tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post8718073685585115564..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger315125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85684224464439492012010-01-06T18:27:11.526-05:002010-01-06T18:27:11.526-05:00>>"Right-wing or charedi families will ...>>"Right-wing or charedi families will never accept limiting of families."<<<br /><br />I believe a survey many years ago showed that charedim in Williamsburgh had more kids than in Boro Park, who in turn had more kids than those in Flatbush.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27338859935719852392010-01-06T11:03:23.964-05:002010-01-06T11:03:23.964-05:00If the program gave assistance on a per-child basi...If the program gave assistance on a per-child basis, need based, based upon an "assumed" tuition rate near the bottom end of the costs, then NNJ Kids might actually help.<br /><br />It's still funneling money at the broken schools, and removing accountability (a bad), but if you separate the communal need to fund education from tuition, you do two things:<br /><br />1. Stop slamming young families -- families that have children young are hitting tuition hurt between 25 and 30, which are minimal earning years... making them subsidize the families of high school children (for K-12 schools) is unreasonable, the young families are hurting, and don't need the costs pushed on them<br />2. Give an option for help from older generation -- giving to the local school for dinners, etc., may feel good, but warps the market... the schools in the wealthiest areas with the wealthiest residents get the most support, and schools serving the less well-off don't get support. Separating the fund helps there.<br />3. Tax efficiency -- donations, particularly from those in high tax brackets that are rising, helps. If you donate an appreciated stock, you avoid the capital gain (15%), and get a Federal deduction (close to 40% in 2011), and any state deductions. That means that for every dollar a wealthy donor puts in, the government matches it a dollar. When you do hidden donations through the tuition, that is NOT tax deductible. That's a BIG difference.<br /><br />Funding scholarship via tuition dollars is a tax inefficient method that charges those that can least afford it. It also creates deadweight loss because it removes the incentive to make more money from young families. Families in their 20s and 30s should be able to make the major moves that can increase earning power (job hopping, more schooling, etc.) but not if the schools tax them 100%.<br /><br />NNJ Kids is NOT the solution, but it might help.Miami Alnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72988878022898653482010-01-06T09:34:24.971-05:002010-01-06T09:34:24.971-05:00Honestly Frum: Does NNJ Kids, which you support, ...Honestly Frum: Does NNJ Kids, which you support, make any limitations on which schools/students get funding. Wouldn't help if they said we will only give to schools (i) with a student to faculty ratio of least X; (ii) where administrators make no more than Y including benefits, etc. (iii) where there is an independent board of directors; (iv) where the books are open to parents. In other words, there should be some strings attached and incentives for the schools to operate efficiently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37258520559073031122010-01-06T01:27:01.641-05:002010-01-06T01:27:01.641-05:00NNJ Kids is trying to change the funding model and...NNJ Kids is trying to change the funding model and they are working on setting up an endowment. Change will not come overnight, nor should they be the only ones taking action however their long term goal of changing the burden from a parental focus to a communal one is seems much more sustainable than how the current system is set up. What amazes me is that everyone is yelling that we need a change and a solution and when NNJ Kids comes along and tries to do something about the problem, all people do is dismiss them, mostly based on misinformation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-75754591009795474812010-01-05T07:19:34.737-05:002010-01-05T07:19:34.737-05:00Anon 10:37 a.m., it's definitely possible that...Anon 10:37 a.m., it's definitely possible that giving up your liquidity could be hazardous. There's no guarantee that schools won't require you to dig into home equity or 401(k) savings for tuition - I hear some schools do that already. <br /><br />If both spouses aren't currently employed, it might make more sense for both parents to work reasonable schedules, instead one one working 80+ hours per week.<br /><br />Also, when you are on scholarship - your neighbors will look at you the same way you look at scholarship families. Your every spending move will be scrutinized by the masses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-74688249820539071292010-01-05T00:07:58.885-05:002010-01-05T00:07:58.885-05:00Honestly Frum - NNJ Kids are the only ones trying ...Honestly Frum - <i>NNJ Kids are the only ones trying to make significant changes</i><br /><br />Which significant changes are they trying to make?<br /><br />Please keep in mind that collecting more money from the community doesn't count as a "significant change", every single organization attempts to do that all the time.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-83998486549828819662010-01-04T21:38:08.015-05:002010-01-04T21:38:08.015-05:00"I understand why you feel like a fool for no..."I understand why you feel like a fool for not gaming the system, but instead of feeling like a fool, be proud of doing the right thing and setting a good example for your children."