tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post7871999491794822403..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: A Little, But Important Footnote (Or, how to pick where you place your raffle tickets)Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-49824742305853026572013-01-17T18:11:00.620-05:002013-01-17T18:11:00.620-05:00My only moral justification is that they are not t...My only moral justification is that they are not terrible people for doing what the average winner of a prize does. They are not superior to a more honest person and there is no halachic justification for dishonesty but I see on here that most people view frum people more harshly than others who do the exact same thing. I wonder how many people who win anything, regardless of religious persuasion think that they need to find out if it is taxable or not. That, to me, is the nature of the psychology of winning and not necessarily a sinister desire to cheat. I have a feeling that a lot of people who get tips such as waiters, waitresses, hair stylists, etc under report their cash earnings. They frequently get audited, particularly if it appears that they live on more than they claim to be making. Society does not usually view them as crooks, and recognizes that they may be a bit desperate. In my mind we must separate the fact that frum Jews are viewed as having a superiority complex and that fact that many don't report auction winnings. And, unlike you, I do feel that the auctions are very problematic for reasons besides taxes but I understand that these causes have not found another way to raise significant sums of money.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-49690474433750427442013-01-16T22:08:21.789-05:002013-01-16T22:08:21.789-05:00I also never claimed to give tons of tzedakah. I l...I also never claimed to give tons of tzedakah. I love giving tzedakah and if I had more, I would give more, but I am a full-time graduate student right now so I do not have a lot to give. But, when I do give, I give online through NetworkForGood and not for cash prizes or dinners. I am not saying that those who enjoy raffles are in any way in the wrong--only that they should follow the laws in reporting all income. Or, if they don't follow the law, admit that it is personal failing and not something that is okay.Abacaxi Mamaohttp://abacaximamao.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-46332528549928347662013-01-16T22:05:42.288-05:002013-01-16T22:05:42.288-05:00Rosie, I was not saying that I was perfect, only t...Rosie, I was not saying that I was perfect, only that the fact that "nobody follows the law" is not a good reason not to follow it.<br /><br />If I found a dollar on the ground I might just keep it and not report it to the IRS. Or I might give it to tzedakah and not include it in my itemized tax deductions. When I am paid for work that I do, though, even in cash, I pay taxes and social security and all the other payroll taxes on it. I've been reporting cash income on my tax returns since my father started filing them for me when I was a teenager (and earned more than the minimum required to pay social security tax on babysitting and summer job earnings). Does this make me superior in some way to people who don't? Yes, if we consider following the laws of a democratic country to be a measure of superiority.<br /><br />I once went out on a date with a frum guy (with smicha) who was questioning the kashrut of the hot chocolate I ordered but then, it turned out, had always been paid in cash and never paid taxes or social security on it. He said that he "didn't know I had to." For someone with an Internet connection and the ability to fluently read English, that is no excuse. It is pretty easy to figure out on the IRS websites what is taxable and what is not.<br /><br />I don't know if RW or MO or seculars Jews or non-Jews are more likely to follow the laws of the land or not. What galls me is the idea that you can somehow morally justify purposely not following the law of the land just because you think you won't be caught or can't be bothered to search for something on the IRS website. Anyone doing that some sort of non-superior person in my eyes. I don't go around spouting this in polite company--that's what blogs are for.Abacaxi Mamaohttp://abacaximamao.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-83018280931371553342013-01-16T18:12:57.389-05:002013-01-16T18:12:57.389-05:00While there is no doubt that there are those in th...While there is no doubt that there are those in the RW community who feel superior, I have also met people from other walks of life who also feel superior. Usually, they are not truly superior, they just perceive themselves that way. This pertains to non-Jews and non-frum Jews as well. I could see it if they had really accomplished something in life but oftentimes it is simply so that they don't have to face their own insecurities. <br />I did see a gift in a secular magazine giveaway that said "no commercial value" and it was probably seconds as Miami Al was saying. <br />I did ask someone whose mother won a custom wig and she said that the 1099s were given for cash prizes but not for merchandise that was won. Again, was the wig something that had no commercial value?rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-57434366290756573762013-01-16T00:19:22.479-05:002013-01-16T00:19:22.479-05:00One of the ways to avoid a tax on it is to give so...One of the ways to avoid a tax on it is to give something with no retail value. The way to do that is a special, promotional line of a product that isn't sold. Much of the Jewelry you see at these contests are that way... Much is made of the Jewelry store giving it away, but the manufacturers give it to them (usually from "seconds" or otherwise flawed merchandise), and they can't sell it, only give it as prizes.<br /><br />So there are ways to do it.<br /><br />Simply not issuing 1099s is a criminal way to do it.