tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post5873943003189771710..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: (Link) It Feels So Good: After 22 Years. . . . Financial FreedomOrthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger112125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-64270580561818812742011-12-21T11:22:41.826-05:002011-12-21T11:22:41.826-05:00CJ -
Agreed, I was overly flip, since I am aware...CJ - <br /><br />Agreed, I was overly flip, since I am aware of the halachic literature on this. I'm sure Avraham Avinu paid Eliezer a pretty penny to shlep over to Charan and find Rivkah (nose rings FTW!). But even in the yeshivish circles my siblings run in, being set up involves parents and lists, not a professional matchmaker demanding four figure fees. Of course, if you are in a community where using such services is mandatory and the community cannot afford them, then the communal norms need to change.Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19885015596351140662011-12-20T12:34:03.071-05:002011-12-20T12:34:03.071-05:00"The vast majority of these cases are true ha...<i>"The vast majority of these cases are true hardship instances where the parents are at most guilty of assuming they could pay more than they could." - JS</i><br /><br />It's not just the frum community. As the mortgage "crisis" has shown us, the same accusation can be levelled at the United States at large. Many (most?) people commited to a lifestyle whose funding was beyond them, and didn't "discover" that tiny fact until it was too late.<br /><br />To paraphrase the poet: If one's reach does not exceed his grasp, then what's a bankruptcy court for?CJ Srullowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01851508109666827492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33487790771913709942011-12-20T11:38:35.401-05:002011-12-20T11:38:35.401-05:00"Nobody I know of paid the rack rate shadchan...<i>"Nobody I know of paid the rack rate shadchan fee set by the Shulchan Aruch (show me where that is again?)" - Avi</i><br /><br />Avi,<br /><br />While I generally like your comments, on this blog and others, I was a little disturbed by this flip one.<br /><br />The fact is that Shadchanus - paying a fee to the matchmaker - is an established practice with halachic parameters. The Rama, Vilna Gaon, Avnei Neizer, Noda Beyehudah, et al, discuss it (in Chosen Mishpat), as they would any other halachic issue.<br /><br />No matter how much it offends one's romantic sensibilities, the Halachah views matchmaking as a business transaction requiring the payment of a fee.<br /><br />How much the Shadchan is paid, however, is not (as you rightly, though somewhat snidely, point out) carved in stone. It is subject to "communal norms." This is where it gets interesting, since in America the concept of "Minhag Hamakom" is disjointed. It's more a question of one's social circles.<br /><br />Therefore, if you and your wife grew up in a chassidic enclave, you might owe a real (read, four figure) fee. Other yeshivishe people might owe less. In YU circles, perhaps, a token gift might be the norm.<br /><br />But no one should think that Shadchanus is optional and up to the couple to determine what they "feel" like giving.CJ Srullowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01851508109666827492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-10277868732055788722011-12-18T18:03:36.885-05:002011-12-18T18:03:36.885-05:00I recently had an interesting conversation with a ...I recently had an interesting conversation with a friend who sits on a school board in his community where his children also attend.<br /><br />He told me that sitting on a school board is a gut-wrenching experience. He is a business owner and is very careful about how his business is run, he plans everything, budgets carefully, and doesn't spend money he doesn't have.<br /><br />And yet, he is constantly forced to make business decisions for the school without proper planning, budgets, or money to pay for the expenses. He explained that running a school gives you a real appreciate for "siyata d'shmaya" (relying on Heavenly assistance). He told me he constantly feels like he needs to stand up and yell about how the place is being run, but there's no other way to run things. Parents don't pay on time leading to budget shortfalls and cash crunches and unplanned events come up requiring immediate action. He says the school is always "this close" to falling into the danger zone. He told me he wonders how much longer schools like his can survive. From what he has heard from other local schools, the situation is the same.<br /><br />He also told me he's constantly hearing sob stories from people who can't afford to make their tuition payments. Not just people who had requested scholarship, but people who mid-year can't make the payments they had committed to. The vast majority of these cases are true hardship instances where the parents are at most guilty of assuming they could pay more than they could. But, he said there's a disturbing minority that is actively or passively trying to not pay tuition. "Active" meaning they all out lie or deceive. More commonly, the parents have passively made themselves poor by buying a larger house or incurring other major expenses.<br /><br />The schools won't kick kids out and have yet to try to force parents into selling their homes or returning a newly leased car. So, he told me, you have the aggravating situation of parents in small houses struggling to pay their fair share while parents in large houses or with newer cars are getting breaks. He said it was a small minority, but that minority causes a lot of strife since it's not exactly a secret.<br /><br />He thinks it's going to end up with the schools being forced to close and the rabbis finally agreeing it's ok to flood the public schools with the former yeshiva kids and setting up a formal cheder afternoon program.<br /><br />Was a sad, but eye-opening, conversation.JSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-40671523771040247232011-12-18T14:01:34.173-05:002011-12-18T14:01:34.173-05:00abba, that is not the end of the story.