<br /><br />I'd rather take a job that allows me to see my kids during the week than "be proud" to pay full tuition like a sucker.I hate Bergen County Tuitionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-84185071239376412742010-01-04T20:42:21.075-05:002010-01-04T20:42:21.075-05:00Anonymous: Why are you switching to a lower payin...Anonymous: Why are you switching to a lower paying job? Is it because you believe you won't take home any less because you will get tuition assistance?<br /><br />I understand why you feel like a fool for not gaming the system, but instead of feeling like a fool, be proud of doing the right thing and setting a good example for your children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57866511290327645882010-01-04T10:37:17.688-05:002010-01-04T10:37:17.688-05:00If I am going to be applying for scholarship in th...If I am going to be applying for scholarship in the coming years (b\c I know I will be switching to a lower-paying job), should I be sure to spend down my discretionary cash (about $100k) on renovations to my house or paying down the mortgage. If I don't spend this money, will the scholarship committee not tell me to use this to pay tuition? <br /><br />I have been the fool paying full tuition while watching the neighbors on scholarship go on vacations. Now it is time to turn the tables and play the game the way the others do. I'll stop playing when the folks running these schools change the rules of game and stop punishing those of us who work hard and save.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51607312283684383502010-01-04T03:03:12.804-05:002010-01-04T03:03:12.804-05:00NNJ Kids are the only ones trying to make signific...NNJ Kids are the only ones trying to make significant changes, unless you have a better idea they are going to be the ones to implement the changes. I have much more to say on this issue in the coming days. One last comment on this is that people in our communities who are making the decisions are reading the blogs and comments don't think you do not have a voice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-73421686546069800162010-01-03T13:01:27.398-05:002010-01-03T13:01:27.398-05:00Shalom,
You have some good suggestions. But as y...Shalom,<br /><br />You have some good suggestions. But as you know, it is not so simple.<br /><br />My kids who go to one of the schools you mentioned already learn English in the morning and Hebrew in the afternoon so that suggestion won't help the school. And I am not certain what my kids are going to do while I am at work during the summer if not go to day camp. Last time I checked, child labor laws preclude sending children under the age of ten out to work.Trying hard in Teanecknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11506485734039172002010-01-02T21:32:38.909-05:002010-01-02T21:32:38.909-05:00Anon 2:57 PM - “I know for an absolute fact that t...Anon 2:57 PM - <i>“I know for an absolute fact that this is untrue for at least 4 schools.”<br /><br />Do you live in the NY-met area? That’s the only explanation I can think of. It’s not like that in the Midwest.</i><br /><br />I do not live in the NY Metro area (though I did grow up there).<br /><br /><i>“The first thing you should do is completely separate the school/tuition part from the charity/scholarship part.”<br /><br />In the school where I work, and the surrounding ones, it IS a separate organization. In fact, that organization is not even in the same state, let alone community. This is done for anonymity.</i><br /><br />You misunderstand me. I mean COMPLETELY separate, as in the money not mingled whatsoever, other than the charity organization remitting the balance of the tuition to the school. That way, the school receives the exact same amount of tuition for each student.<br /><br /><i>The problem is that people appeal their allotted scholarships and, as someone else on this blog rightfully said, they abuse it. Many of these people are not living within their means. They cannot afford the houses and the “toys” they purchase and their actual income is belied by the lifestyle they live. So, while the tuition assistance organization may be looking at salaries on paper, what they’re not taking into account is extreme lifestyles and irresponsibility. Day school is a choice, and an expensive one. If it's a priority, then other things should not be.</i><br /><br />Start tossing some of those kids out and lets see if the parent change their priorities. And if they don't change, then perhaps their kids don't belong in yeshiva, instead they can worship the almighty dollar like their parents are teaching them.<br /><br /><i>“What else should you do? Well, at some point you are going to have to decide if you are a prep school or a yeshiva.”<br /><br />So are you willing to give your kids a second rate secular education? I’m not, and I doubt your cohorts are. Especially since they’re being asked to go into professions that can accommodate sending their kids to tuition. Last time I checked, the “which ivy league school are you going to?” game was alive and well at most MO Jewish high schools. Less so in the Midwest, but still.</i><br /><br />My comment was in response to you making your school attractive to non-Orthodox (in competition with prep schools). But I do understand the problem!