tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post2283382874830856860..comments2024-02-21T05:24:49.494-05:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-60580258940159725992008-11-27T20:43:00.000-05:002008-11-27T20:43:00.000-05:00"The real problem is not the test so much as the b..."The real problem is not the test so much as the blatant ignorance of the people who make decisions in school who don't understand standard deviation and statistical variance. Thus, if a child's score on an IQ test is even a couple of points short of 100, they will label that child below average. Even a very elementary math course would clarify that 100 as average comprises a range from the 90's to a bit above 100. A child with a score of 95 could prove to be an even better student than a child with a score of 110."<BR/><BR/>You seem to be confusing standard deviation and variance with reliability. Test-retest reliability tells you the number of points someone might vary by if they took the test again. However given that iq is a normal distribution with a standard deviation of about 15 or 16, a score of 100 puts you at the fiftieth percentile, a score of 115 puts you at over thirty percentile points higher! The fifteen point difference is a big difference in where they stand relative to others.<BR/>Also, bear in mind that the average ashkenazi IQ is 115, a full SD above the usual average. So a child who scores below 100 is at the average for the national population, but a full SD below the average ashkenazi student.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-78558455137287060362008-11-21T13:33:00.000-05:002008-11-21T13:33:00.000-05:00Mine also is slowly trying. (and doing ummm an aw...Mine also is slowly trying. (and doing ummm an awfully awkward job at it, but I am still proud of them) We're getting a new kosher dining hall next year in addtion the the kosher dining station we have now! Go University of Chicago Maroons!!! (I realize this is an odd school to have practically no Jewish undergraduates, but they all want to cut town *shrug* A bunch come back for grad school, but none live in the area.)<BR/><BR/>Though from what I have heard, Vandy also really wanted to attract Jewish Students as well. They build a new hillel in the center of campus....<BR/><BR/>As for working moms not being full time moms. That's a weird though. You are a full time mom even if you have a full time job. Just like you are a full time Dad if you have a full time Job. What that means varies from person to person.<BR/><BR/>And this is not about going on vacation. This is about the cost of meat, fresh vegetables, and tuition, and a house. Estimates out there put the cost of being able to do so if you have 3 kids at around 100 grand. No savings. Nothing.<BR/>To put this in perspective, the median salary for a lawyer practicing for 9 years (many lawyers drop out) doesn't hit that mark. It is 88,390, with a good chunk probably lower (the mode starting salary is actually on par with a college grad, 42,000) The 60,000 mark for a lawyer is a mid tier firm in a medium size city- or an average job that a good, well educated frum yid could hope to get.<BR/><BR/>You will need a second equal salary to make the cut. You will need a second equal salary to make ends meet.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As for mom's outside the house- they volunteer- they are social with the community. People are not designed to stand their like statues....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-45440573353031639812008-11-18T17:26:00.000-05:002008-11-18T17:26:00.000-05:00"Plus, certain schools are now competing for ..."Plus, certain schools are now competing for frum kids, some of which would surprise you."<BR/><BR/>You should, of course, list some of them. Off the top of my head, Washington & Lee in VA is pushing heavily for Jews. Franklin Marshall in central PA has a small Jewish community but includes a full kosher meal plan (and they're real meals, not airline ones). There are definitely others as well out there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19269098115113230052008-11-17T21:32:00.000-05:002008-11-17T21:32:00.000-05:00Love this site. Nothing like it. Thanks all for ...Love this site. Nothing like it. Thanks all for the meaty conversation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-68593756341774926152008-11-17T13:30:00.000-05:002008-11-17T13:30:00.000-05:00"Most of the successful parents I knew, even if th..."Most of the successful parents I knew, even if the mother wasn't working, was still out of the house."<BR/><BR/>What's the successful mother doing out of the house if she's not working? <BR/><BR/>Also, your definition of successful might not match every other MO woman's definition. There are people who prefer doing without Pesach in Florida, a new car every other year, or even living in the NY metro area so that one spouse can afford not to work or work part time. <BR/><BR/>My husband works 18 hour days so there was no way I could or would work a full time job that's even 8 hours a day. I work 5 hours, from home, very flexible so I am available for my children from 3:30 till bedtime. I could have moved up in the ranks of my company and taken a management position, but I chose not to because that would mean less flexibility and less time with my children. The money isn't worth the stress to me. I make enough money working part time to make a significant enough contribution.