tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post8299407253082215185..comments2024-03-24T05:22:27.179-04:00Comments on Orthonomics: Orthonomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-17170528719404565692008-12-15T17:53:00.000-05:002008-12-15T17:53:00.000-05:00aml, I personally know family members and friends ...aml, I personally know family members and friends who have spent years teaching in inner-city schools in tough neighborhoods. It can be a bit scary at times (escorted walks to your car after parent conferences), but--on the whole--it isn't as bad as people think. And then there is the possibility that if you are a math/science teacher it is much more likely for you to get a better school placement. Also, elementary grades are not as problematic. It is what it is. Same for the Yeshiva system. We will all have to make a deliberate, well-thought out choice and weigh the options. Just swatting away PS isn't really a knowledgable, measured choice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-26394062631794939082008-12-15T17:49:00.000-05:002008-12-15T17:49:00.000-05:00All day, I've been thinking of the switch to Publi...All day, I've been thinking of the switch to Public School and the pluses and minuses for me personally. I have never considered it as seriously as I do now. On a practical note, I know of at least one school that scaled back its annual dinner. I also know some day schools (MO) that are working together on trying to generate solutions. I know that we will be experiencing staff cuts next year at our school. Some schools are getting very transparent about their choices and the kinds of discussions the boards are having. I don't know what exactly is said behind those doors, but I do know that--in writing and in conversation with staff members--respect for the teachers is evident and I appreciate that. I applaud the healthy and respectful attitude toward the problem. I wish that the following was a universal approach: transparency, humility, creative thinking, teamwork, respect for teachers and administrators.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-77143825155757099432008-12-15T17:39:00.000-05:002008-12-15T17:39:00.000-05:00I don't know about all of this. Here in Baltimore ...I don't know about all of this. Here in Baltimore City, 51 public schools students have been suspended so far this year for beating teachers. Yes, that reads "beating teachers." <BR/><BR/>Maybe the grass isn't always greener on the other side.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-51596145126679046672008-12-15T12:22:00.000-05:002008-12-15T12:22:00.000-05:00Re discipline, the public school standards are muc...Re discipline, the public school standards are much more structured, as Anonymousmom points out, and much more strict, with mandatory consequences for certain offenses. Would our yeshivas publish such standards? Never, because as with so many other actions, bad behaviors are swept under the rug in our communities and are not acknowledged to exist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-64065632915821174912008-12-15T11:41:00.000-05:002008-12-15T11:41:00.000-05:00ANON:the truth is education in general is expensiv...ANON:<BR/><BR/>the truth is education in general is expensive, private or otherwise. the only question is who picks up the tab for that expense. in public school the entire tax base picks up the tab, whereas in private school the parent body (and some donors) picks up the tab (although as in our schools, generally not in an equitable manner)<BR/><BR/>ANON MOM:<BR/><BR/>my father taught in an inner city h.s. (the type with metal detectors) and in the evening in yeshivot. he always said that his public school students were generally respectful (at least in the classroom), whereas the yeshivah students were vilda chayos<BR/><BR/>last year i worked on ave j. for a month a block away from my alma mater. i was disgusted by the way the boys behaved during lunch and on the way home. but i wasn't sure if they've gotten worse since i was there or if it's the same but now i've become a grumpy old manLion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-89327213668370672672008-12-15T10:01:00.000-05:002008-12-15T10:01:00.000-05:00JS and LoZ -- you are making the point that even a...JS and LoZ -- you are making the point that even a bare bones private education is still expensive. Private education is expensive, period.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-90883200617583482002008-12-15T09:28:00.000-05:002008-12-15T09:28:00.000-05:00The biggest problem with these cost-cutting measur...The biggest problem with these cost-cutting measures, at least in MO yeshivas, is that the parents won't tolerate even the slightest drop in service. They won't accept less extracurriculars, less gym, less facilities, fewer classroom hours, fewer field trips, fewer class shabbatons, etc etc etc.<BR/><BR/>They figure they're paying so much, they want their money's worth. They pay all that money to get a top notch education and no one is going to short change them of it no matter what.