Mesila Lectures Available Online

With thanks to a few readers, I was made aware that the recent Mesila event, all 85 minutes of it, can be viewed in its entirety at Baltimore Jewish Life. I was able to listen to the speeches while processing some paperwork and I especially liked the message of the first speaker, Rabbi Hopfer:

“There is a way to live as an ehrliche yid,” said the Rav,”and it has to do with building strength of character and living within our means….You are not permitted to take money from someone without knowing if you have a normal, natural way to pay back. If you do not know how in the world you are going to pay it back, it’s gezeila [stealing]….When husbands and wives talk to each other about how they are going to live, there has to be an understanding between them to try to live a principled life. You don’t buy something without being able to pay for it, if it is going to put you into debt. You can’t do something that you can’t afford.”

Rabbi Hopfer continued to speak about raising children to be principled: “When children grow up and know they just can’t have what they want, although others can afford it, it builds character--the bedrock of what family is all about; a house built on principles. A happy home doesn’t mean you just give them everything that they want. A husband and wife have to discuss where their priorities are, and they might change from month to month. If you spend money on something one month, you might have to cut back on spending on other things that month…It’s criminal for us to go into debt if we can’t afford it; it is a source of tremendous pressure and tension between husband and wife…There has to be gevurah, a strength of character, honesty and principle. When a child grows up learning that Mommy and Daddy live like that, with principle and character, that is a healthy family.”

I was particularly intrigued by something that Rabbi said, something that I've noted (i.e., helping isn't always helpful), which is summarized at Baltimore Jewish Life:

The Rav also discussed that it is a Jewish concept not to take money from other people. “There’s a time when you are permitted to take money from other people, but know that it is a b’dieved, especially from a tzedaka. We have become too accustomed because of our tzedaka organizations, or maybe because of our government programs, to being takers, instead of givers; it is not the yiddishe way, if we don’t have to…It’s a noble thing to do, to try to live within our means and not have to come on to someone else. When children grow up seeing their parents having this attitude, they will grow up having the strength of character and withstand the temptations of what their friends have. They won’t feel deprived.”

There is one trap that I think we have to stay away which is the belief that we are so different from other Americans. Mentioned in the introductory remarks is a popular "financial guru" with a radio show listened to daily by 3 million Americans (referenced at the 2 minute mark) who believes that any family can live on less than $40,000 a year if necessary. The comment was "that number for a frum family is laughable!" Similar sentiments abound such as this one at a relatively new blog, The Partial View, where he compares the average price of a Thanksgiving meal: $49.20 for a family of 10 to Shabbos writing:,

As frum Yidden with kosher food prices plus large mishpachos $ 49.20 wouldn't cover the basic Shabbos meal for even 3 people. This just brings out the point when looking at average expenses and challenges we face as Yidden, comparing our expenses with the national average just does not factor in.

Yes, we do face certain higher costs, but I too can absolutely live on less than 40K if it absolutely necessary (note to my husband: don't quit your job or anything like that because I don't want to live in a crunch:). But I've reviewed my budget and excluding tuition and some much appreciated extras, I think it is doable. And, I happen to serve tasty, healthy food, week in and week out, on a "food stamp" budget--and my food stamp budget includes diapers and cleaning supplies too.

I find it empowering to know that we can live on less and I personally view our more expensive life through a more positive lens when I can view our spending patterns--some of which are related to being part of an Orthodox community, as choices, not as a ball and chain.

Overall, I thought the message of the speakers was a breath of fresh air and I hope that the message of self-control and principal continues to spread.

PSA: Baltimore Meslia Seminar (TONIGHT)

I just received notification of a Mesila Seminar in Baltimore TONIGHT, Monday, February 20, 2012.

See announcement at Baltimore Jewish Life, kindly pointed out to me by a reader who thought some of my readers might be interested. If anyone is attending and would like to share some of the thoughts of the night with readers, be my guest.

8:30PM-10:00PM at Congregation Shaarei Zion in Baltimore

A Frum Family's Guide for Dealing with Today's ECONOMIC REALITY

Rabbinic Perspectives: Hashkafa, Halacha and Chizuk

A panel discussion featuring

Rabbi Yaakov Hopfer

Rabbi Yosef Berger

Rabbi Moshe Hauer

Practical Family Tools for Every Family to Improve Their Bottom Line

A presentation from

Josh Hurewitz

Meslia Counselor Coordinator

Question and Answer Session

Submit all questions that you would like the Rabbononim to address to mesliabaltimore@gmail.com

The Rest of the Homeschooling Responses

Hate to start asubject line and never finish it up, so below are the other Yated Chinuch Roundtable responses. The most revealing, often insensitive and jaw-dropping responses (e.g. "I can't ever see a reason to homeschool a child") are in my first post: An Epidemic? Do I Detect Some Fear?

