tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post9188292108061452524..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11333488292319277682009-12-15T22:26:42.003-05:002009-12-15T22:26:42.003-05:00Does everyone remember when MO Rabbis started remi...Does everyone remember when MO Rabbis started reminding the klal to to be more modest in their wedding celebrations? That took guts right?<br /><br />How about some Rabbinic leaders take a real gutsy position and advocate that the schools only spend what people can afford so that many people can start to afford full tuition? Yes, they would get slack from some people, but wouldn't that be brave of them?UAGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89900996874262788212009-12-14T17:09:05.370-05:002009-12-14T17:09:05.370-05:00Tesyaa,
Well, there are some who are happy to hav...Tesyaa,<br /><br />Well, there are some who are happy to have their kids benefit at others' expense, and others who would be very happy if the tuition were reduced enough so that they would be able to afford to pay full tuition and not have to ask for a break. I am confident that among both those who pay a reduced tuition and those who pay full tuition, their are some parents who would favor large class sizes and lower tuition, and others who prefer the smaller class sizes.Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46749283082256109322009-12-14T15:48:07.827-05:002009-12-14T15:48:07.827-05:00"Bklynmom" - Of course many people on sc..."Bklynmom" - Of course many people on scholarship still have trouble making ends meet and paying reduced tuition (that is a given). However, having said that, if they are only paying 50% of tuition, why would they be interested in having their kids be guinea pigs at a startup school whose list tuition is 50% of the prevailing rate at the other schools? My point is that they have no incentive to join b\c they already are paying the same tuition as would be charged at the new "no frills" school. <br /><br />On a side note, I also belive that "other forces" were at work in making sure that a low-cost yeshiva did not get off the ground in Bergen County. Maybe when I have a bit more time, I will post a comment on this.Josephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11865324475177360112009-12-14T15:19:51.616-05:002009-12-14T15:19:51.616-05:00There are plenty of families who receive tuition a...There are plenty of families who receive tuition assistance but still have to pay more than they can comfortably afford. And a great many families who can and do pay full tuition are squeezed by it. While I do think the reasons you state play a role in why some families were not interested in a low-cost yeshiva, I think other forces are also at work. I do not know what those forces are. I do know, however, that two of my children attend a moderately-priced, "no-frills" yeshiva and are receiving a fine education.Bklynmomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25471775106987488882009-12-14T12:58:31.961-05:002009-12-14T12:58:31.961-05:00Tesyaa - I couldn't agree with you more. In ...Tesyaa - I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, that is why we had trouble getting a low-cost Yeshiva off the ground in Bergen County - lack of interest!!!! The rich people are happy paying the crazy tuition and all the people on scholarship weren't interested in a low-cost yeshiva since all the local yeshivahs already are low cost for them since they are on scholarship.Josephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-27751464968591859232009-12-14T12:46:34.755-05:002009-12-14T12:46:34.755-05:00Mike S:
If a parent was receiving tuition assista...Mike S:<br /><br />If a parent was receiving tuition assistance and the proposal was to raise class size and lower tuition, do you think that parent would be jumping for joy? It's unlikely that they would get to pay less, yet their kids' benefits would be cut. Don't you see the problem, that it's not just that some are strapped and some can afford everything, but some can afford small class sizes on another person's dime?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89731433829532140022009-12-14T12:28:00.953-05:002009-12-14T12:28:00.953-05:00Well you can argue all you want about class size. ...Well you can argue all you want about class size. I know in my kids' school, if they proposed to raise the class size and lower the tuition proportionately, part of the parent body would jump for joy, and part of the parent body would scream bloody murder. Because some are struggling to pay the bills and others are able and happy to pay for the small class sizes and extra attentionfor their kids. Each school has to make its choice; you can't satisfy everyone. <br /><br />It is true that senior positions in government pay far less than they do in the private sector. (Although you are comparing the salary + benefits + expencse account of the Frisch principal to the salary of the NYC school chancellor--he gets benefits and an expense account, too) Which is one factor that contributes to the revolving door with its attendent problems. Mid-level jobs tend to pay better in government. 