<br /><br />Casual casino gamblers don't keep records (serious ones play on Credit, and the Casino tabulates it all for them), and if they happy to win one time, they probably aren't reporting it.<br /><br />Again, no one is saying that everyone else is perfect. It's this strange attitude of superiority I see from people that are clearly not superior.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-13155033959291551322013-01-14T16:46:00.959-05:002013-01-14T16:46:00.959-05:00I would also say that when looking up info on Chin...I would also say that when looking up info on Chinese auctions, I saw that B'nei Akiva schools and NCSY had these auctions as well. I would think that the attendees and participants of such auctions are MO. Should we simply assume that the MO are are more conscientious about tax paying than the RW and therefore their auctions are more kosher? Because they don't feel religiously superior to other Jews, should we figure that if they fudge a bit on their taxes it is somehow more excusable? rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-52446938184398953922013-01-14T13:55:29.427-05:002013-01-14T13:55:29.427-05:00Tesyaa, there is a certain psychology of winning t...Tesyaa, there is a certain psychology of winning that makes some people look at winnings as separate from earnings. They view it as a gift and therefore don't even realize that they owe anything for the gift. This has nothing to do with the person's religion. Secular magazines with contests in them don't even mention taxes. The rabbi in Israel is full of hot air and I see very few RW rabbonim that view all frum people as fine and upstanding and all goyim as ruthless sinners. Rabbonim know that the changes in frum communities over the last couple of decades mean that they cannot assume anything about anyone simply because of the way that they are dressed. No one admits to wearing a costume. When Catholic priests molested numerous children, they also did not admit that their priestly robes were mere costumes. <br />They really think they are somehow better.<br /> This phrase is true and they are not fooling anyone and this is why people like you and Miami, and Anon, and Abacaxi get angry that they want to get away with something. <br />Still, I wonder how Chinese auctions that are heavily advertised, are held yearly, and involve mail that crosses state lines, could still be run illegally, or does the IRS look the other way at some contests? rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37821371462585916292013-01-14T09:35:21.991-05:002013-01-14T09:35:21.991-05:00Everyone expects frum people to be able to pass te...<i>Everyone expects frum people to be able to pass tests that others cannot pass.</i><br /><br />First of all, surely some people who are not frum would pass the test. Secondly, frum people constantly toot their own horns as better, finer people than the "goyim". A rabbi in Israel stated that the world is full of 8 million murderers and thieves, and the only decent people are the frum! If someone is merely dressing in a costume I understand that they are no finer than a person from another culture, but most frum people do not admit to wearing a costume. They really think they are somehow better. If they are better, they should obey the law, even when most others can't.tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-78787126636145721512013-01-13T14:42:36.047-05:002013-01-13T14:42:36.047-05:00http://matzav.com/americans-feel-austeritys-bite-a...http://matzav.com/americans-feel-austeritys-bite-as-payroll-taxes-rise#more-84929<br /><br />Higher taxes and higher health insurance premiums since health insurers now must insure everyone despite prior or pre-existing illnesses. At least in Canada, the taxes are higher but it includes medical care. Those who say that the care there isn't as good should compare infant mortality rates and longevity between us and them. Even with their socialized medicine, they are outliving us. rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-71314894977185266442013-01-12T23:59:40.750-05:002013-01-12T23:59:40.750-05:00BTW abacaxi, do you know that if you find a dollar...BTW abacaxi, do you know that if you find a dollar bill on the ground and you pick it up that you are supposed to report it to the IRS? How do you handle found money? Do you declare it or just give it to tzedukah?rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63659558237491235742013-01-12T23:35:53.131-05:002013-01-12T23:35:53.131-05:00abacaxi, I would imagine that not only Jews but ot...abacaxi, I would imagine that not only Jews but others, even good people, win prizes and don't report the prize if it isn't going to be reported to the government. For example, a local grocery store is raffling off $300 in groceries. What percentage of people would you think would report the win? The store is just going to hand over the prize, no questions asked. Now you can say that most people are not moral or ethical and really, I don't know how Hashem judges the winner who doesn't pay taxes on the win, but I don't know how many people will pass such a test. No one is suggesting breaking the law but it is probably inadvertently broken on a frequent basis. No one objects to paying taxes on gambling wins but they are not going to force the money on the government either. <br />You know what really bothers me about this argument? Everyone expects frum people to be able to pass tests that others cannot pass. Some frum people never enter contests and never have the test of having to give some of it up for taxes and others are unfortunately not on that level. Dressing the part does not mean that they pass every test that comes their way. Abacaxi, I am really proud of you that you give lots of tzedukah without having to be lured with prizes and wish that all could do the same. We need to be inspired to follow your brave example. rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89457875086290712302013-01-12T22:56:11.970-05:002013-01-12T22:56:11.970-05:00Laws must be followed whether they are enforced or...Laws must be followed whether they are enforced or not. Full stop. I cannot believe that anyone would suggest otherwise.