tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post8138343148001309617..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Guest Post from Kollel GuyOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-75079293845789163142010-05-17T14:18:33.425-04:002010-05-17T14:18:33.425-04:00When ‘dayanim’, ‘rabbis’ and false ‘mekubalim’ use...When ‘dayanim’, ‘rabbis’ and false ‘mekubalim’ use the Torah for their own power and commercial profit, this behaviour is abhorrent. <br /><br />No other ‘rabbi’ will ever act against another ‘rabbi’ - even when he knows his colleague is clearly desecrating the Torah. Each rabbi is only worried about losing his own position.<br /><br />Therefore, the ‘rabbi’, ‘dayyan’ or false ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) will never effect justice. And he will never truly stand for the Torah or the Honour of Hashem. His pocket will always prevail. <br /><br />The Torah must never be used for commercial gain and profit. Amm israel can only be lead by those who have the necessary love and respect of Hashem and the Torah.Eliyahoo William Dweknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-35907466954346350892010-05-17T14:17:46.072-04:002010-05-17T14:17:46.072-04:00Any man who chooses to be a ‘rabbi’ (‘true teacher...Any man who chooses to be a ‘rabbi’ (‘true teacher’ of Torah) or a ‘dayan’ (‘judge’), or a ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) should be doing so Voluntarily. Out of his pure love for Hashem and the Torah. And his Ahavat Yisrael. <br /><br />If he refuses to do community work voluntarily, and wants and accepts payment for everything he does, such a man should not be leading a community. He should get a job and earn a living. He can collect milk bottles or clean the windows. That is what is called ‘earning a living’. <br /><br />Torah is learned, studied and taught: out of Love. Voluntarily. But the ‘rabbis’ have turned the Torah into their ‘Profession’, from which they earn money. <br /><br />We are commanded in the Shema to:<br />‘LOVE Hashem, your G-d, WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and with all your soul and with all your might.’ <br /><br />‘VE’AHAVTA et Hashem Elokecha BECHOL LEVAVECHA uvechol nafshecha uvechol meodecha.’ (Devarim, Vaethanan, 6:4-5)<br /><br />Is the ordinary man or woman PAID to pray to Hashem, or to say some words of Torah? No. Has veshalom! But the rabbis are. These men can give ‘lovely’ shiurim that they have rehearsed. But they would not give a shiur without being paid for it.<br /><br />The true hachamim and rabbis of old, all actually worked at proper jobs and professions. <br /><br />Wake up! Even a little child could have worked this out. These salaried men can never truly stand for the Torah, because in a case of conflict between a correct course of action according to the Torah, and the rabbi or rav’s pocket – his pocket and position will always prevail.<br /><br />Pirkei Avot: (2:2) <br />“Raban Gamliel beno shel Rabi Yehuda HaNassi omer: yafeh talmud Torah im derech eretz, sheyegiat shenaihem mashkachat avon. Vechol Torah she’ein imah melacha sofa betailah ve’goreret avon. Vechol haoskim im hatzibbur yiheyu imahem leShem Shamayim……”<br /><br />“Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabi Yehuda HaNassi, said: It is good to combine Torah study with a worldly occupation, for working at them both drives sin from the mind. All Torah without an occupation will in the end fail and lead to sin. And let all who work for the community do so for the sake of Heaven………”Eliyahoo William Dweknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27135751138773441362010-02-28T10:50:40.833-05:002010-02-28T10:50:40.833-05:00I am not an observant Jew but worked as a school p...I am not an observant Jew but worked as a school psychologist at a yeshiva for 5 years. Many of the students at our school who made the decision to pursue the Kollel life were actually in the bottom quartile of their graduating class in both the Judaic and secular classes. The Kollel in our area had no problem accepting them despite their weak academic skills, and this Kollel has no problem sending out requests to the general Jewish population for scholarship support for these students. I personally feel that most of these students knew on some level that they could not get a decent job and made this choice the avoid making some hard decisions, like perhaps going into a vocational training program. Keeping up appearances seemed to be the operating factor, and I my job was threatened by several parents when I suggested that their sons take their time and explore their options. The administration also "ordered" me to keep my opinions to myself, which prompted my leaving.<br />Happy Purim,<br />Dr. AaronAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-30968522067882362582010-02-19T15:22:15.731-05:002010-02-19T15:22:15.731-05:00"There is another problem of long-term Kollel..."There is another problem of long-term Kollel -- namely, the children don't have role models of fathers getting a degree, earning a living, and supporting their families."(2-16-10, 11:45 A.M.