The Torah...abba, that is not the end of the story. <br />The Torah allows us to enjoy our wealth; it does not all have to go to the sick, disabled, and needy.<br />The Torah also allows those who are in need to solicit funds to cover their needs, be they physical or emotional. Whether the needs can be met, depends on the givers ability and willingness. Hashem also sometimes mixes in. If a person's plumbing breaks, the plumber becomes rich.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-59492590961352564822011-12-18T13:33:47.034-05:002011-12-18T13:33:47.034-05:00ANON 1:00 P.M. Verty true. And thanks to the int...ANON 1:00 P.M. Verty true. And thanks to the internet, more of those families are going to learn what these BT relatives are being taught about the rest of the world, let alone their relatives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-87455899904210321632011-12-18T13:04:15.296-05:002011-12-18T13:04:15.296-05:00ROSIE:
"The point about Yosef's coat is ...ROSIE:<br /><br />"The point about Yosef's coat is that the Torah does not obligate us to give every cent to the poor and never enjoy anything"<br /><br />no. the point is that there is no indication ever sought out a penny from others to pay for the coat or anything else. he gave the coat as a gift because he could afford to. end of story.Abbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06147724170190982376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-2820571336295102442011-12-18T13:00:00.930-05:002011-12-18T13:00:00.930-05:00Back to the issue of family support for BTs unable...Back to the issue of family support for BTs unable to pay tuition, I wonder how many non-frum people helping to pay tuition realize that the recipients are often being indoctrinated in racism and homophobia. Too many naive people think that Orthodox Judaism is all about wonderful holidays and not using electricity on Saturday. Theologically, it's more problematic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-32420949427420081012011-12-18T12:55:11.798-05:002011-12-18T12:55:11.798-05:00what would have to be determined though, is whethe...what would have to be determined though, is whether or not the problem is actually growing or shrinking. Where I live, the average child probably attends school in shoes from Target or Payless. I see kids attending shul in their sneakers. Many families here eat from a food bank and if they would drive a lexus, it would likely be a very old one with lots of mileage on it which would not exactly make it a luxury car anymore. I don't see much conspicuous consumption here. If anything, I see just the opposite. That may not be the case in other communities and some of my married kids live in areas where conspicuous consumption is a huge problem.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89723164523894549292011-12-18T12:42:23.171-05:002011-12-18T12:42:23.171-05:00The more I think about it, although we are taught ...The more I think about it, although we are taught not to concern ourselves with our neighbor's tent and that coveting as ashour, close knit OJ communities place a high value on conformity and, being close knit, we do know what is going in other's homes and what people buy and how they spend their mony. It is very hard to have conformity and a close knit community without kids (and adults) expecting to have and do the same things that everyone else does. Perhaps that is why overspending and the commoditization of luxuries may be a growing problem in the community. That is also why it is more incumbant on leaders to and teachers to help "normalize" a modest lifestyle. If we can preach against a woman showing her elbows, why not preach against a show of excess consumption. In other words, the same forces that create the problems can be used to help solve them. Driving a lexus or an audi should be considered just as immodest as knees or uncovered heads.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-7806025202752855592011-12-18T12:10:47.876-05:002011-12-18T12:10:47.876-05:00anon, what you said is something that anyone can a...anon, what you said is something that anyone can agree with. Designer clothes for babies is a luxury that many frum people indulge in. I know of a family in NY that moved to Texas in order to live the modest and spiritual life that you speak of. They felt that they could not withstand the pressure of NY living. While I don't want to say where I live, many families here buy their children's clothes, even yomtov clothes, at second hand shops and cheaper stores such as kmart. If a woman wears the same dress to shul every week, she is no less popular than an a lady with a big wardrobe. No one here would look down on a small simcha and many get married in the modest shul hall. Shaitels from the Korean wig shops at under $100 a wig are often seen on the ladies here. The frum jeweler has a reduced price collection that is suitable for brides without costing a fortune. Few families here, eat out.