tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post831254170592003283..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Critical Thinking: Important for AllOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41707941151164331852010-09-26T10:42:13.219-04:002010-09-26T10:42:13.219-04:00Ora-You can see the link here: http://dl.dropbox....Ora-You can see the link here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1448492/Yated_Spero_Answer.pdf (Credit to Dov Bear)Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-20897876384553079592010-09-26T05:07:25.655-04:002010-09-26T05:07:25.655-04:00From what you wrote, it doesn't sound to me li...From what you wrote, it doesn't sound to me like the speaker was criticizing women's Torah study as pointless. He was saying it's "somewhat pointless" if a woman knows Torah but doesn't know life skills. For the most part, I agree.<br /><br />I think the secular equivalent would be, say, someone getting a college degree but having no idea how to present themselves or write coherently. What's the point of a college degree, if you still don't have the basic skills to get a job?<br /><br />And what's the point of having memorized this or that bit of Torah, if you still struggle to do basic mitzvot? Isn't knowing how to make Shabbat, even if you don't know what exactly the Ramban said about specific Shabbat observances, more useful than the opposite?<br /><br />And before anyone feels the need to ask, yes, I think the same can be said for men.<br /><br />Now as for the question of how to teach life skills - I think that should be done in school, with a serious course on home economics. Something that teaches things like nutrition, budgeting, and the way different ingredients work.<br /><br />I think it's silly to argue that such-and-such a person didn't know how to cook but learned quickly. I learned a programming language in less than a week. So? So let's not have college courses in programming anymore, it's something that can be quickly learned at home... There's no end to that argument. Some people know nothing about how to cook and learn quickly (just like some people pick up any topic quickly), but others struggle for many years. Bottom line is, it's a crucial life skill and so schools should teach it, whether or not there are some people who manage to overcome their ignorance without help.<br /><br />(I actually do agree that many people could learn life skills at home if their parents were to teach them, but OTOH I think that of everything. Most of what schools teach - math, etc, included - could be taught in 1/5 the time if it were taught one-on-one when the student is in the mood to learn).<br /><br />And JS, there is no comparing making Shabbat with children to care for vs. without, no matter how many guests you have. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to downplay the difficulty of what you're doing now, but even people who can make Shabbat for a crowd on Friday afternoon may find that they need help (or need to start much, much earlier in the week) to make a simple Shabbat when there are children in the picture.Oranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40089524948322241192010-09-17T11:03:22.167-04:002010-09-17T11:03:22.167-04:00ARIELLA:
your "truth" is irrelevant. th...ARIELLA:<br /><br />your "truth" is irrelevant. this has nothing to do with your right to free speech or moreover your obligation to speak out on matters of importance.<br /><br />your truth has nothing to do with the accepted concensus on jewish gender roles in general and in education in specific. it also has nothing to do with the fact that jewish girls did just fine for a thousand years without formal education as we understand it today.<br /><br />all i was saying is that i'm surprised that people here are suprised that many people think girls get a better education in the kitchen than in school.<br /><br />have an easy fast.Lion of Zionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-42218835924107219812010-09-15T11:06:50.128-04:002010-09-15T11:06:50.128-04:00LOZ, with all due respect, I am not only writing f...LOZ, with all due respect, I am not only writing for your sake, and truth is never irrelevant. The Maharal decried the deviation of the ideal education for boys in his time. Was he wrong to waste his time when no one listened? Why should Supreme Court justices bother to write dissenting opinions when the law was set otherwise? One is allowed to speak up for what one believes is true. Torah learning entails much that is essential for every practicing Jew to know. In the time of Chezkeyahu Hamelech, Chazal say, every single child --boy and girl -- was an expert in hichos tuma and tahara, laws that are very intricate and largely skipped over today. And the way this was accomplished was with a sword stuck in the doorway of the bais medrash as a concrete reminder of the consequences for not learning.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-28475063209566410382010-09-15T10:52:33.248-04:002010-09-15T10:52:33.248-04:00ARIELLA:
(btw, it is an interesting observation)ARIELLA:<br /><br />(btw, it is an interesting observation)LoZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63473592804879931572010-09-15T09:33:55.842-04:002010-09-15T09:33:55.842-04:00ARIELLE:
"he's off b/c the teachers want...ARIELLE:<br /><br />"he's off b/c the teachers want to be off"<br /><br />no kidding.<br />the official reason i was given for 2 days before sukkot is that the rebbeim need an extra day to put up a sukkah. (because they can't do it any other day of the week they get home at 1pm? or manage like other parents who don't get off even on erev itself? and why do i want someone isn't rushing to build a sukkah as soon as yom kippur is over being a role model for my son?)<br /><br />"Hakthav Vehakabala"<br /><br />if you're trying to convince me, then you're wasting your time (preaching to the choir). if you're trying to make a larger point regarding the concensus i mentioned above regarding girls and education, then it is irrelevant because he is not part of the concensus. and in any case i think you are reading too much into it as well as retrojecting your own anachronostic concept of what "learning" entailsLoZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16976911023015121102010-09-14T20:43:18.637-04:002010-09-14T20:43:18.637-04:00good observation!good observation!Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-3638924684718058222010-09-14T17:50:41.680-04:002010-09-14T17:50:41.680-04:00I think that the answer to the original question c...I think that the answer to the original question can be seen in the woman's letter. She doesn't want her daughter to experience married life as a "baptism by fire." Yet maybe her daughter needs a more serious Jewish education so that her world of metaphors will be Jewish and not Christian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-18422349847231567172010-09-14T15:06:37.012-04:002010-09-14T15:06:37.012-04:00LOZ,
Do you really think that five hundred or a t...LOZ,<br /><br />Do you really think that five hundred or a thousand years ago, the ordinary Jew was looking for bugs on broccoli or strawberries, went to yeshiva and kollel until 30, and had four complete sets of dishes, pans, ovens, (and for all I know, you believe they had 4 dishwashers as well)? Do you believe that most of the women of these times knew (apparently without ever being taught) all of the halacha which developed over the last thousand years?<br /><br />Do you really think that in the time of Ezra, any of the Jewish people were doing all these things? Did the women of that time (not the idol worshipers, but the Jewish ones) know all of the halachot codified in shulchan aruch?<br /><br />If not, then we know that most of these things are, at best, stringencies which are not essential to Judaism. If so, then kol hakavod to you.conservative scifinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80643349085783900142010-09-14T14:01:52.118-04:002010-09-14T14:01:52.118-04:00Well, I suppose I'll be finding out soon enoug...Well, I suppose I'll be finding out soon enough... :)<br /><br />We save the cleaning till right before Shabbat generally. We find there's no sense wasting time beforehand since it will just need to be redone. I think you also need to adjust expectations. For example, I'd expect our house to be a whole lot cleaner if we both had more time. Similarly, when our baby is born, I expect things will be a whole lot messier unless we get cleaning help. If your expectation is that everything needs to be spotless for "Shabbos Kodesh" then I imagine it would take a lot of time. I'd rather adjust my expectations than spend hours of my life cleaning and pull my kid out of school to help.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-20702574912216478142010-09-14T13:49:23.053-04:002010-09-14T13:49:23.053-04:00JS: cooking isn't the problem. I could cook yo...JS: cooking isn't the problem. I could cook you a fancy 5-course meal with 3 hours of prep time if I didn't have children crawling under my feet.<br /><br />Cleaning when there are children wrecking all over the place... is a whole different story...<br /><br />When you've got two toilet training and one of them is obsessed with scissors and play-doh, it's a whole different ball game.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-66018201173447122002010-09-14T13:43:18.527-04:002010-09-14T13:43:18.527-04:00Correct. Our first is on the way.
But, we do hav...Correct. Our first is on the way.<br /><br />But, we do have guests for Shabbos. We try to invite three couples since our table fits this many, the conversation is more enjoyable, and it's a bigger "bang for the buck" for almost the same effort.<br /><br />We do the shopping on Sunday or late after work and stay up a few nights doing the cooking and cleaning. We don't take a day off or hire cleaning or cooking help or whatever. It's just the two of us. And, I'd note we're not the fastest or most efficient either. I imagine someone could do it in half the time - for example, by doing more in parallel than serially.<br /><br />Also, we cook far more for these meals than we ever would even if we had lots of kids (several mains, sides, salads, desserts, etc).<br /><br />If you don't have the time, you make things fit in the time you have. The same is true when you have too much time on your hands - the work expands to fill the time, as was mentioned above.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90571778058175217542010-09-14T13:38:24.906-04:002010-09-14T13:38:24.906-04:00"Is it clean?"