<br /><br />To me, this is may be a bigger problem than the economic issues. The children do have male role models; someone who disdains work, looks to marry rich, allows elderly parents to work past retirement age to support him. The culture of dependency may well be stronger that the culture of Torah in future generation. And that would be a disaster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10125692474588514072010-02-19T10:43:21.598-05:002010-02-19T10:43:21.598-05:00Al - absolutely: my parents buy me staples all the...Al - absolutely: my parents buy me staples all the time. But I don't ASK them to. And I don't put my kids up to begging for anything. <br /><br />My mother just happens to enjoy buying a dozen bottles of detergent or 4 boxes of cereal in a great sale. She can't use them herself, so she brings them to my house...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86873536984288071202010-02-19T10:27:21.209-05:002010-02-19T10:27:21.209-05:00Tesyaa,
I'm NOT a Kollel family, I'm N...Tesyaa,<br /><br /> I'm NOT a Kollel family, I'm NOT poor, and my parents often buy the kids shoes... :) I just wish I had a video of my daughter conning my father into multiple pairs of little pink toddler shoes... :)<br /><br /> We've gone through good times and bad times, and at ALL times, my parents have indulged and spoiled the children, perhaps with things that you "think" we should have done.<br /><br /> The role of grandparents is to indulge the grandchildren, even if it is for staples. Sure, the family could buy $10 shoes at Wal-mart, but why if Grandma/Grandpa are HAPPY to buy them expensive shoes elsewhere?<br /><br /> Communicate your values to your children, and that includes where you put your money. If you subsidize a Kollel family, clearly you value it. If you pay for college, you value that. If you pay for loafing around aimlessly... well...Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-79476789822639568622010-02-18T19:15:35.307-05:002010-02-18T19:15:35.307-05:00Anon 6:36 - in theory I agree with your points 100...Anon 6:36 - in theory I agree with your points 100%. In practice, some parents find it hard to see their children really struggling, even if it is the children's choice to be in kollel. I have heard stories of tiny grandchildren coming to grandparents and complaining that their feet hurt because their shoes are too small. Dollars to doughnuts, the toddlers' parents told them to go tell Grandma that they can't afford shoes that fit. But I have heard that it is very hard to leave your grandchildren suffering. So even the most resolute parents might find themselves paying for everyday items (not special gifts) that their children should be paying for themselves.<br /><br />Please do not tell me that you are in kollel and you don't do this - I know that. I know that not every family does this, and I also know that this could happen in non-kollel families. But there are subtle dynamics that can weaken one's resolution not to support grown, married children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-7603381312454929022010-02-18T18:36:42.296-05:002010-02-18T18:36:42.296-05:00Gavra@work, I am a young frum woman who went to a ...Gavra@work, I am a young frum woman who went to a very right wing seminary, and judging by what I have seen in my friends, "buying into" the standard shpiel of what a bais yaakov girl should do with her life is determined by a. the girl's highschool (remember just because she went to what you think is an MO school it doesn't mean her teachers will hold your hashkafas) and b. the parents' expectations and willingness to enable their child. Sem is not what makes BY girls what they are. Yes, you may be MO, but if your daughter comes back from sem and wants to marry a kollel guy, you can choose whether or not to support her. If you do choose to support her, you can't complain. If you don't, and the couple make it on their own, then that's their choice and at least they're not draining your resources.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-15930033159858869282010-02-18T15:07:47.862-05:002010-02-18T15:07:47.862-05:00The reason scientists publish is because in academ...The reason scientists publish is because in academia your reputation depends on it - "publish or perish." There are only a limited number of professorships and research grants and papers, conference appearances, etc. are the standard by which applicants are measured. In the Torah world there are different standards For example, R' Chaim Brisker, surely the greatest mind on the last 200 years, wrote next to nothing in his lifetime. R' Soloveitchik held that torha sheba'al peh is still largely an oral tradition and therefore he did not publish much in his lifetime either.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-71097962395271372652010-02-18T13:46:17.835-05:002010-02-18T13:46:17.835-05:00There are hundreds of students of physics, but onl...<i> There are hundreds of students of physics, but only one Einstein or Feynman</i><br /><br />True someone of that caliber only comes along once in a great while, though I can name half a dozen of them from the 20th century (Dirac, Fermi, Feynman, Chandra, Edington etc) But every working scientist is going to be publish new material on a regular basis or he won't have any funding or a job.Zach Kessinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04276155117746098546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-91423763919098865602010-02-18T13:19:55.789-05:002010-02-18T13:19:55.789-05:00>>>are there any major chidushim being ma...