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-85488706598807535982011-12-18T11:52:41.971-05:002011-12-18T11:52:41.971-05:00If it were just the weddings, that would not be a ...If it were just the weddings, that would not be a problem by itself, and I can certainly understand that young couples want to have a celebration at least somewhat similar to what other community members have. The problem is that so many things that most of the world (even in the U.S.) considers a luxury becomes a necessity in the O.J. world, from the clothes to jewelry to private school, to year in Israel, to big families to summer camp, not to mention ritual articles for whcih we justify spending unlimited amounts as hidor mitzvah. Then, combine that with discouraging secular education and postponing marriage and childrbirth for a few years so the newlyweds can finish their educations and get a start in their careers. The other problem is all the apppearance of living lavishly seems incongruous with the notion of modesty and living a spiritual life devoted to good works.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-82352879780991867022011-12-18T11:02:16.487-05:002011-12-18T11:02:16.487-05:00also, truthfully, I see more kallahs in borrowed g...also, truthfully, I see more kallahs in borrowed gowns or gemach gowns that cost less than $200 to rent than I see buying or going to expensive rental shops. I don't live in Boro Park, Flatbush or Williamsberg and what is spent in other communities does not really affect my reality. I have not seen anyone make a $50,000 wedding and then turn around and ask for tuition assistance. I am not saying that it never happens but I personally don't see it. Poor people are making less costly weddings but it is still a step up from crackers and sardines at city hall. Most poor that I see, get married in shul halls with smaller crowds and the meal is the same at each wedding. In Crown Heights, there is a tzedukah to make these weddings cheaper and those who have no money can have a home cooked meal made by volunteers in a small hall for a small group of people. Usually that is done for BTs with no family support and no money. Many of these have green cards or visas. <br />In Toronto, the package deal weddings were supposed to help the poor and then the rich started using these packages as well. I could imagine communities putting together packages that involve less experienced or popular vendors in order to make a nice wedding at a lower cost and give these vendors a chance to break into the business. <br />I do take issue with buying expensive jewelry for a kallah but it is nice and customary to give some jewelry. The jewelry alone can amount to thousands if there is no cap on it.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-73472843727195557122011-12-18T10:32:48.789-05:002011-12-18T10:32:48.789-05:00Ok, how would you folks handle this real live situ...Ok, how would you folks handle this real live situation?<br />There is a handicapped young man on SSI disability who is dating a normal girl with a good job and the match looks promising. His parents are divorced with not much income there and her parents are not frum so they are probably not too excited about paying extra to eat kosher. He is an only child. He does not mind if his wedding is a picnic in a public park but he will probably need some help from the community.<br />What would you do?rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-84782202155804199532011-12-18T08:26:42.483-05:002011-12-18T08:26:42.483-05:00If the truly poor are given tzedakah to have a $10...If the truly poor are given tzedakah to have a $10,000 wedding, than the middle class needs to spend $20,000 to show that they aren't the poor. You are putting upward pressure on every else when you lift the bottom.<br /><br />Personally, I don't care for "casual" weddings in "ordinary" clothing, it's a special occasion, one should be dressed up. But you're using "ordinary" dismissively, everyone involved has a perfectly fine set of "church clothes" and an upgraded bridal dress for $200 and a fancy tie/vest for the groom for $100 and you'd upgrade everyone's shabbat outfit to an occasion.<br /><br />Does it suck that the daughter doesn't get to dress like a princess because her parents didn't save enough money for her wedding, absolutely. Like all things in life, we can learn a valuable lesson.<br /><br />The Orthodox attitude that "there are zero consequences for poor financial decisions" is ingrained in all of these events, and it undermines proper decisions.<br /><br />The fact that regardless of whether you save and scrimp OR spend lavishly on things:<br /><br />1. You live in the same neighborhood<br />2. Your children attend the same schools<br />3. You have the same clothing<br />4. You celebrate weddings the same<br />etc., etc.