Below are the rest of the responses with some comments in [brackets].

Menahel, The Toronto Cheder

The decision to home-school your daughter is a huge, possibly life-changing decision. [As is choosing a school in many cases]. Often, searching parents end up soliciting information from other home-schooling parents, but they may not receive an impartial view from the home-schooling parents, who tend to defend their choices instead of giving accurate pros and cons to home-schooling. [Funny, because in this entire series of responses there hasn't been much reflection --except an insinuation that the parents might want to avoid tuition--as to why homeschooling is a word that is rolling off tongues of yeshiva parents. Might there be some real issues in yeshiva schools that parents are responding too? Social issues? Emotional issues? Family issues? Learning issues? Academic issues? Hashkafic issues? Pedagogic issues? As for homeschooling parents, I've spoken with the Jewish and non-Jewish homeschoolers and the responses regarding their reasons to homeschool and the planned duration are very diverse, ranging from "some time off" to tackle an issue to "we're going for the finish line"]. If you decide to go ahead with the home-schooling and you feel that your daughter is succeeding, it is most likely that you will continue this throughout her elementary years. You shouldn't only consider her situation at this juncture of her young life. It's important to look ahead at the big picture of her life now. [See above. There are no set rules].

There are serveral enticing reasons to home-school a child:
safety
no bullying issues
curriculum is tailor-made according to the child's strengths and challenges
anxiety and stress of homework are non-factors
child's self-esteem remains intact throughout
emotional bond between parent and child is greatly reinforced
can generate stability if a family is going through a transition or ordeal
children are generally well-rested
the obvious fact that a home-schooled child can accomplish more in one day than their peers do in a week at school

[Ahhhhhhh, some reasons, from emotional to academic].

There are also compelling reasons not to home-school a child:

they miss out on all the "extra" and memories that schools provide, including outings with a teacher, extracurricular activities, and healthy competition. Most adults don't remember the actual Gemara or Chumash that they were taught, but they do remember the way it was taught or the time that a rebbi or morah went out of their way for them. [Once again the argument that yeshiva schooling isn't really for the academics. For me, that is what school should be about: laying an academic foundation. And the rest can be supplemented outside the classroom.]

the parents may fancy themselves as great teachers, but in reality they're not. This will impede the child's progress [There are no less than adequate teachers that might be going the same, hence an interest in homeschooling?]

the lack of socialization learning to get along with peers, and understanding a teacher's social cues. Being in school also teaches a child how to succeed even when others are creating adversity, as well as how to interact, discuss and disagree with peers. [Sorry, but I'm stepping onto a soap box. . . I happen to think well facilitated discussion groups are an advantage of school, although that too could be taken into a different venue, but as the person who had to pick up the slack in nearly every, single group that I was assigned to from late elementary school through high school, I don't believe that all of the group work that many teachers love and is so fashionable is at all healthy, Rather than teaching "succeeding even when others are creating adversity." my experience is that the majority of kids learn that they can push off their responsibilities onto others, without penalty, because someone will do the work. Personally I think a lot more character development happens on the sporting field/gym than in the classroom because no one can hit the ball for you, run your leg of the 4*100, or, moving over to another venue, play your trumpet solo or recite your lines in the musical]. In addition, some children will exceed expectations that parents and teachers have of them due to healthy peer pressure. [What of negative peer pressure?]

loss of emotional support other than parents. Many adults credit a particular rebbi or morah with changing their lives. Often, a child needs to have a mentor or confidant other that their parents. Rabbeim/moros can open up topics in ruchniyus or topics within topics, that appeal to the child, which maybe the parent hasn't even heard about [many homeschoolers go work with tutors and Rebbis. And, and issue many schooling parents express is the lack of time (and money) to seek out opportunities that would help their children grow).

Chazal say in Pirkei Avos: "Kol sheruach chachomim nocheh heimenu ruach habriyos nocheh heimenu." Since Yehoshue ben Gamla's time, chadorim have been set up for talmidim. Adults who are most matzliach in life are the ones who are me'urov im habriyos.