<BR/><BR/>Apparently I'm not alone in this thinking because <A HREF="http://www.hiremymom.com/home" REL="nofollow">this website</A> is apparently very popular.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-87704523893154587722008-11-17T11:23:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:23:00.000-05:00anon: my degree is in English Literature which doe...anon: my degree is in English Literature which doesn't help much... I've been working part-time since I got married to keep up a resume - part time being 5-8 hours a week. <BR/><BR/>I agree that if you leave the market, you do lose your place, but you can recover, and having skills to begin with is the only way you'll have skills later.<BR/><BR/>That said, if you plan to be a full-time mom, maybe med school isn't the right choice for you.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25170563687459934792008-11-17T11:04:00.000-05:002008-11-17T11:04:00.000-05:00trilcat, it's that first foot in the door that is ...trilcat, it's that first foot in the door that is SO hard. I speak from experience. After 9 years as a stay at home mother, the only reason I was able to go back to work was because I had finished all the actuarial exams and had decent work experience on my resume. And I took a job below the level I had left 9 years before. It's true that within 18 months I received a promotion, but I think I'm still underpaid due to the time off. But how does someone with less qualifications even get the foot in the door? I'm not bragging about my great qualifications, but having a recognized professional credential (as opposed to a degree) helped a lot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-31197866026533873852008-11-17T10:20:00.000-05:002008-11-17T10:20:00.000-05:00shanamaidel: many educated women who are full-time...shanamaidel: many educated women who are full-time moms manage to keep in the game in various ways. I'm certain that MII could land a job quickly and easily even if it isn't the kind of job that she could have had if she'd had a career the past x number of years. A college education never disappears, nor does basic aptitude.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-61980974003005740472008-11-17T08:16:00.000-05:002008-11-17T08:16:00.000-05:00You make it sound like it is the ultimate goal, fo...You make it sound like it is the ultimate goal, for male or female, to be an officer in a Fortune 500 company (tuition needs notwithstanding). <BR/><BR/>"And Yes, Mother In Israel, they will look at the gap. You've not kept with the game in the time you've taken off."<BR/>Thanks for the warning.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-67338766470340700512008-11-17T00:28:00.000-05:002008-11-17T00:28:00.000-05:00About those MO college girls:A) Ivy and Ivy-level ...About those MO college girls:<BR/><BR/>A) Ivy and Ivy-level finacial aid, depending on the family, can be huge. I'm surprised more families with "those sort of kids" are not applying, because for the right sort of parents, the financial aid packages can be extremely generous, more generous than at state school. Plus, certain schools are now competing for frum kids, some of which would surprise you.<BR/><BR/>B)A good chunk of my married friends give off the impression of too young, including the ones with babies. They seem to lack to feeling of "How to struggle with choices." Some of them go with the flow a little too much.<BR/><BR/>C) Unlike anonymous, I disagree that the guys are making enough long term. Money is a little bit of an out there topic to them, and they do not have the training to fully understand how it works. A good chunk of my parent's neighborhood was bought out with minimum down payments by parents and grandparents, not children. There also is very little understanding of how the "goyish" world works, because very few of them have non-Jewish peer friends in college (for those who do not go to YU/Stern)<BR/>D) Orthodox Jewish women, across the spectrum, have more children than the national average, and definitely more than the Jewish average. Modern Orthodox women could only do so if they dropped out of the job or work part time, which inherently is a problem, because it creates job instabilities. One of the major reasons their college educated peers get married comparably late is because it is impossible to get a career really established enough to not get fully Mommy-tracked until you are say, 30.<BR/><BR/>Even with that, I will tell you something, you look at the top officers at fortune 500s, equity and non-equity partners at the top law and accounting firms: almost none of them are women, and of those, very few have children. I doubt if they have, their husband have high powered jobs,and that they have 4-5 children.<BR/><BR/>Jobs take time- so do children.<BR/><BR/>And Yes, Mother In Israel, they will look at the gap. You've not kept with the game in the time you've taken off.<BR/><BR/>The "easy" path for MO women is to not work, or to do low skill jobs.