<br /><br />is part of the problem. To be honest, it's totally rational to spend like drunken sailors, it doesn't seem like it makes a big difference. Now, at the end of 40 years, there's a big difference between finances, but during the years when the decisions are made, it all seems inconsequential.<br /><br />And we're seeing escalating costs and declining income... the problem with socialism is that pretty soon, you run out of other people's money.<br /><br />Frumkeit is running out of other peoples money.Miami Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977503720972852329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-68026329106835472072011-12-18T06:54:50.291-05:002011-12-18T06:54:50.291-05:00Rosie: No one is saying that weddings should be s...Rosie: No one is saying that weddings should be sardine and crackers or that the community shouldn't help the truly poor have a nice, dignified wedding. The problem isn't the truly poor who accept assistance for a celebration. The problem is those who have the $50,000 wedding instead of the $20,000 wedding (not exactly herring and crackers) and then in a few years are looking for scholarships when they could have saved some money to be self-sufficient. The problem is that weddings, with all the presents and accoutrements, have gotten over the top. The expenses for luxuries are sucking up tzedakah dollars that could go to far better causes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-41096477615228997822011-12-17T23:04:08.648-05:002011-12-17T23:04:08.648-05:00what I meant by a standard is that if a person nee...what I meant by a standard is that if a person needs tzedukah help from the community to make a wedding, the community needs to decide how to help so that everyone who needs help can get help within the boundaries of what the community can give. It is a valid use of tzedukah money to help with weddings expenses. This is the mitzvah of hachnassas kallah and it is a time-honored mitzvah and is not consider squandering community money. Obviously, those who are not coming to the community for help can do whatever they choose. I think that it would be very wrong to tell someone that because they could not afford full tuition, that they were not entitled to get married anywhere except city hall or serve anything more than bread and herring. <br />Zach, tzedukah exists because there are needs, both physical and emotional, that others can meet for those who can't afford something. I don't see why a person who is getting married has to be made to suffer and if some of you would have been just as happy getting married in ordinary clothes and eating pickles and herring, then you are truly unique. Many people would feel very grieved at having to get married that way because weddings have been celebratory occasions since time began.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-15677813956694603712011-12-17T10:32:13.355-05:002011-12-17T10:32:13.355-05:00I think we need to teach people to have enough bac...I think we need to teach people to have enough backbone to say "I can't afford that". Howe we can get there I have no idea.Zach Kessinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04276155117746098546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72479760934238583332011-12-16T15:53:33.484-05:002011-12-16T15:53:33.484-05:00I don't think the approach is to set standards...I don't think the approach is to set standards for all. There will always be people who simply can't afford anything more than city hall.<br /><br />A more successful strategy is to simply bring the standard down and make all options from "cake and punch" followed by a modest family to a more normative wedding to be considered ordinary. No everyone has to do the same thing. <br /><br />Those of us who do have more to work with should lead the way and make more modest affairs. <br /><br />At the time that the Agudah put out their wedding takana, which never caught on to say the least, there were some who complained it would hurt vendors and their parnassah. I thought it serving a greater good to lower the standard. But I don't think it would be right to impose a standard that threatens vendors immediately. Just open up a wedding within the means to be the standard. For some that will be a dessert type reception. For others, a more standard wedding.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-23875443059302108662011-12-16T15:39:23.198-05:002011-12-16T15:39:23.198-05:00We must, as a community, come together to set norm...<i>We must, as a community, come together to set norms and standards that everyone can live by.</i><br /><br />Why?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-80142736562898898232011-12-16T15:14:38.335-05:002011-12-16T15:14:38.335-05:00Avi,