A friend related that in his elementary school years, there was an illui in his class who was two years younger than the rest of his classmates. While this boy excelled in learning, he never learned how to communicate properly and it unfortunately affected him as an adult and as a husband and father. [Uh, marriages and parents have issues! Nonsensical argument, besides the boy was in school]. Home-schooling your daughter will cause her to be different and may create issues with her choice of high schools and seminaries later on. [Finally, the crux of the issue: being different]. Since you are blessed with a choice of several schools in you kehillah, choose the one that best suits your daughter's needs. Allow the capable menaheles and moros/teachers to succeed with your daughter along with your encouragement and close contact with the school. [How different are these schools really, as the responses aren't much different].

Hatzlacha.

Dean, Beth Jacob Seminary, Montreal

Your reason for wanting a one year respite from school for your daughter so that she can "benefit from a year away from the social pressures and stress." To me, this implies that you are running away from a problem and hoping that it will go away. Not only will it not go away, but it will fester and, like any other problem not dealth with, it will only grow in reality and in her imagination and will probably multiply itself twofold or more. [What a strange response. Yes, we need to deal with problems, but sometimes getting away from an issue is a starting point, even for adults]

If she is having stress, you must find the reason for that stress and try, to the best of your ability, to alleviate the underlying causes that brought it about. I also do not understand how removing your daughter from her society will remove her social pressures. She can only overcome such social pressures by learning how to deal with others. I also do not agree with you when you say that she will benefit from being removed from the social scene. She must try to understand what is causing the problem and try to minimize it. She may not be able to do it on her own and may need expert held. [If the environment of the school is hefker and the staff is on a different page, it will be near impossible to deal with the issue. I've heard such sad stories (public school stories too) and sometimes a fresh start is the best course. Reading in between the lines I hear the "deal with it" hashkafa which can be vastly inappropriate depending on what you are dealing with).

If one moves one's child from one school to another because the school is more difficult academically than what the child can handle, then I would agree fully with such a move, as one should always try to place one's children in school where they fit academically and where they can grow.

However, social situations are something else. Our children should be taught to get along with all types of people no matter the school. I therefore do not think that taking her out of school for a social reason will solve any of her stressful problems or any of the social pressures.

The only time that I would recommend home-schooling is when there is absolutely no other alternative to any conventional type of schooling. Examples would include living in a community which does not provide the type of hashkafah and education necessary. One of my nieces, who is from a chareidi Yerushalayim background, married a young man from London with a similiar background. They went into the field of kiruv and are living in Capetown, South Africa. Since the schools there do not provide the type of education they need for their children, their only option is home-schooling.

You say that there are several possible schools that your daughter could attend. If that is so, then you should turn over heaven and earth to find a solution to her problem and create a situation where she will be more socially adept. In the long run, the social aspects of conventional schooling are what will be ingrained into her personality. (Oh YES they will!).

More in Part 3, my final post on the subject. I have a lot of saved articles of interest. IF anyone has the letters to the editor section and if any of them address this round table, shoot me an email.

Spending What on What?!?!

Hat Tip: Haemtza

From the 5 Towns Jewish Times: File this under Money Ain't A Thing/Baal Tashichit/Obscene

I thought this was Purim Torah and I was enjoying a chuckle until I realized the article was dead serious. The Agudah is spending a quarter of a mil on a stadium mechitza to be used for a single night. Read on [emphasis mine]:

Fresh off the exciting Super Bowl win of one of its tenants, MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford, NJ, can expect increased revenue next year. However, in this challenging economy, no opportunity to develop a new source of revenue should be overlooked. The stadium found just the source it was looking for: Orthodox Jews.

Our community has unique cultural and religious requirements, so MetLife Stadium worked hand-in-hand with Agudath Israel of America to accommodate religious fans. A major breakthrough has been announced: MetLife Stadium will build a mechitzah across the entire stadium to accommodate separate seating for men and women. The mechitzah will run through all seating levels. The result: over 20,000 seats available for a women’s section.

This will mark the first time in United States history that a mechitzah of this magnitude will be built. Negotiations to build this mechitzah could not have been easy. Flimsy movable partitions are not an option when public safety is involved. This will be a solidly installed mechitzah which will be supported by beams that are drilled into the stadium’s new concrete walls. The mechitzah construction carries a price tag of no less than a quarter of a million dollars.
Will women now be able to perform “the wave” at sports events with complete privacy? Unfortunately, current plans call for the mechitzah to be dismantled after the Siyum HaShas in August. Currently, the plans are to return the stadium to the same condition it was in before the mechitzah was installed. (But maybe MetLife Stadium will alter its plans after witnessing the tremendous kiddush Hashem.) Repairing the holes in the concrete is one reason why the mechitzah carries such a high price tag.

One can debate whether a mechitzah is actually necessary at this event. Yet, to encourage all segments of the Orthodox population to attend, there is no question that having a mechitzah is important.