<BR/><BR/>Long term: It won't work. Most of the successful parents I knew, even if the mother wasn't working, was still out of the house. Better to bring home money- and stop thinking of it as his/her cash, as a model to make it ok to get women to work who need to work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46099336766648261882008-11-16T18:21:00.000-05:002008-11-16T18:21:00.000-05:00just a thought about the preschool psychology "int...just a thought about the preschool psychology "interview". Inappropriate for the child to be "interviewed"; the psychologist's place in preschool evaluation is in the expertise to administer and score certain standardized tests, the knowledge to evaluate what those scores mean (statistically for the population cohort and for this individual child) and to ascertain the child's maturity and readiness for school based on those results - only in a limited way supplementing that information with observation of the child during the testing period. Getting the child to speak to you in the context of administering the tests is a skill borne of experience and training. Charging $200 for an "interview" of a 4 year old is absurd and useless. PS I am a New York State licensed psychologist from a "real" school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23018768481164491712008-11-16T09:29:00.000-05:002008-11-16T09:29:00.000-05:00As one who "threw my degree away" to become a moth...As one who "threw my degree away" to become a mother, I don't think it was a waste. Nor did my parents--they valued education for its own sake. And the people and organizations who have benefited from my education and skills over the years, certainly did not. I am so grateful that my parents paid for my education and left me free to make my own choices in life. As for rejoining the career world as my children grow--again, my education gives me so many opportunities.<BR/>Anyway, now more than ever, there is no guarantee that a girl will get married, have children, stay married, or be able to rely on her husband's income.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46844462814548644102008-11-16T09:18:00.000-05:002008-11-16T09:18:00.000-05:00i live in the mo world and i have to tell you that...i live in the mo world and i have to tell you that i am seeing a large number of MO girls who went to frisch, ramaz etc who go to college, ( parents spend 40-0 k per year for stern barnard etc) these girls plan on a career sometimes med school etc, ) but they get married while in college and have a baby, and before you know it, 160K is down the toilet because they give up their former career plans.<BR/>in the MO, at least the husbands are getting jobs and making enough to support a family. <BR/>but these 'educated' women are basically throwing thier degrees away to become mothers. ( time will tell if they use their degrees in the future and return to the outside world)<BR/>im not saying it a bad thing, but if all you are going to do is finish college and raise a family, it seems like a big waste of money<BR/>as far as semianry is concerned, i dont think the year of "indepednece" is so real, since all they do is go from their paretns homes while in high school, spend a year in stern etc and then to a husband. and they still need support from their parents. how many of these girls actually go out and work and support themselves after college, have to budget, pay rent, and woory about coverting their expense. all the time having tuitin paid for by mommy an daddy. ( unless their get a stern scholarship-cause youre not getting one to the ivy leagues) they all seem to get married while still in stern or barnard. <BR/>( i my self have two nephews who married while still in college and thier wives who were premed or had big carrer dreams, had children wihtin a year and have settled down to become housewives. )<BR/>it strikes me that maybe college is a waste of time and money and that ( i never thought id say this- but maybe seminary or learning in israel instead of college might not be such a bad thing)<BR/>now however, with the bad financial sector, all of the teaneck/englewood kids will no longer have the pot of gold from the financial sector awaiting them after 4 years or less of real college. and longer graduate schools may have to be considered ie medical shcool law shchool etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32055873524393959692008-11-16T05:41:00.000-05:002008-11-16T05:41:00.000-05:00Getting back to the seminary question...There are ...Getting back to the seminary question...