings or jewelry and would be embarrased to accept money even in an emergency.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-61634553096695353032010-09-22T08:20:23.142-04:002010-09-22T08:20:23.142-04:00Anon 8:06: Yes, I think the "rich chosside&q...Anon 8:06: Yes, I think the "rich chosside" letter writer probably falls into the category of those who show off their wealth and then regret the expectations that creates in some others.<br /><br />BTW: Very interesting that an MO is funding a Chabad house.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-50788816514518758242010-09-22T08:06:32.408-04:002010-09-22T08:06:32.408-04:00My dear brother, who is MO, is "very wealthy,...My dear brother, who is MO, is "very wealthy," meaning that he has a net worth of around $2 million, is constantly being hit up for money by the local Chabad House rabbi. He loves playing the big shot and getting honored. Unfortunately, much of the money he gives them comes at the expense of his IRA contribution and daughers' college fund. I have a feeling that he is not alone. Some wealthy people like showing off with their contributions and then, like my brother complain that they are taken advantage of when they realize that they've put themselves in a bad situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-45168318957079661182010-09-22T02:08:53.857-04:002010-09-22T02:08:53.857-04:00Megapixel,
Was the rich guy upset about that? Or ...Megapixel,<br /><br />Was the rich guy upset about that? Or did he take it in stride?CJ Srullowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01851508109666827492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60293403735876747222010-09-22T00:01:20.075-04:002010-09-22T00:01:20.075-04:00many very wealthy people are hit upon for money by...many very wealthy people are hit upon for money by others who feel, they have so much, why shouldnt i get some of it. he should be happy its just his family and not strangers...<br /><br />I know a wealthy guy who sends a thousand dollars to a widow he knows, before pesach every year. well, one year she decided that she needed to get away and a hotel would be perfect. she sent him the hotel's bill...megapixelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27616633560065247612010-09-21T21:45:17.616-04:002010-09-21T21:45:17.616-04:00Because of culture, he feels powerless to say no. ...<i>Because of culture, he feels powerless to say no. </i><br /><br />I'd say more dysfunctional family dynamics than culture. There are dysfunctional families in every culture.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63790796117919703892010-09-21T18:23:46.742-04:002010-09-21T18:23:46.742-04:00Clearly anonymous is reading a different letter th...Clearly anonymous is reading a different letter than I am reading. The letter writer did not volunteer to pay these bills, he was sent the bill without a consult. Because of culture, he feels powerless to say no. <br /><br />As for the comment about money not being spent on drugs, I would argue that by providing such funds he is addicting them to a lifestyle that is destructive, much as providing them with drug money would be. <br /><br />Thanks for the dissenting comment, however.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-20028041848619115252010-09-21T18:09:39.900-04:002010-09-21T18:09:39.900-04:00Really, not even the part where the wealthy relati...Really, not even the part where the wealthy relative is feeling used and taken advantage of?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.com