11% of NYC teachers make over $100K; I doubt that is true in any yeshivah or day school. I am not sure whether the public schools or private sector is a more relevant comparison for a Jewish day school, but I don't see how you can say the numbers are completely unreasonable--they aren't.Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-56381548666171802432009-12-14T11:23:10.209-05:002009-12-14T11:23:10.209-05:00I wonder whether any of the people writing here ha...I wonder whether any of the people writing here have learned Shaar Ha'Bitachon in the classic Chovos Ha'Levavos written by a Rishon. <br /><br />He says that someone who has bitachon does not expect that profit or loss will accrue to him unless G-d wishes it to. For the person who has bitachon there is a disconnect in his mind between what he does to earn money and the money he earns. He goes through the motions of earning a parnassa because he is supposed to, but he does not believe that it is his efforts that are earning him the money.<br /><br />Sounds to me like the comments here and elsewhere on this blog are all about "kochi v'otzem yadi" - "my strength and the power of my hand have made me my fortune." I am not reading statements that express the belief that Hashem decrees on Rosh Hashana how much a person will earn in the coming year or any statements of bitachon whatsoever. <br /><br />I'm not reading statements here that express the belief that no matter how good an education one gets, how much effort a person expends on earning a parnassa, or how wise an investor and planner a person is, the only determinant as to how much he will earn is what Hashem decides.<br /><br />I wonder what the writers here would have said if they were living in the desert with Moses and Moses said to them: Hashem says that when you enter Israel you shall let the land lie fallow for an entire year and G-d will bless you so that you have plenty to eat in the 6th, 7th, and the year following the Shemitta year.<br /><br />I'm afraid that in line with the comments here, the "Desert Blog" would have comments like:<br /><br />He's gotta be kidding! How absurd! Farmers are not allowed to work their land for an entire year?! That's suicidal!<br /><br />For that matter, the "Desert Blog" would also have comments bemoaning the halacha that there could be no saving up of the manna. You got what you needed for that day and that was it. Nothing in the pantry or fridge. Nothing in the bank. This went on for 40 years and a portion of manna was preserved so that hundreds of years later it was shown to the Jewish people and they were told that Hashem would provide for them just as He did for their ancestors in the desert.Critiquerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14788007492647988964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-75769331064645544432009-12-14T10:53:05.958-05:002009-12-14T10:53:05.958-05:00In addition, there is no reason to have only 15 ki...In addition, there is no reason to have only 15 kids in a high school class if that means that tuition will be unaffordable to 90-95% of people. Why not have 25 kids in a class (like what used to be the case), cap the number of administrators and their salaries? This would go a long way towards beginning to solve the tuition crises.Josephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-42857550750529011112009-12-14T10:04:58.335-05:002009-12-14T10:04:58.335-05:00Mike,
This isn't the "private sector&quo...Mike,<br /><br />This isn't the "private sector" it's education. Lawyers at big name firms have a starting salary of $160,000. They are generally required to be in the office about 70 hours a week, figure about 10am till midnight most nights. That's about half of what this principal is getting.<br /><br />On second thought, I don't even know why I brought up a lawyer other than to comment on your "private sector" comment.<br /><br />The real comparison is in education.<br /><br />In NYC, which has very good teacher compensation, a teacher with 8 years experience and a master's degree makes $75k.<br /><br />The head of the entire NYC public school system makes $250,000.<br /><br />It's not apples and apples to say a CEO in private sector can make $500K or whatever. Look at education and see what teachers and administrators could make in public schools. Then compare that to what some of these teachers and and administrators make in yeshivas.