<BR/><BR/>There are two major segments of the jewish religious world that send their daughters to seminary in israel - the "yeshivish" and the MO. I am somewhere in the MO world, so I can not comment at all on the yeshivish seminary experience. (although i would presume that all the comments on YWN were from yeshivish parents who dont want to "waste" $20K on their daughters getting another year of learning. They just want to marry them off the next yr anyway and let them be secretaries...) <BR/>In the MO world, where ALL the girls are going to college afterwards at the tune of $8K (state schools) - $50K (Ivy) per year, another year of intensive learning, learning to live independantly, focusing on middot and growth and preparing them for the secular lifestyle in colleges is extremely worthwhile. As mentioned earlier, in many schools you will get college credit (obviously full credit in stern/touro, queens gives one semester, brooklyn gives a whole year...) <BR/>There is definitely a flaw in the MO day schools that their education is "incomplete" and they rely on this year in israel. but some of the blame is the immaturity of the students and not being able to think independantly from their family and lifestyles that they are in. in israel they are on their own, not overshadowed by their parents way of life, and able to make decisions and commitments to yiddishkeit that would have been impossible when they were younger or in their parents home. the vast majority of the girls come back with a greater commitment and appreciation of torah and yiddishkeit. thats is well worth $20K IMHO.<BR/>And don't blame the seminaries for these jacked up prices. in israel (and especially with the low dollar rate right now) rent, food, slaries are a FORTUNE. the schools want low teacher/student ratios - so yes there is a high amount of slaries to pay. but the $25/hour the teachers get paid is hardly excessive. their are tiyulim, shabatonim and many other expenses. the comments that ppl have made that the seminaries get rich off these girls is preposterous.<BR/>there are definitely reforms that can and should be made - the system is far from perfect. but seminary is still an essential part of a girls religious development.<BR/>(sorry for all the typos, my baby is crying and i'm trying to finish up this post. i know i'm a bad mother)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1767753171179173592008-11-16T02:41:00.000-05:002008-11-16T02:41:00.000-05:00MARK:i don't understand what you were responding t...<I>MARK:<BR/><BR/>i don't understand what you were responding to in my comment,</I><BR/><BR/>I was just responding to the general sentiment in your post.<BR/><BR/><I>but in any case,i agree 100% with this comment of yours:<BR/><BR/>"I don't know what people do when they only have one choice of Jewish Day School."<BR/><BR/>this the second biggest reason i would hesitate to leave the new york area. (the biggest reason is my mother-in-law would kill me.)<BR/><BR/>it's also a reason i cringe when people talk about combining schools to alleviate the "tuition crisis."<BR/><BR/>i understand the economic reasons for school consolidation, but it would only be to the detriment of kids and their parents</I><BR/><BR/>I am not so sure that school consolidation would solve anything. Do schools (today) with more students have lower tuitions than schools with fewer students? No.<BR/><BR/>The "problem" of high tuition has many more reasons behind it. It's been discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36435685600263262152008-11-16T02:34:00.000-05:002008-11-16T02:34:00.000-05:00i remember being tested by a school psych to get i...<I>i remember being tested by a school psych to get into kindergarten in YoF back in 1979 (holy crap that was a long time ago). but it was done in house.</I><BR/><BR/>Even more years before that (1971 or 1972), I was psychologically evaluated by Yeshiva of Flatbush for entry into third grade (I was attending Etz Chaim in Boro Park at the time) and they said I was too immature. They were right, and I still am (too immature), but it keeps me young :-) But regardless of being immature, I was a very good student throughout.<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-81663102868754447792008-11-13T20:57:00.000-05:002008-11-13T20:57:00.000-05:00Lion of Zion,I'm not sure whether the school regar...Lion of Zion,<BR/>I'm not sure whether the school regard the psychologists as "in house" or not. They have us make out checks separately for the testing, but they always use the same person, as far as I know - not an outsider from the district or such. Are they then independent contractors? But how independent are they when they depend on the school for the income to come from testing all the students?<BR/><BR/>I can tell you that I am less than impressed by the so-called experts I've encountered in yeshivas, and I'm sure many have earned full degrees. I did once have a far lengthier evaluation from someone from the district who admitted that parental education was a far more accurate predictor of academic success for a child than any of the areas tested, which could, at best, merely identify areas of relative strength and weakness.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-8529779330005731322008-11-13T17:29:00.000-05:002008-11-13T17:29:00.000-05:00MARK:i don't understand what you were responding t...MARK:<BR/><BR/>i don't understand what you were responding to in my comment, but in any case,i agree 100% with this comment of yours:<BR/><BR/>"I don't know what people do when they only have one choice of Jewish Day School."<BR/><BR/>this the second biggest reason i would hesitate to leave the new york area. (the biggest reason is my mother-in-law would kill me.)<BR/><BR/>it's also a reason i cringe when people talk about combining schools to alleviate the "tuition crisis."