If I wasn't convinced before, I am now that "we" have lost our minds. And the irony can't be missed re: the dedication. “This siyum, like others before it, will honor the memory of the six million kedoshim who perished in the fires of Churban Europe. It will be a powerful testament to the eternity of Torah and the idea that it alone can preserve our past and ensure our future.”

I'd suggest organizations stop flushing money down the toilet or there won't be any kemach to preserve Torah. This is the definition of spending like a drunken solider.

(Oh, as per the Agudah's psak your ticket, priced from $18 to $1000 is tax deductible: "Regarding a tax deduction for attending the siyum, the tax experts at Agudath Israel have advised the community that purchasing seats to attend a religious siyum ceremony is no different than purchasing a High Holy Day seat in a synagogue. You may take the ticket price as a tax deduction, but not the food purchased at concession stands." I won't comment, but consult your own tax advisor.)

An Epidemic? Do I Detect Some Fear?

What an interesting and revealing (with a capital R) set of responses in the Yated Chinuch Round Table to an extremely vague inquiry from a parent on the wisdom of homeschooling a child for whom the parent deems is in need of break from school. . . and much thanks to Imamother forum participant because I have taken a long hiatus from reading the publication.

In a great show of "achdus" each and every mechanech forcibly condemns homeschooling, not just for this mother/daughter but across the board. I certainly wasn't expecting an endorsement from those who are immersed in the rather homogeneous school of thought of modern day, conventional schooling. However, the responses have left my head shaking side to side and my eyes popped wide open.

The current "yeshiva system" for all of its achievements (and there are very many to admire) simply does not always work for every child and every family, and in some cases the situation on the ground is detrimental to the student and their future. And yet in these responses there is almost no self-reflection regarding the conventional system and no commiseration with the pain of a parent who is only trying to figure out how to best help her child grow and thrive. I'd say at least two of the responses border on cruel!

Here is the vague question that begs "expound me."

What is the opinion of the panel regarding home-schooling?
I live in a community with several schools, but feel that my daughter can benefit from a year away from the social pressures and stress and would like to try this. In the experience of the distinguished mechanchim, is there a reason not to?

Let's take them one by one in two to three posts (I will start with some of the most eye-popping and work my way down). My comments will be in [brackets]. Excuse the snap in my type.

Rosh Yeshiva, Yeshiva Darchei Torah, Far Rockaway

Home-schooling is the "in" thing in today's day and age, a fad bordering on epidemic. [An epidemic? Do I detect some fear of the idea even being out in the marketplace of free ideas? Being a home-camping parent/early childhood "homeschooling" parent, I'm fairly certain it is safe to say homeschooling is NOT reaching epidemic proportions, nor will it anytime soon. I don't think we need to worry about homeschooling becoming an epidemic when it is near impossible to find close in age children that are home for the 8-10 weeks of summer].

My question is: Does your daughter want/need to be home-schooled or is this your idea? There is an interesting phenomenon. Serious baalei teshuvah are able to make up in 2-3 years what our children have studies for 15. Why, then, do our children spend so many years in yeshiva? [Just ignore this stunning inditement for a second because we won't be returning to this programming.]

There are two major components besides for ongoing learning.

One is the yedios one absorbs on a daily basis from one's rebbi/morah/menahel/gedolim, etc. There are so many nuances that make up a typical day in yeshiva/Bais Yaakov. Let's call this the osmosis part of education. There is no way in the work that your daughter will pick all this up in a home-schooling environment.

Second, there is a social aspect to being in a classroom. Learning how to play with friends, interact in after-school activities, and joining in the group are most important as well. We receive hundreds of calls over the summer asking to place children with certain rabbeim. While I seriously believe that it is narishkeitin, because all the rabbeim are wonderful [Evvvvvveeeeerrrrrryyyyyy single one? If only every employer could be so lucky!], there is nothing more important than good friends in the classroom [and does the girl have good friends?]. You are sending your daughter to a Bais Yaakov not only to learn, but, even more importantly, to make and retain friends. If your daughter has the common, everyday pressures of stress, teach her how to work with it. Don't run away from it. [First it might be helpful to explore where the stress is coming from. . . . bullying? a learning issue? A school day that is too long?]

Home-schooling should be left only for those who cannot function in a classroom- a handicapped or learning-disabled child who does not want to be placed in a public school, or a child who is cracking under pressure of stress. There is no sensible reason to take a healthy, normal girl out of her milieu. We have all seen too many karbanos [from where? There isn't a statistically significant enough yeshivish population to begin to analyze. I imagine there are no failures from the "system."]. Don't gamble with your children.