<br /><br />Chancellor of all of NYC public schools makes $250,000 and the principal of Frisch makes $350,000 when you factor in other compensation and expense accounts? Come on.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51974177206729280962009-12-13T23:59:00.113-05:002009-12-13T23:59:00.113-05:00Ariella writes: just when you think, "it can&...Ariella writes: <i>just when you think, "it can't get any lower than this," someone comes up with something that does.</i><br />It is truly incredible.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-21837439508868025402009-12-13T19:48:07.006-05:002009-12-13T19:48:07.006-05:00That's terrific. Sounds like you would prefer ...<i>That's terrific. Sounds like you would prefer seeing her sitting outside her house doing nothing like so many seniors do in BP. </i><br /><br />BaltimoreYid specifically said she does NOT enjoy the job and does it only for the money. I agree that it is in the best interests for seniors to stay active. <br /><br /><i>"Bitachon is baloney?" </i> Of course bitachon isn't baloney and few commentors would say so. But in terms of how we approach the issues of earning a parnassah and preparing for the future, chazal was fairly clear we don't rely on miracles. More modern day chachamin such as the Ben Ish Hai actually says that a wise man saves 50%. Hopefully I can quote the source in a later post. I think there is plenty out there to support planning ahead.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-7958866552100086782009-12-13T18:47:31.668-05:002009-12-13T18:47:31.668-05:00Can someone explain to me why a high school princi...Can someone explain to me why a high school principal needs an expense account? Is the quarter million salary not enough? Am i the only one who thinks this is an outrage?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-68188703927728707422009-12-13T16:42:59.687-05:002009-12-13T16:42:59.687-05:00Actually the Frisch numbers seem quire reasonable ...Actually the Frisch numbers seem quire reasonable to me. The principal has a $247,000 salary plus benefits to run a $16M school (according to the 2008 form 991) In the private sector a manager of that big a business unit would probably be making twice that. And I don't know the qualifications of the science department chair, but I pay freshly minted PhD scientists a package that is bigger than his (or hers, as the case may be.)<br /><br /><br />I see nothing obscene or ridiculous about it at all. These people are as entitled as anyone else to a market wage. Sure it is hard to pay the tuition. That's why everywhere but the Jewish community, private school is considered a luxury and most families in the schools have 1-3 kids. A normal multiplier for an efficiently run labor intensive business like a school is about 3-4 times direct salary--i.e. a classroom should bring in 3 times the teacher's salary. If a full time teacher is making $60K that would mean around $200K. If Frisch collects the 2/3 of the nominal tuition that my kids' school does, and the tuition is $21K that would correspond to a class size of 15 per classroom. Don't know if that is in fact their class size. but it doesn't seem crazy.Mike S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-22434830840338248462009-12-13T16:04:16.873-05:002009-12-13T16:04:16.873-05:00"My 78 yo aunt in Boro Park (ir HaKodesh, lol...<i>"My 78 yo aunt in Boro Park (ir HaKodesh, lol) still works as a secretary. "</i><br /><br />That's terrific. Sounds like you would prefer seeing her sitting outside her house doing nothing like so many seniors do in BP. The tremendous decline so many experiece upon retirement is reason enough to keep active.<br /><br /><i>"To go back to the tzedakah appeal. The ideas - trust in Hashem, giving tzedakah as the best investment - were what we were taught as small children in my Bais Yaakov. Many stories about pious men who had magical windfalls as a reward for their tzidkus (saintliness). But these were stories for children."</i><br /><br />This is just the kind of comment that makes me wonder whether this blog is for frum people or not. Bitachon is baloney? All the statements throughout Tanach, Chazal, the Rishonim etc. are stories for children? Sounds like heresy to me. I really wish that anti-Torah, anti-Orthodox comments were deleted from this blog so frum people will feel comfortable here. Or is this blog meant for irreligious, frum-hating people?Yehudisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70523489774985246942009-12-11T17:05:12.568-05:002009-12-11T17:05:12.568-05:00Tasteless and irresponsible.