<br /><br />If you don't like the taxation system under which you live, elect politicians who agree with you. The US has the lowest tax rates in the Western world (and the fewest services for the poor, elderly, parentless, etc.). I can't believe that people would object to paying taxes on gambling earnings (which auctions basically are), but I guess to each her own. Since the government disagrees, though, I recommend following the law. Even if you will never get caught. Dina d'malchuta dina, etc., if your ethical obligation to follow the laws of your country doesn't compel you.Abacaxi Mamaohttp://abacaximamao.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-79296064121512802302013-01-07T17:00:21.409-05:002013-01-07T17:00:21.409-05:00anon,
what does this shidduch site post have to do...anon,<br />what does this shidduch site post have to do with Chinese auctions?rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-36330991701421693052013-01-07T15:50:02.972-05:002013-01-07T15:50:02.972-05:00http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2013/01/new-fru...http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2013/01/new-frum-shidduch-site-yourshadchanorg.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72646934811240562952013-01-07T00:57:25.877-05:002013-01-07T00:57:25.877-05:00http://www.frumsatire.net/2007/12/19/is-it-tzedaka...http://www.frumsatire.net/2007/12/19/is-it-tzedaka-or-is-it-something-else/<br /><br />This very good article on the subject of Chinese auctions in the frum world is 5 years old but right on the money. Basically the only way to keep a charitable appeal from being tossed straight into the trash is to spend mega bucks on a glossy catalog of incredible prizes. Much of the money raised pays for the event but overall the cause makes more than if they relied on straight donations. rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-43074148615273383482013-01-06T21:34:44.822-05:002013-01-06T21:34:44.822-05:00http://www.oorah.org/auctionterms/index.asp
read ...http://www.oorah.org/auctionterms/index.asp<br /><br />read this disclaimer from the oorah auction. It does issue 1099s but also states that the taxes are the sole responsibility of the winner and the winning is void in states where it is prohibited. Looks like a lawyer wrote the disclaimers because it is a national raffle. rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-1266397000923120512013-01-06T21:29:11.682-05:002013-01-06T21:29:11.682-05:00http://www.nals.org/?p=1340
This link gives each ...http://www.nals.org/?p=1340<br /><br />This link gives each state's laws about gaming and Chinese auctions are included in these laws. The advice at the bottom of the article advises organizations to hire lawyers before attempting a fundraiser that involves any form of gaming. I hope that these organizations have adequate legal counsel and wonder what percent of charitable organizations outside of ongoing bingo games operate their raffles legally. <br />Anon, when large numbers of people are ignoring laws and the laws are not enforced, Jews are no more at fault than anyone else. Laws that are not enforced may not have the halachic requirement of laws but ask your own rav. rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-8856285930353235122013-01-06T21:10:19.279-05:002013-01-06T21:10:19.279-05:00http://charitylawyerblog.com/2009/10/07/charity-ra...http://charitylawyerblog.com/2009/10/07/charity-raffles-tread-carefully/<br />actually, according to this, many of these raffles may be totally illegal. I wonder if they have been told that they discharge their legal obligation with the disclaimer that taxes are the sole responsibility of the winner because in some cases, such as when the prize is many times the amount gambled or when it is worth $5000, the organization must withhold the taxes at 25% and pay it. Some states require the raffle to be registered with the state and it takes months. I hope that these organizations are operating the auctions legally because what I read on one site said that charitable organizations don't have the same level of obligation that profit businesses have. These auctions have been going on for years and so far, I have never heard of anyone being caught running an illegal auction and these booklets are mailed across state lines and mass distributed. If they are doing something illegal, could someone please explain how it has lasted this long and is still ongoing? Someone obviously looks the other way at these things. I would also think that by now, there would have been articles in all the frum publications about the poor dude that won a $10,000 dining room set and couldn't pay the taxes on it. Someone must be bailing those guys out. rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-42027169402886308042013-01-06T20:49:25.032-05:002013-01-06T20:49:25.032-05:00Anon, where do you see that organizations are lega...Anon, where do you see that organizations are legally required to report the winning of large prizes. I read that non-profits do not have the same legal requirements. If you can find it written somewhere, I would like to see it because I only came across one auction where they state that 1099s are given out. You are right that tainted money is no good and the sages of olde warned that children who were fed from tainted money would grow up to be non-frum. It is a serious issue but there are not plenty of other ways to raise money or Chinese auctions would not be as common as they are. rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-11247374696786243312013-01-06T20:44:27.753-05:002013-01-06T20:44:27.753-05:00Remember too Al, losing a chunk of the prize dampe...Remember too Al, losing a chunk of the prize dampens the enthusiasm for winning. Non profits lose