<BR/><BR/>Of course, ironically, those who don't pay or pay far less than full price have this attitude as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-54301570246167383052008-12-15T09:07:00.000-05:002008-12-15T09:07:00.000-05:00JLan:Sure, but that is true in the secular world a...JLan:<BR/><BR/>Sure, but that is true in the secular world as well. It is just different dates that have everything shut down.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-33546504618213408442008-12-15T07:46:00.000-05:002008-12-15T07:46:00.000-05:00"Not comparing to inner city populations, just reg..."Not comparing to inner city populations, just regular, suburban or working class populations."<BR/><BR/>I've been in inner-city and suburban public schools. I have friends who have worked in those situations and in Yeshiva Day schools. The students in Yeshiva day school are known to be much more unruly in the classrooms and in the hallways. It all boils down to what we tolerate as a system and the fact that the day schools are "run" by the parents. Even in MO schools, I have seen a downward spiral over the last 20 years. Next time you help chaperone a class trip to a museum or other public place, take note of the public school classes and how they comport themselves on the trip. I guarantee you that no matter what city and what trip, you will see better behavior, more structure exhibited in the public school classes. They are just used to it. Having worked in Manhattan for a few years, I can tell you that inner city public schools are no different. Does it mean that there are no discipline problems in the PS? No. But, you have the combo of a district-run school with a clear, defined structure and--in inner-city schools--heavy immigrant population who actually respect the schools and know that it is their children's path to future success. The real problem in that environment is that many of these parents are not at home and the children are watching too much T.V., playing too many video games and eating too much junk night after night. Our kids in MO schools are also suffering from the video game plague that no parents are addressing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-15130888825485331502008-12-15T06:46:00.000-05:002008-12-15T06:46:00.000-05:00"It should also be noted that if you go to stagger..."It should also be noted that if you go to staggered breaks (which does take considerably more work from a logistical standpoint), you can actually fit more students in the same sized building. You just have them on overlapped schedules."<BR/><BR/>True, but this is limited in the Jewish context, since there are certain break times (Pesach, for example) that one presumably wants to let the entire school go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-91204356751382013042008-12-14T22:35:00.000-05:002008-12-14T22:35:00.000-05:00I'm a big fan of year round schooling anyway. It s...I'm a big fan of year round schooling anyway. <BR/><BR/>It should also be noted that if you go to staggered breaks (which does take considerably more work from a logistical standpoint), you can actually fit more students in the same sized building. You just have them on overlapped schedules.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-72891920745607790872008-12-14T21:56:00.000-05:002008-12-14T21:56:00.000-05:00aml-The more I think about a year round 4 day scho...aml-The more I think about a year round 4 day school schedule the more I think I like it, even though I can already hear the objections. Maybe the idea deserves its own post.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37915372634181740632008-12-14T18:56:00.000-05:002008-12-14T18:56:00.000-05:00Oh, and when I lived in Israel (2000-01) I worked ...Oh, and when I lived in Israel (2000-01) I worked Sundays-Fridays (until noon)... But I think that was (and still is?) the norm in high tech.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-26092276756723098182008-12-14T18:51:00.000-05:002008-12-14T18:51:00.000-05:00I vote for four days per week with a year-round sc...I vote for four days per week with a year-round schedule. DH and I are both professionals but we'd figure out a way to make it work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-63325520450096178662008-12-14T17:43:00.000-05:002008-12-14T17:43:00.000-05:00Why is the discipline so bad? Our community pride...Why is the discipline so bad? Our community prides itself, probably to a fault, about its superiority of its maidlach and bachurim to the goyishe riffraff (not my personal opinion, but almost a ubiquitous opinion in the frum community). Not comparing to inner city populations, just regular, suburban or working class populations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-8540276169642913602008-12-14T17:19:00.000-05:002008-12-14T17:19:00.000-05:00"but regarding your comment about teachers' remuna..."but regarding your comment about teachers' remunaration packages: do you really think they are that abysmal from a purely marktetplace standpoint?"<BR/><BR/>Not particularly. If a teacher is well qualified, certified, has a masters of some sort (whether ed school or subject), then they are either making close to what public school teachers make or else are making a concious decision not to make that much. And if a teacher is not well qualified, is not certified, and does not have a masters (or, in some cases, even a bachelors), then they are competing against a completely different market. They can, moreover, likely make more as a worker at Costco or a barista at Starbucks, but are choosing not to do so.