<br /><br /><i>“What kind of statement is this? Of course they are not learning Judaism, it's a public school, and religion is not permitted!!!”<br /><br />It’s a statement of fact, nothing more. For people who are looking at charter schools as an alternative to day school, they should know it is not a way to give your kid a Jewish education. Diversity, yes. Hebrew, yes. No tuition, yes. But if the Jewish education piece is not important, then this whole conversation is irrelevant anyway.</i><br /><br />The discussion is about people to whom Jewish education is a priority, though the money isn't there for it at current rates.<br /><br /><i>“I won't blame them if you can explain to me why we need so many of them (the administrators).”<br /><br />As I said, I don’t know where you live. It’s simply not the reality here.</i><br /><br />Then I can only assume that tuition rates are much lower where you live. Good for you! Here it's $15k a kid in grade school, $21k a kid in high school.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-3640707022362958032010-01-02T20:16:10.447-05:002010-01-02T20:16:10.447-05:00I dont live in the NYC area. We're in DC.I dont live in the NYC area. We're in DC.amlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27151581257449294052010-01-02T20:09:14.628-05:002010-01-02T20:09:14.628-05:00aml - Can you tell me where you live? Just curious...aml - Can you tell me where you live? Just curious. (looking for a county here, nothing more specific)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-86173153784064412102010-01-02T19:47:11.925-05:002010-01-02T19:47:11.925-05:00We made the plunge Anon 7:33... let me know if you...We made the plunge Anon 7:33... let me know if you wanna discuss.amlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-62397934910892063752010-01-02T19:33:46.652-05:002010-01-02T19:33:46.652-05:00Thinking long and hard about public school these d...Thinking long and hard about public school these days.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10328114207637065902010-01-02T19:22:40.158-05:002010-01-02T19:22:40.158-05:00The reason why splitting tuition assistance from t...The reason why splitting tuition assistance from the schools won't happen is because of the mentality that Anonymous 12:42 espouses: "the mission of day schools, which is that every Jewish child should receive a Jewish education, no matter what his or her parents can afford. It is a system with a mission built in."<br /><br />It's time to separate the mission from the school. The goal of a school - and its board - should be to educate children in a cost-effective manner. That means cutting back on vice principals of English and vice principals of Hebrew. That means eliminating all tuition breaks for staff (and paying better salaries if the market demands it). An alternative might be allowing staff tuition breaks, but only for full time staff (i.e., hire a smaller number of full time teachers at higher salaries rather than multiple part time teachers, each of whom gets a tuition break).<br /><br />The goal of a separate tzedaka organization should be to ensure that as many children as possible get a Jewish education. With lower costs at the schools, many people who need scholarships today will not need them any more. Our young adults choosing a career path will have a clear idea of what is required of them (I hear all the time, "Nobody can pay tuition, I'll just get scholarships"). But with a different mandate than the individual schools, this organization will have the opportunity to optimize its funds by providing scholarships only to the lower cost, more efficient schools (and if that doesn't meet the parents' specific hashkafa, tough. It's tzedaka). However, the reason this is so dangerous to the status quo is that it will become abundantly clear if the community can raise enough money to cover everyone who wants to send their kids to day schools. It may not be possible. At that point, this organization will be forced to fund after school programs and tutoring, which are badly needed but don't have Rabbinic support today because the fear is that anything that legitimizes public school in any form is assur, as it siphons kids away from the day schools. Which is going to happen anyway if tuition costs don't start falling.Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80696971036230906992010-01-02T19:19:59.842-05:002010-01-02T19:19:59.842-05:00The folllowing is my 5 day plan for Noam, YNJ and ...The folllowing is my 5 day plan for Noam, YNJ and Yavenh to lower tuition by 50% by the end of the week:<br /><br />Monday 1/4/10: Fire all the assistant teachers except for those in nursery and pre-k<br /><br />Tuesday 1/5/10 - Fire all the administrators except for 1 per school (not 1 for hebrew, 1 for english, 1 for pre-school, 1 for special ed.....)<br /><br />Wednesday 1/6/ - fire all the secretaries except for 1 secretary for the main office and 1 secretary for the business office. Included in this firing is gym teachers, computer teachers, librarians etc... Mommies of children on scholarship will fill in these roles.<br /><br />Thursday 1/7/10 - Combine classes so that some children learn english in the morning and hebrew in the afternoon. This will allow us to fire lots of teachers thereby cutting down on waste. Don't worry, your kid will be just as "frum" even if he learns hebrew in the afternoon.