>>>are there any major chidushim being made <br /><br />It takes a certain creative talent to be mechadesh, but I can't imagine someone learning seriously for a long time not having any new insight. There are people saying shiurim, writing tshuvos, speaking about machshava, and writing seforim all the time with new ideas. Of course, like in any research area, the average "doctoral level" student is building on the work done before him and adding a small measure of nuance or new perspective. Truly revolutionary thinkers come along once in a generation. There are hundreds of students of physics, but only one Einstein or Feynman. Simialrly, there was only one Chofetz Chaim, one Brisker Rav, one R' Ahron Kotler.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-87032177129734170122010-02-18T13:00:49.292-05:002010-02-18T13:00:49.292-05:00Torah learning is critical to the universe achievi...Torah learning is critical to the universe achieving its purpose. What good is a human race that fails to be close to HaShem for lack of Torah learning, and what good then is the earth and its contents that sustain the human race?anon1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34815311969578675532010-02-17T23:40:03.212-05:002010-02-17T23:40:03.212-05:00Learning Torah is measured not just in quanitity, ...<i>Learning Torah is measured not just in quanitity, but in quality as well. </i><br /><br />Chaim B: off topic, but you might be able to answer a question I have. In all the massive amounts of learning that are b"h taking place in the world today, are there any major chidushim being made (along the lines of new & groundbreaking research in the academic world)? Or is it more a passing down of subject matter that has been codified and can't be added to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-79917390270918064202010-02-17T20:35:07.326-05:002010-02-17T20:35:07.326-05:00Learning Torah is measured not just in quanitity, ...Learning Torah is measured not just in quanitity, but in quality as well. The argument that kollel diverts resources that could be used to meet other, more pressing communal needs presupposes a value judgment about what needs are more pressing than others. Value judgments are not the domain of economics; they are in the domain of halacha. For example, R' Moshe has a tshuvah about whether a kollel or kindergarten should be funded when $ are short. Armchair theorizing cannot replace the shulchan aruch.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-4693088396290506622010-02-17T20:27:41.931-05:002010-02-17T20:27:41.931-05:00The goal of kollel is not to sustain the universe ...The goal of kollel is not to sustain the universe -- I was merely pointing out that such a belief has more than a few sources to back it up and should not be taken lightly.<br /><br />The justification for kollel is torah lishma, which R' Chaim Volozhiner explains at length in that section as well. To ask why we need kollel presupposes that there is some other, higher aim, purpose, or value which provides meaning or utility for Torah. This is not the case at all, and the very questions demeans Torah. Torah is the highest aim, that which gives meaning and purpose to the rest of creation.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-69012974524810283222010-02-17T17:39:13.692-05:002010-02-17T17:39:13.692-05:00Chaim B,
Accepting your belief in that concept ...Chaim B,<br /> Accepting your belief in that concept as literal, doesn't that undermine the very purpose of Kollel?<br /> Kollel presupposed that a place for married men to learn, with a stipend from donors, allows them to dedicate their life to Torah study.<br /> These institutions are predominately in NYC and Jerusalem, with some throughout the United States and Europe.<br /> If the concern is that a single moment will pass without Torah Study, wouldn't it make more sense to shut the Kollelim down? Our younger, single students engage in Torah study during the school day, and our working men learn in the mornings and evenings. Kollel learners appear to be redundant, since the young Bachurim are already learning in those hours. Further, Kollel encourages people to congregate in areas of an established Jewish community. If the goal is, Torah study of every instance of time, the goal should be to disperse Jews, Chabad style, where they could learn in different time zones, to make sure that Torah is always being learned.<br /> Defend Kollel all you want, but preservation of the existence of the universe seems like a poor argument.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80952248722866648862010-02-17T15:20:58.973-05:002010-02-17T15:20:58.973-05:00>>>Do you think the universe will implode...>>>Do you think the universe will implode if there's no torah study occurring?<br /><br />"The truth without any doubt is that if, in the entire world, from one end to the other, there was ever even a single moment in which Torah was not being studied, the entire universe and all of its worlds in an instant would cease to exist, G-d forbid." <br />R' Chaim Volozhiner, Nefesh haChaim 4:11<br />R' Chaim Volozhiner devotes the 4th section of his sefer to explaining the power of Torah; you need that background to understand how these ideas make sense.