<BR/><BR/>There are certainly ways to mitigate costs. In the last few posts, I've seen people occasionally commenting about how they went to a school (often in Israel) with 30+ students per class. Believe it or not, that CAN work in the US, but it also requires a school poulation that understands it is there to learn, and is willing to be quiet on occasion and do so. The lack of discipline I see in the day school world is appalling, and that certainly contributes toward the problems (you can't have a large class if the class won't be quiet).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-31642545565844825112008-12-14T15:21:00.000-05:002008-12-14T15:21:00.000-05:00JS:i promised myself i wasn't going to comment any...JS:<BR/><BR/>i promised myself i wasn't going to comment anymore on yeshivah posts, but i have to say that i agree with you 100% on your comment <BR/><BR/>"The problem is obvious: no matter how you slice it, private school education is expensive . . ."<BR/><BR/>education is expensive. quality education is even more expensive. and a quality dual curriculum MO education is most expensive. what in the heck do parents expect?<BR/><BR/>i wrote about this here:<BR/>http://agmk.blogspot.com/2008/01/is-there-really-tuition-crisis.html<BR/><BR/>"When you have significant numbers of people sending their children to these schools and then simply not paying, or not paying even close to a full amount"<BR/><BR/>yes, yes, yes. and my blood pressure goes up every time i hear a home-owning parent complain that the tuition board did not give them enough of a break.<BR/><BR/>but regarding your comment about teachers' remunaration packages: do you really think they are that abysmal from a purely marktetplace standpoint?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-73788351950350094792008-12-14T13:53:00.000-05:002008-12-14T13:53:00.000-05:00JS-I do NOT NOT NOT think a 4 day schedule would e...JS-I do NOT NOT NOT think a 4 day schedule would ever fly in our schools, from left to right or right to left. I presented an idea "we can all agree to hate" because the mechanics behind the budget interest me. <BR/><BR/>I agree with you that (some) families need to work/make more. But, let's face it, in the Modern Orthodox world, where schooling is the most expensive (although out of town, the difference between more modern and more right wings schools is not nearly as significant, which is partly why it doesn't play into my thoughts), many of us are making a heck of a lot of money. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps there is NO solution. But, then what??? <BR/><BR/>I would like to hear from a Modern Orthodox administrator on what can/is being done. If someone wants to invite a guest post, please do. It would be my pleasure to post.Orthonomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07892074485262548496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-75783762964474426222008-12-14T11:36:00.000-05:002008-12-14T11:36:00.000-05:00I was a high school teacher in the states, our sch...I was a high school teacher in the states, our school had shorter periods on fridays. For a math or science class a 25-30 min class is a waste. By the time you get the subject started class is over.<BR/><BR/>Now here is a question, assuming you cut one day from the school work and not add 25% to the other day, will the students loose that much from their lives?!? I'm asking this as a serious question, not as a joke, if a school is serious about it, they can rearrange things so there is less class missed for extra curricular activities, plays, speakers, trips, etc.<BR/>Now my second question/comment, a lot of people keep complaining about the lack of time to teach everything these is to teach. An as the resukt they make school days longer. Here in Israel we have the lovely 6-day school week and math and science scores are falling so low that it is simply embarrasing. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Now to summarize, I don't think teaching longer will improve scores, I don't think people who are in school longer know more or are better prepared for life. I don't think cutting fridays will lower scores or make any difference at all in the quality of students that we are producing (both in the US and in Israel. It isn't about time or lack of it.<BR/><BR/>http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728128948&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFullAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-18872997156258101862008-12-14T10:48:00.000-05:002008-12-14T10:48:00.000-05:00JS speaks the truth. Tril, this blog is excellent...JS speaks the truth. Tril, this blog is excellent except that when we speak about the Yeshiva system, we never take into account the cultural differences among Orthodox Jews. Chareidi schools and MO do not operate the same way. Israel/U.S. are completely different cultures. Within the schools--pre-school, elem, MS, HS, University levels operate differently.<BR/>At the end of the day, as JS states, this is a huge financial challenge that will need a much more comprehensive approach, broad changes, an eye for how the system currently works and the markets whose varying needs it is trying to meet. I would love to hear from a MO school administrator on this board. Until then, this is all blowing smoke.