<br /><br />Friday 1/8/10 - Eliminate all scholarships for all families who have housekeepers, drive cars that are worth more than $15k, go out to eat more than once every 6 months, send their kids to camp, do renovations of any type in their house, give charity to any organization while their kids are on scholarship, and the list goes on and on.<br /><br />If the Bergen County schools take these simple steps we can all go into Shabbos a great deal happier next week.<br /><br />Gut Vach to all.Shalomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70432908898688356622010-01-01T16:07:15.208-05:002010-01-01T16:07:15.208-05:00The local Rabbis in Teaneck don't really care....The local Rabbis in Teaneck don't really care. Trust me. I know what I am talking about. They simply do not care. That is all I can say on that issue without revealing my identity.<br /><br />Having said that, there are some basic solutions that full-tuition paying parents can take that will have immediate impact; but it involves organization and a willingness to do something bold. For example we must demand an end to:<br />1) having more than 1 teacher in a classroom (except for your nursery and pre-k of course)<br />2) having some children learn hebrew subjects in the afternoon and english in the morning as this will drastically cut down on the payroll<br />3) cease treating our yeshivas as the local employment agency for mommys who want to teach there a few hours a week so that there kids go for free or at a heavily subsidized rate<br />4) stop giving scholarships; force parents who can't afford tuition to raise the money privately.<br />5) At the very least, if step 4 is too radical, then eliminate scholarship abuse. This means that you are not allowed a scholarship if you have any of the following: a house worth more than $450k, a car worth more than $15k, you are not permitted any vacations and quite frankly I don't even want to see you put meat in your chulent.<br />6) There should be one and only one administrator in a school. We don't need 4-5 administrators each presu,ably making six-figure salaries.<br /><br />Finally, please do not give a penny to NNJKIDS. NNJKIDS is nothing more than a bandaid that will make the patient suffer longer. We need the patient to bleed out and die so that we can start from scratch and build a local yeshiva that the average family can afford. It is absolutely sickening that you need to make well over $200-250k to be able to pay tuition for 2-3 kids. If you have 4 or more kids than you likely are on scholarship unless you are making serious money. (And please don't nit pick if I am a little off on these numbers. The point is that you need to make more than 99% of the population to make ends meet b\c of yeshiva tuition.)<br />I hope these administrators know that it is on their heads that so many jewish souls will not be born because of the tuition they charge. I suspect that G-d will hold them accountable in the Next World for the pain and suffering they are causing all of us.Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81540282869946689792010-01-01T15:55:38.306-05:002010-01-01T15:55:38.306-05:00The first thing you should do is completely separa...<i>The first thing you should do is completely separate the school/tuition part from the charity/scholarship part. The school will determine what the tuition needs to be, and it will be a fixed amount for all. A separate organization, having nothing to do with the school (yes, it must have different board members, etc) will decide how much charity to dole out to the families that request such charity. And the community, plus external fundraising if possible, will fund that organization.</i><br /><br />This is the most useful suggestion made in this entire thread. It's practical--it can actually be done--and it would have a large, positive effect. Nor does it require radical changes or leaps of faith into untested schooling systems. It's a good idea that would work. Not perfect, though; there would be losers in such a system, and some unpleasant artifacts, but the overall effect would be good.<br /><br />Which is why it will never happen. <i><b>I'm not joking.</b></i> The frum world is so dysfunctional, full of special- and self-interest in the status quo, economically lopsided, and ideologically blinkered that we will more likely experience a painful implosion and difficult rebuilding than smart, effective, and preemptive action to the inevitable.<br /><br />It's hopeless. The disasters (yes, plural) are going to happen, one after another, while the frum world talks and talks itself into hysteria, but dpes nothing until the time for that action has long passed. In some cases we've already gotten there.Cassandranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-87872419371148666512010-01-01T15:31:28.506-05:002010-01-01T15:31:28.506-05:00Tesyaa asked whether it is ethical to use a minyan...Tesyaa asked whether it is ethical to use a minyan and not contribute to a shul through dues or any other way.<br /><br />An ethical arrangement, whatever ethical might be, could be set up on this point. The details of it would just be speculation at this point, but there's no reason why we couldn't support a shul to a reasonable extent.<br /><br />But if you're asking whether I'll ever be in a financial position to single-handedly pay for the inscription of a sefer torah? Ha. Not in this lifetime, unless you have a knack for lottery numbers and can help me out with some insight!Aspiring Fathernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-35282268213940554352010-01-01T15:26:19.516-05:002010-01-01T15:26:19.516-05:00Is it right to use a minyan and not contribute to ...Is it right to use a minyan and not contribute to a shul through dues or any other way? Maybe temporarily, but on a permanent basis, is this ethical?