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-62505874164174200052010-02-16T18:30:36.905-05:002010-02-16T18:30:36.905-05:00"Is that your point -- it's an escape fro..."Is that your point -- it's an escape from having to grow up and make choices?"<br /><br />Not an escape from making choices, but to prevent a young adult from making choices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29737476176580246502010-02-16T18:00:23.419-05:002010-02-16T18:00:23.419-05:00> I'm not denying that Torah learning is cr...<i>> I'm not denying that Torah learning is critical to the universe.</i><br /><br />Please provide some basis for this utterly absurd statement.<br /><br />If you want to say that you value torah learning, that's fine. <br /><br />If you want to claim that it enhances your life, I'll trust you.<br /><br />If you believe that you will earn spiritual brownie points for learning torah, I won't disabuse of the notion.<br /><br />But how, pray tell, can it rationally be claimed that Torah learning is critical to the universe? How exactly? Do you think the universe will implode if there's no torah study occurring?shainoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33742333097678447772010-02-16T17:50:28.609-05:002010-02-16T17:50:28.609-05:00Anon 5:22 - I'm not sure what you mean. I don...Anon 5:22 - I'm not sure what you mean. I don't view a yeshiva student or a thirty-year old Kollel guy supported by parents or in-laws as having much freedom to make choices. Is that your point -- it's an escape from having to grow up and make choices?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89634537395348200252010-02-16T17:30:36.258-05:002010-02-16T17:30:36.258-05:00I feel sorry for these young couples who go into K...I feel sorry for these young couples who go into Kollel because that is what they were taught, without any real understanding of what it means and how hard it can be to get a decent job or go back to school at 30 or older, particularly if you have a family. There are two solutions -- a) No one should be allowed into Kollel before age 25 and have worked full time in the real world for at least two years; or b) no one should be allowed to stay in Kollel after age 22 (other than the age 60+ guys) unless they have demonstrated they are one of top few learners and thinkers and are giving back and will give back by sharing the fruits of their studies in some fashion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37938661578793934822010-02-16T17:22:45.624-05:002010-02-16T17:22:45.624-05:00Kollel for older adults seems to solve many proble...Kollel for older adults seems to solve many problems. However, kollel may not only be about learning. It may be an attempt to extend the yeshiva high school years well into adulthood. A yeshiva high school student and a 30 year old kollel student have a similar amount of freedom to make their own choices; especially if the 30 year old is still dependent on parents and the yeshiva.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-31132611143046525272010-02-16T17:12:16.416-05:002010-02-16T17:12:16.416-05:00It's not only the "decline in living stan...It's not only the "decline in living standards" that distresses me in kollel Lakewood. It is the economic poverty I witness that pains me. A wife, even a speech therapist, can't make enough to support a large family and pay tuition. The situation of the family grows more and more dire over the passing years, and I see it while the parents live in what seems to me a daze, distracted by the hubbub of family life. The old car breaks down with no one to replace it. The old house grows shabby with no one to make repairs. They can't afford to buy a newspaper - Hamodia or Yated I mean - so there is no English reading matter in the home. Everything they have is a gift from relatives or from a gemach. And the relatives can never give enough to pay day to day necessities, with a toy here and a book there. The mother gets more tired, more wiped out, going without sleep, and some mothers become secretly resentful. I see it in their eyes and in their lack of happiness, even in moments when they reveal envy unintentionally. I wish I could shake these young men of 30 plus and shake some sense into them. But that would be negiah.Rochelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-45675535152862971672010-02-16T17:09:19.651-05:002010-02-16T17:09:19.651-05:00Update on robbery from Rav Shteinmen's home h...Update on robbery from Rav Shteinmen's home http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/48589/Report:+Burglary+into+Maran+R+Shteinmans+Home+an+Inside+Job.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89008304513187924522010-02-16T17:09:06.575-05:002010-02-16T17:09:06.575-05:00Is this where I note that if the religious leaders...Is this where I note that if the religious leaders for any given group have less foresight than a decent actuary, you may have an issue?<br /><br />Seriously, doesn't it mean something bad if the Rabbonim either don't see the problem, or don't have the will or ability to fix it before the train wreck?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.com