And probably forbidd...<i>Tasteless and irresponsible.</i><br /><br />And probably forbidden (Assur) as well under the rule that one may not put oneself in a situation in which one will require communal tzedaka in the future. And that is EXACTLY what not saving for retirement does.<br /><br />Shabbat Shalom and Chanukah Sameach everyone.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-17421539581338393762009-12-11T15:34:53.619-05:002009-12-11T15:34:53.619-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.EPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-5519403408257604342009-12-11T11:58:52.909-05:002009-12-11T11:58:52.909-05:00About $1.4 Million Dollars per year for the top 8 ...About $1.4 Million Dollars per year for the top 8 employees.<br /><br />Not bad, Frisch. Not bad.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60077359693563026012009-12-11T11:55:54.266-05:002009-12-11T11:55:54.266-05:00Well, Frisch posts data, This is from 2008:
1st ...Well, Frisch posts data, This is from 2008:<br /><br />1st number is compensation, 2nd number is contributions to employee benefit / deferred compensation<br /><br />Officers and Directors:<br /><br />Principal: $247,732 + 43,037 + 54,000 (expense account)<br /><br />Executive Director: $139,705 + $47,418<br /><br />Director of Finance: $128,960 + $3,383<br /><br />Top 5 highest paid employees other than above:<br /><br />Director Student Life: $101,113 + $87,328<br /><br />Associate Principal: $130,991 + $18,392<br /><br />Associate Principal: $110,250 + $25,130<br /><br />Associate Principal: $76,147 + $57,654<br /><br />Chair Science Department: $117,489 + $11,761<br /><br />They claim 0 other employees are paid over $50,000. (I doubt it).<br /><br />Tuition:<br />Annual Tuition per student: $21,250<br />Annual family obligation: $750<br /><br />One time capital fund assessment per family: $2,500<br /><br />One time building find assessment: $2,500<br /><br />Obscene and ridiculous.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-76353256491591955992009-12-11T11:47:23.476-05:002009-12-11T11:47:23.476-05:00Anon, actually now it's much easier to get Med...Anon, actually now it's much easier to get Medicaid for NH and still hang on to a lot of assets. The spend down requirements have been loosened considerably.<br /><br />But yes, I too wonder about people who have one political orientation and suddenly have self-serving reasons to switch their allegiance. The desire for big government programs plus low taxes is causing big problems for the country and the next generation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-35087798773444290392009-12-11T11:40:27.788-05:002009-12-11T11:40:27.788-05:00I work in the nursing home industry.You can not im...I work in the nursing home industry.You can not imagine the efforts people make to ensure that they (officially)DO NOT have money in order to have to have the government pay for their, or their parents stay.On another note seeing this being done by people who for decades were busy railing against 'those kollel people on programs' has dramatically altered my viewpoint towards both programs and the people who rail against them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72305876066613539312009-12-11T11:25:58.902-05:002009-12-11T11:25:58.902-05:00Joseph, we are in the exact same boat. I am sick ...Joseph, we are in the exact same boat. I am sick to death of paying for extra assistant principals and mechanchos and assistant nursery directors. Not to mention rebbe's wives installed as secretaries. I'd love to threaten to leave, and public school doesn't bother me one bit, but my husband would have a problem with that. If your wife doesn't have a problem with it, I say go for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-21905616823691295482009-12-11T10:46:07.692-05:002009-12-11T10:46:07.692-05:00I went to Guide Star website and came up empty as ...I went to Guide Star website and came up empty as to finding any substantive info on any of the 4 MO major dayschools in the area where I live. What a scam these dayschool administrators are running at our expense. I wish they were more outrage but most people don't care because 1) they make enough money where the high tuition doesn't really hurt them that much; 2) they don't make that much money so they are on scholarship OR 3) their wives work at the school so they go for free or at a heavy discount. This leaves very few people like me who make enough where I can't get a scholarship, I don't make enough where the tuition doesn't really hurt me, and my wife does not work by any of local yeshivahs. If enough of us who pay full tuition would threaten to pull our kids of of these schools we could finally force these schools to lower tuition. The cost per kid at the local dayschools ranges from $15-17k a year per kid. Who has that kind of money????Josephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-998789836960587952009-12-11T07:55:17.641-05:002009-12-11T07:55:17.641-05:00Miami,
Religous schools need not publish their 99...Miami,<br /><br />Religous schools need not publish their 990's, and religous orgs that do publish their 990's hide behind the Parsonage to make it appear that they are paid less.DAGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09475799835170867139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85193846356044760722009-12-11T03:51:02.179-05:002009-12-11T03:51:02.179-05:00You know if there was any level of mechanical know...You know if there was any level of mechanical know how in the frum world I would expect a long line of designs for Perpetual Motion machines and the like. <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motionZach Kessinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04276155117746098546noreply@blogger.com