"Man clean."
..."Is it clean?"<br /><br />"Man clean."<br /><br />"What does that mean?"<br /><br />"Don't open any doors, don't open any cupboards, and don't look under anything."Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-2935747780497778032010-09-14T13:05:22.985-04:002010-09-14T13:05:22.985-04:00"What I simply don't understand is why it..."What I simply don't understand is why it takes so much effort to cook and clean for Shabbat. "<br /><br />Um, JS, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you guys don't have kids yet?<br /><br />Not that it takes me so long to clean for Shabbat since I don't actually clean anything just shove everything off the dining room table and sweep the floor.tdrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-92193952478617638422010-09-14T12:05:51.664-04:002010-09-14T12:05:51.664-04:00LOZ, he's off b/c the teachers want to be off....LOZ, he's off b/c the teachers want to be off. That's always the case with younger kids who create extra work for parents who have to keep them occupied and supervised while also preparing for Yom Tov. <br /><br />On metzuveh veoseh vs. eyno metzuveh veose, check out Hakthav Vehakabala on women's obligation to attend Hakhel. I guarantee you that most women today do not learn all that they are obligated to learn , i.e. halachos. I'll add it into my post that links to this Orthonomics post.<br /><br />It is not unheard of for girls to have school on Sundays in Borough Park. I do not know if they are off altogether on Fridays, but my husband actually had that schedule for half the year in MTA. In my girls' school, the younger ones get out at 1:30 and the older ones -- from 6th grade up -- at 12. So they, actually, do have time to help.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60321466488183337812010-09-14T11:39:16.221-04:002010-09-14T11:39:16.221-04:00"the amount of work that “must” be done to pr..."the amount of work that “must” be done to prepare for Shabbat expands to fill the time available."<br /><br />so is this the proper place for me to harp on my pet peeve and complain that next week my son has off 2 days for erev sukkot? or to keep it within the context of the post, i can understand why girls have off 2 days, but my son?LoZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-34371689249953271512010-09-14T11:21:38.375-04:002010-09-14T11:21:38.375-04:00sethg-prime: Parkinson's Law is timeless &...sethg-prime: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_Law" rel="nofollow">Parkinson's Law </a>is timeless & universal.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29459459240343891252010-09-14T11:05:06.617-04:002010-09-14T11:05:06.617-04:00JS: the amount of work that “must” be done to prep...JS: the amount of work that “must” be done to prepare for Shabbat expands to fill the time available. See my comment above about arms races.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25855886517631925192010-09-14T10:40:10.954-04:002010-09-14T10:40:10.954-04:00I can't say I'm surprised. There is an ev...I can't say I'm surprised. There is an ever-growing movement in Orthodoxy to return to this mythical European shtetl lifestyle which never existed in the first place (but don't dare say that). So, I think it's only natural that the next step would be turning back the clock on Bais Yaakov and returning to the "ideal European existence" of every woman being a homemaker, unable to even read Hebrew let alone daven or learn, and having minimal if any secular education. After all, the menfolk have already returned to the "ideal European existence" of learning in kollel for years on end and shunning an education or a job.<br /><br />While it's all a simple progression, I wonder if they'll take it to the next step and start their own actual shtetl in, say, upstate New York or Nebraska. Who knows? Maybe this will be a way of keeping this no/low income system afloat - a communal existence in a low cost area.<br /><br />What I simply don't understand is why it takes so much effort to cook and clean for Shabbat. My wife and I both work long days and often don't get home till 10-11. Yet, somehow, miraculously, our house is clean and we have food for Shabbat and the week. Maybe the gedolim should come to our home to see this open miracle. Maybe fliers can go out telling people if they donate money, a group of rabbis will come to the JS house and pray for them that Hashem should give them the ability to also have a clean home and food for Shabbos without needing several days of preparation and the aid of one's daughters.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-88854783095956190272010-09-14T10:14:20.156-04:002010-09-14T10:14:20.156-04:00LeahGG: There are generations of jewish women ove...LeahGG: There are generations of jewish women over the millenia who had superior balabusta skills without knowing much halacha. Of course, most of the men also did not know much since nearly everyone was illiterate or close thereto. There are far better rationales for providing good educations and thinking skills to both women and men than knowing when to throw out a pot and when not to. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-67944433799130547442010-09-14T10:10:21.126-04:002010-09-14T10:10:21.126-04:00LEAH:
i repeat, lechatchila there is no reason fo...LEAH:<br /><br />i repeat, lechatchila there is no reason for women to learn torah. <br /><br />all you're doing is giving more bedi'eved justifications.<br /><br />(worse yet, your second justification is mezalzel on hundreds of generations of women who knew exactly what to do by watching their mothers rather than by going to bais yaakov or worse yet learning from actual seforim.)LoZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23923035195316615922010-09-14T09:44:06.273-04:002010-09-14T09:44:06.273-04:00well, while Tatti's off in Yeshiva or wherever...well, while Tatti's off in Yeshiva or wherever, someone has to tutor Moishele, since his rebeim haven't been paid in six months because Tatti's off in Yeshiva instead of earning a salary, so the Rebbe has to go schnor to make ends meet so he certainly can't afford to spend extra time on teaching...so Mommy better be able to teach some mishnayos, at least...<br /><br />Plus, a lot of keeping a Jewish home kosher and Shabbasdik involves at least knowing the halacha, and you don't know the halacha well without knowing at least the l'chatchila and b'dieveds of each situation...<br /><br />For example, it's important to learn the halachot of Yom Tov beyond just watching what your mom does so that you don't think you can start cooking for the next Yom Tov on the first day of a two-day chag because you made an eruv tavshilin... (my husband - who studied in yeshiva - thought it was ok, until I made him look it up in the mishna brura.) There is a workaround, in which you eat a piece before the first chag is over, and if you did it, the food is ok b'diavad, but you shouldn't do it l'chatchila... <br /><br />When my mom had studied less, she actually threw out pots (the pot, not the contents) if she found a single bug in something she cooked. <br /><br />The best balabusta skills are developed by knowing halacha!Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-91649025235713997652010-09-14T09:41:11.768-04:002010-09-14T09:41:11.768-04:00My own over-academic background has made me famili...My own over-academic background has made me familiar with the concept of the arms race.<br /><br />In a community where girls are generally at school on Fridays and women are generally housewives who can’t afford maid service, the standard for socially acceptable Shabbat prep is whatever one woman can accomplish in a day. A woman who has her daughter home on Friday can one-up her neighbors by taking advantage of the extra labor and having an even more spotless dining room, even more elaborate meals, or some such.<br /><br />If that community changed its school schedule so that <i>all</i> girls get Fridays off, then the standard for the entire community would be shifted upward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39164310090196339022010-09-14T09:28:33.465-04:002010-09-14T09:28:33.465-04:00i think the question of secular and jewish educati...i think the question of secular and jewish education needs to be separated. dumbing down secular education is extremely myopic for practical reasons (i.e., parnasah), particularly in communities where the women might be expected to be the major bread winner. i think in this regard the schools (i.e., communities and parents) are shooting themselves in the foot.<br /><br />but i really don't understand all the surprise about dumbing down limude kodesh and emphasizing homemaking skills. it's very nice that ariella above can tackle a ramban (and probably better than most of us batlaning menfolk here), but who cares? seriously. do you really think hashem prefers that she study torah rather than make/raise babies and bake her husband cakes for shabbat? you may not agree with this hashkafah, but in a nutshell this is the hashkafah of large swaths of the orthodox world. you can sit here all day explaining why girls should learn torah (and i personally would chime in), but at the end of the day this is mostly post facto justification for people who see everything in simple terms of either metzuveh vs. not metzuveh.LoZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-59082533433701430262010-09-14T07:38:53.592-04:002010-09-14T07:38:53.592-04:00What are these people thinking? First, its minimiz...What are these people thinking? First, its minimizing secular education for men and encouraging men not to work, or not to work in a whole swath or careers that require degrees and now its denigrating education for women. Throw in mandatory private school, camp and expensive lifestyles and large families.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com