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-5405377250278798872008-12-14T10:28:00.000-05:002008-12-14T10:28:00.000-05:00Yes, I live in Israel. In Israel, most people don'...Yes, I live in Israel. In Israel, most people don't work on Fridays. <BR/><BR/>The thing is, even if you can only save the school a few thousand dollars here and there through each little cut, if you make several little cutbacks, then maybe you can save a few tens of thousands of dollars. Will it end the problem? Certainly not!<BR/><BR/>Will it help? Yes. Absolutely.<BR/><BR/>I agree that it's not feasible to cut to a 4-day school week and add the hours to the rest of the week. If you add weeks to the rest of the school year, though, then you can cut the costs of camp, which will help those parents who are making ends meet or are close to making ends meet. <BR/><BR/>The ones taking free rides are going to have to lose those free rides. There's no way around it.<BR/><BR/>Tzedakah (and need-based scholarships are absolutely tzedakah) is for someone who is in a bad situation despite their best efforts, not for people who refuse to help themselves.Leah Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16546935038863589318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-16550998302018549252008-12-14T10:05:00.000-05:002008-12-14T10:05:00.000-05:00Oh, and eventually teachers and others who provide...Oh, and eventually teachers and others who provide services in the Jewish community will hit their breaking point.<BR/><BR/>Our teachers (our GOOD teachers, those who actually care about teaching and didn't just fall into the job because they can't do anything else) will eventually get fed up. As the money continues to dry up at yeshivas, and they start getting paid late, then later and later, and maybe not at all, these teachers will have enough.<BR/><BR/>They already receive far less than they could at a public school. Their salaray is less, they benefits are less. They don't get a pension. These teachers are already sacrificing by working in a yeshiva. There's only so much sacrifice a person can make.<BR/><BR/>This is a huge problem in our communities that we think people who serve the Jewish community are doing such a mitzvah that the mitzvah compensats them for the lousy treatment they receive. So people feel they can take advantage because.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-37712407651274839282008-12-14T09:59:00.000-05:002008-12-14T09:59:00.000-05:00More importantly though, what's the actual savings...More importantly though, what's the actual savings on this? I can't imagine it's that much honestly.<BR/><BR/>What bothers me about all these proposals for our yeshivas is that we're trying to solve a problem that runs in the tens or hundreds of thousands by saving a few hundred here and there.<BR/><BR/>The problem is obvious: no matter how you slice it, private school education is expensive - a double curriculum even more so. When you have significant numbers of people sending their children to these schools and then simply not paying, or not paying even close to a full amount, it's a serious problem.<BR/><BR/>Yes, the yeshivas could be more economical and save pennies here and there, but this just sidesteps the main issue.<BR/><BR/>It's almost like a family that can't afford to pay the electric bill. So what do they do? They tell the utility company to cut costs to make their service more efficient. Even the most drastic measures though will only lower their bill a few bucks maybe. No one would suggest such a ridiculous proposal for a utility company. And yet, we're constantly proposing ideas of this type for our yeshivas.<BR/><BR/>The answer in both cases is the same: people need to make more money. The current system of the rich or well-off subsidizing the poor and not-so-well-off is not sustainable. And not just in these hard economic times when donations are low. It is never sustainable, these harsh times are just speeding up the inevitable.<BR/><BR/>Yeshivas can't keep relying on donations to try to stay in the black and they can't keep raising tuitions indefinitely in the hopes that they'll squeeze more money out of those who pay in full to compensate for the increasing numbers of those who don't.<BR/><BR/>Eventually, those who pay in full will hit their breaking point. Donors will hit their breaking point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-19330598131394538362008-12-14T09:49:00.000-05:002008-12-14T09:49:00.000-05:00I'm with anonymousmom on this one. In my MO yeshi...I'm with anonymousmom on this one. In my MO yeshiva, we were quite busy on Fridays, even the shortest ones of the year. Moving material from Friday to other days would have been agonizing. We ended late enough as is, and most people did some extra-curriculars after school, so those would have to be pushed even later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21976303.post-30260844696801677622008-12-14T08:24:00.000-05:002008-12-14T08:24:00.000-05:00trilCat said she lives in Israel! In Israel most ...trilCat said she lives in Israel! In Israel most people don't work Fridays!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com