by dampening enthusiasm the same way that major food companies don't want you to think about your taxes when you enter their sweepstakes. The food companies are not non-profits and must report the winnings but non-profits are not obligated to shoot themselves in the foot.rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-3799212018437474072013-01-06T20:43:44.214-05:002013-01-06T20:43:44.214-05:00Rosie: The organizations are legally required to ...Rosie: The organizations are legally required to report winnings or prizes over $600 on a 1099 and in many states and towns, must even report smaller amounts. The issue is not whether or not some people legitimately don't know they don't have to report or forget a token $25 winning. Nor is the issue whether or not gentiles are scrupulous. I always laugh when I hear the argument that we shouldn't have to do X because the seculars or gentiles don't do it. Isn't leading a Torah life supposed to help one avoid temptations to cheat and lie and to be a better person. Would you say we can eat lobster because the seculars do?<br /><br />Also, these days most people will either get a questionnaire from their accountant before the returns are prepared that would call for disclosing winnings. Those who use programs to prepare their own returns will probably also see questions about winnings. Yes, some will still legitimately forget the small item, but that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about not reporting the $1,000 diamond earings or the $3,000 silver candelabra.<br /><br />As for the argument that we can't be meticulous because all these organizations need to raise money, what good is tainted money, that is not a justification for knowingly playing fast and loose. There are plenty of other ways to raise money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72891539284324577152013-01-06T20:38:37.055-05:002013-01-06T20:38:37.055-05:00Giving out forms is one thing and taking social se...Giving out forms is one thing and taking social security numbers to give the IRS is something else. It may require more effort. rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-74161185189249525042013-01-06T20:35:36.059-05:002013-01-06T20:35:36.059-05:00Rosie,
All these things are true.
I'm very p...Rosie,<br /><br />All these things are true.<br /><br />I'm very put off by the attitude of "laws don't apply to us" I see in the Frum world, it's pretty gross and embarassing.<br /><br />In terms of 1099 forms? If you are a non-profit maintaining 501(c)3 status and turning in 990s, you can give out 1099s. It's a simple form, and you get a pack of the forms for $10 at office supply stores this time of year. No excuse for any firm that has an accountant to not file 1099s.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-69245181788673996082013-01-06T20:18:39.881-05:002013-01-06T20:18:39.881-05:00I think that there are some very secular people wh...I think that there are some very secular people who feel that the government is snatching away enough of their money and giving it to lazy bums who don't work and that if they can make something look deductible, or hide income, they will. They feel justified because they don't like the way the government is throwing away their money. They want to outsmart the government. Religious Christians may sweat the small stuff but as humans, they may fail in some bigger way because everyone falls prey to temptations once in awhile. To frum people, these auctions are big temptations. Aside from the tax evasion issue, there are some who gamble the rent money. There are ladies who make the circuit of all these events and view it as kosher gambling. The auction issue is very problematic but then where is the money supposed to come from for all the worthy causes? The causes are within their legal rights to print a disclaimer that taxes are the responsibility of the winner and leave the matter up to the winner. They are not legally obligated to be tax police although those who have an ax to grind with the frum community feel that they are morally obligated to give 1099 forms in order to force the winners to pay taxes on the winnings. These auctions are often run by volunteers who don't have to volunteer to file forms. Who then, of these organizations are we holding responsible for making sure that people pay the taxes? <br />And of the secular world, I just looked in half a dozen secular ladies magazines and there are lots of contests and sweepstakes and they don't bother letting anyone know what their tax obligation is. There is away around that too. One contest states that the gift has "no cash value" even though the gift is brand new merchandise. I don't see too many angels in the tax paying corner from either camp. rosiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750230430610565818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-933610157486746042013-01-06T19:53:42.320-05:002013-01-06T19:53:42.320-05:00Rosie,
Am I sure that they always claimed prize i...Rosie,<br /><br />Am I sure that they always claimed prize income on their taxes? I'm sure that they didn't. I can't remember anyone keeping good records of poker or casino winnings, etc., to know if they needed to report or not. I don't think people often bother with these small dollar prizes. My issue is not the not remembering, but rather the belief that because of "insert expensive religious requirement" people feel justified in tax evasion. There is a huge difference between "I come out about even on these things, I don't keep track" and "hahaha, the Yeshiva and I are too smart, the IRS will never catch us, bwahahaha."<br /><br />Are my friends super meticulous with this stuff, no, they aren't. OTOH, they aren't super meticulous checking their lettuce for bugs. I will say that the religious Christians I know tend to be meticulous in these small matters, while my secular friends ignore all these "small" issues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com