I asked a rabbi when I saw some community mem...Avi,<br />I asked a rabbi when I saw some community members raising money for what appeared to be a bit more of a fancy wedding than what I thought that the community should provide. His answer was that the mitzvah of hachnassas kallah was a very lofty mitzvah and that if the community was capable of meeting this couple's emotional needs in this way, then it was certainly praiseworthy, even if the community would not be able to do the same for future couples. That shut me up. <br />We can't, as a community, fault people for wanting more than pickles and herring at a wedding celebration. We must, as a community, come together to set norms and standards that everyone can live by.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-30485185972745563152011-12-16T14:39:10.804-05:002011-12-16T14:39:10.804-05:00Well, I certainly agree with this "Rosie.&quo...Well, I certainly agree with this "Rosie." Anyone know what happened to the old "Rosie?"Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-39095361903270004012011-12-16T14:18:26.581-05:002011-12-16T14:18:26.581-05:00as far as gowns, I have seen many brides, as well ...as far as gowns, I have seen many brides, as well as their mothers and sisters borrow from gemachs and most frum newspapers and community links papers have ads for used gowns if someone wants to buy a gown. If a family buys a gown, it often gets loaned out to friends and family members so I don't think that the designer gown that costs thousands just to rent is the "norm" in every community. We should not portray every Orthodox girl as "needing" a brand new designer gown because that is far from true.<br />I also wonder what the poor would feel like if they were told that they should make a wedding with crackers and herring rather than hope for better. I would really have to admire anyone who wanted to remain in such a community, since there probably would be people who could help make it a nicer affair. Their devotion to Hashem and his Torah would be an inspiration for everyone but that would be a huge nisoyin for many people.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46295788642767082432011-12-16T13:31:29.400-05:002011-12-16T13:31:29.400-05:00what I actually see happening in some communities ...what I actually see happening in some communities (and I said this before but no one paid attention) is that communities raise money to help poor people have nice but not expensive weddings. In Chicago, the money pays for food in a shul hall and volunteers cook and serve. In Toronto, there are package deals where a group of vendors work together to lower the price to something reasonable. I doubt that very many people would be happy with a trip to city hall and a stop at McDonalds on the way home for a wedding and that is why most Americans have some sort of celebration. Personally, I also had a very cheap wedding but at least it was in a hall, with some dancing, food, and photography and I have happy memories of it.<br />As far as single parenthood, I have a relative who has several foster children that he is planning to adopt as a single parent. Single parenthood by choice is probably less stressful and more fulfilling than parenthood that follows an accidental pregnancy.<br />I am actually in favor of cutting back l'chaim's, sheva brachas, and gifts but $75 seems to me to be a bit too unrealistic of a budget for a party, even at Costco.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-70059297823590669302011-12-16T11:08:48.162-05:002011-12-16T11:08:48.162-05:00My 6 yr old loves princesses, fairies, and monster...My 6 yr old loves princesses, fairies, and monsters. Disney has lines for two out of the three, and Star Wars licensees cover the third. I'm not sure that her love of princesses will lead her to want a fairytale wedding over a Jabba the Hutt themed one, but Rosie is right about one thing - Disney's Princess line and its imitators have infected products aimed at every socioeconomic level - including the Dollar Store and Walmart for poor/rural consumers, Disney Stores for upper middle class, and Target/Kmart/JCP/Macy's for anyone in between. As a huge animation fan, this doesn't disturb me as much as it probably should.<br /><br />Also, the issue shouldn't be whether "average goyim" spend $20K on weddings. They do. $26K, in fact, if Google is correct. The point is that people in our community who cannot afford to spend $26K on weddings should not do so, and we must fight against social norms that suggest this is "expected" if the reality is that these couples are going to be asking for tzedaka for the wedding or for any part of life afterwards.<br /><br />Rosie, $75 buys an awful lot of food at Costco. Add $25 for a bottle of scotch if you're into that sort of thing and you really ought to be fine. I didn't have one of these, but my siblings did, and it was not an elaborate affair. A vort/engagement party is all about people gathering, shmoozing, congratulating the couple, and divrei torah, right? Why do you think it needs to cost hundreds or thousands of dollars?Avi Greengarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267040237664555562noreply@blogger.com