<BR/><BR/>i understand the economic reasons for school consolidation, but it would only be to the detriment of kids and their parentsLion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40493563433106551312008-11-13T17:27:00.000-05:002008-11-13T17:27:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16461704416107390982008-11-13T17:20:00.000-05:002008-11-13T17:20:00.000-05:00ARIELA:"the school psychologist test has become fa...ARIELA:<BR/><BR/>"the school psychologist test has become fairly standard in yeshivas"<BR/><BR/>i remember being tested by a school psych to get into kindergarten in YoF back in 1979 (holy crap that was a long time ago). but it was done in house.<BR/><BR/>the school my son started this year didn't require any sort of psych testing. should i worried about who his classmates are?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-26031863022752880162008-11-13T17:01:00.000-05:002008-11-13T17:01:00.000-05:00the school psychologist test has become fairly sta...the school psychologist test has become fairly standard in yeshivas, I believe. I know that Shulamith in the area requires it before acceptance and TAG administers it to students in Pre1A. What I find mildly annoying is that we are billed for the test ($80 at TAG a couple of years ago) but never get to see the results or any sort of discussion about it. I suppose this is an instance of "no news is good news."<BR/><BR/>The real problem is not the test so much as the blatant ignorance of the people who make decisions in school who don't understand standard deviation and statistical variance. Thus, if a child's score on an IQ test is even a couple of points short of 100, they will label that child below average. Even a very elementary math course would clarify that 100 as average comprises a range from the 90's to a bit above 100. A child with a score of 95 could prove to be an even better student than a child with a score of 110.<BR/><BR/>The fact is that though one of my children scored higher than the other, the one with the lower score has much better school habits, while the one with the higher score is prone to carelessness and is much weaker in Hebrew.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63668191457018368282008-11-13T14:23:00.000-05:002008-11-13T14:23:00.000-05:00uh huh. my son gets services at a local center. wh...<I>uh huh. my son gets services at a local center. when i first spoke to them i had a long list of things that i made it clear we would not put up with.<BR/><BR/>i hope my son won't need the services long term for two reasons. one is because i hope his issues resolve. the other reason is that once he hits school age he will be at the mercy of whichever agency has the contract to service the schools.</I><BR/><BR/>This is a big problem. A few years ago, when one of our daughters reached the age for first grade, we considered a few schools. All had interviews of some sort, but one school also required an interview by a psychologist. We took our daughter to the psychologist, and she wasn't able to get our daughter to speak much to her. Most of the topics were not covered, but she wrote a report anyway. We objected, but to no avail, and she also insisted that we pay her fee ($200 for about half an hour of nearly nothing) even to the extent of having a lawyer send us a letter. In the end we paid the bill because getting a lawyer to fight it would have cost us a lot more, and because we aren't fighters. BUT, we didn't send our daughter to that school, even when they specifically approached us before second grade to recruit her. Their loss because we pay full tuition of almost $14,000 a year for each of out children (and we have 5 children). The school is nearly out of business, I give them another year or two.<BR/><BR/>I don't know what people do when they only have one choice of Jewish Day School.<BR/><BR/>In my experience, it is very difficult to find a "good" psychologist, especially one well-suited for children. But there are good ones out there, and this is one case in which extended perseverance really does pay off.<BR/><BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-59205352248043605932008-11-13T12:40:00.000-05:002008-11-13T12:40:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-29874903089803160652008-11-13T12:30:00.000-05:002008-11-13T12:30:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-25588517898820763052008-11-13T12:29:00.000-05:002008-11-13T12:29:00.000-05:00Let's keep in mind that today a B.A. is totally wo...Let's keep in mind that today a B.A. is totally worthless. IMHO it is great that these girls can speedily finish their B.A.'s and get on to their Masters.<BR/>In my OT program there were more than 10 girls from Touro and they were all not a day older than 21 some younger...There was even someone who had gotten her B.A. through Empire State. She had only taken her science/lab classes at her local community college!!<BR/>I think a lot of new therapists need more experience, hence, seemingly not up to par... However, I would not say there is a differentiation between non/frum therapists.<BR/>It is not just about the theoretical learning, it is about giving oneself over to learn the 'tricks' of the trade in ones profession...<BR/>We should all be happy that these girls are encouraged to get their degrees and have a profession :)<BR/><BR/>SaraAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com