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39952829205061997602010-01-01T15:05:32.691-05:002010-01-01T15:05:32.691-05:00Tesyaa indicated that it's too bad that I need...Tesyaa indicated that it's too bad that I need to live in a town without a Jewish community, due both to finances and the derekh eretz in which I want to raise kids (that is to say "Torah Im Derekh Eretz" with a normal American derekh eretz rather than an Academic Achievement Und Kareer Und Haus Und Automobile Uber Alles derekh eretz).<br /><br />In response, I should make it clear what my rough goal is: I have a specific town in mind that is immediately adjacent to (borders on) a very, very thoroughly Jewish town. This is significantly far away from the New York area. I'd prefer not to be geographically specific beyond that.<br /><br />The town that I have in mind (indeed, it's the town that I grew up in, but there are other similar towns also nearby) has no significant Jewish presence--no shuls. However, the town next door has more shuls than it has churches. It has multiple Orthodox shuls, each with daily minyanim. While I prefer an Orthodox shul when I go to one, that town also has a wide variety of other shuls as well. All of this in a town that nobody could mistake for a city.<br /><br />Now, I can't raise a family in the Jewish town. That's out of the question due to both the preposterously high cost of living in that town, and the derekh eretz that prevails in that town. But it has all of the resources.<br /><br />My goal is to live one town away from all of those resources and use every bit of them that I am able. No regular shabbos at one of the shuls? Fine, I'll take the kids, myself, to minyan most nights or most mornings. Kosher food won't be a problem at all. From the house I grew up in, it is less than 10 minutes to the mikveh in the Jewish town. And tutoring? More rabbis, with more hashkafas, in the town next door than in any town of comparable size in this country.<br /><br />Some of you may know the town that I'm referring to--it's a rather unique phenomenon. My goal is not to live in isolation from the Jewish community. My goal is to live near the Jewish community, but not in the Jewish community. I have to believe that it is possible to make such a setup work.Aspiring Fathernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36829822349260973832010-01-01T14:57:36.580-05:002010-01-01T14:57:36.580-05:00In response to Mark, who is concerned that there a...In response to Mark, who is concerned that there are too many administrators, etc in the day schools. FYI, I am Anonymous 12:42. Apparently Aspiring Father and I are now infamous on this site...<br /><br />“I know for an absolute fact that this is untrue for at least 4 schools.”<br /><br />Do you live in the NY-met area? That’s the only explanation I can think of. It’s not like that in the Midwest. <br /><br />“The first thing you should do is completely separate the school/tuition part from the charity/scholarship part.”<br /><br />In the school where I work, and the surrounding ones, it IS a separate organization. In fact, that organization is not even in the same state, let alone community. This is done for anonymity. The problem is that people appeal their allotted scholarships and, as someone else on this blog rightfully said, they abuse it. Many of these people are not living within their means. They cannot afford the houses and the “toys” they purchase and their actual income is belied by the lifestyle they live. So, while the tuition assistance organization may be looking at salaries on paper, what they’re not taking into account is extreme lifestyles and irresponsibility. Day school is a choice, and an expensive one. If it's a priority, then other things shouold not be.<br /><br />“What else should you do? Well, at some point you are going to have to decide if you are a prep school or a yeshiva.” <br /><br />So are you willing to give your kids a second rate secular education? I’m not, and I doubt your cohorts are. Especially since they’re being asked to go into professions that can accommodate sending their kids to tuition. Last time I checked, the “which ivy league school are you going to?” game was alive and well at most MO Jewish high schools. Less so in the Midwest, but still.<br /><br />“What kind of statement is this? Of course they are not learning Judaism, it's a public school, and religion is not permitted!!!”<br /><br />It’s a statement of fact, nothing more. For people who are looking at charter schools as an alternative to day school, they should know it is not a way to give your kid a Jewish education. Diversity, yes. Hebrew, yes. No tuition, yes. But if the Jewish education piece is not important, then this whole conversation is irrelevant anyway.<br /><br />“I won't blame them if you can explain to me why we need so many of them (the administrators).”<br /><br />As I said, I don’t know where you live. It’s simply not the reality here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23895365846022153982010-01-01T13:29:38.178-05:002010-01-01T13:29:38.178-05:00Think we will get to 300 comments before Shabbos?Think we will get to 300 comments before Shabbos?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com