I am not even discussing the silliness of trying to avoid paying tuition. This should not be a discussion or consideration. [This is a hum zinger. . . "silliness"? Are there not families in the author's school suffering financially in this environment? Are there not families and marriages not slowly dying under growing debts and financials stresses (This is regularly spoken about by Orthodox organizations when they meet to discuss tuition)? Are there not children that might be living with extra stress from their homes because of the rat race to find that $$$$ and make ends meet? . oh, I forgot, "money ain't a thing" and should not factor into such decisions. Private school parents, a published statement like this from a very well respected Rosh Yeshiva has to make you wonder, right?]

Rebbi, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Baltimore

I can't ever see a reason to homeschool a child. Aside from academics, there is so much to be gained from school. In fact, an argument can be made that the social aspects of school are even more important than the academics.

It sounds to me like your daughter needs a strong boost of self-confidence. Speak to her teachers for the upcoming year and explain her concerns. Homeschooling is not the answer. [Emphasis mine. Ever, ever? Can you bottle this confidence because it would eliminate a lot of sleepless nights for concerned parents?]

General Editor, Artscroll/Mesorah Publications

Unless there are compelling reasons, I would be opposed to homeschooling. The writer implies that there may be such "compelling reasons," but as a general rule it is a bad idea and, in most cases, a disservice to the child.

Academically, it is not likely that homeschooling will cover the normal school curriculum, simply because the drive to learn and teach will dwindle as the weeks go by, and there is little stimulus to maintain the program. [And this is not true of some classrooms too? Silly to even argue an unsupported point] Sooner or later, the child will go back to school and then she will be at a disadvantage, thus even increasing the pressures that the parent is trying to remove. Socially, the child will be without friends. Not at first, because she'll still be friendly with her old schoolmates, but that will wear off, since she will not be part of the school environment anymore. [If this is not the stupidest statement of the entire round table, I'm not sure what is. Seems the the socialization problem might be endemic to the very system being promoted. . . and pray tell, how do military brats even have friends?]

The parents shold consult the school on how to ameliorate the "social pressure and stress," but running away from the problem will not solve it. If, indeed, the problem is as significant as the writer implies, a professional should be consulted. [We don't even know where the problem is stemming from, but I guess the possibility that it might be coming from within the walls of the school is not something we should consider!]

The Solution: Move to Houston

Needless to say, while I favor inexpensive living and I prefer Jewish life outside of New York and New Jersey, there are many reasons why people live where they live. So I'm disappointed that the OU solution to the financial woes looks to be a campaign to "Move to Houston."

Mr. Cohen points out the article Orthodox Union has found solution to Orthodoxy's problems: Houston. No doubt the title is a bit snarky.

While Houston does has far more affordable housing costs and the tuitions may be "considerably lower" than New York area day schools, they are still massive, ranging betwee $10,790 and $18,883.

A former New Yorker (with 7 children) leading the Houston Orthodox marketing campaign states:

With the number of children the average Orthodox family has, what are you going to need to make to pay your bills, live comfortably and not be on scholarship? In New York, it’s in the hundreds of thousands of dollars,” said [M], who has seven children. “In Houston, you can do it for under $100,000.”

Seven children in school at $15,000 a head average is $105,000 by the way.

I always recommend taking out a calculator before making declarations.

And a P.S. Houston weather is not a selling point in my opinion.

PSA: Torah Home Education Conference Registration Opens

PSA and speaker lineup is below. Thanks for sending.

We have opened registration for the Fourth Torah Home Education Conference!

You will spend the day learning from veteran home educators, meeting other Jews interested in living a family-based learning lifestyle, and be able to peruse and purchase homeschooling materials from local and national educational vendors.

We are proud to bring you:

Evelyn Krieger, the author of the popular new novel, One is Not a Lonely Number, and veteran homeschooling mother.

Mrs Deborah Beck talking about Integrating Kodesh and Chol: Secular Subjects and Torah - Two Sides of the Same Coin.

Mrs. Robin Alberg presenting Remaining Focused In an Age of Digital Distractions.

Mrs. Susan Lapin teaching us the idea of VeShinantam Levanecha: Defining Torah Home Education.

A Veteran Homeschoolers Panel: Addressing Key Questions Including "How Can I Teach What I Never Learned?"

Mr Max Masinter leading a group discussion on Whether the Homeschooling Community Should Promote Homeschooling as a Lifestyle Choice to Address Communal Issues.

and several speakers/topics TBA.

Shabbos hospitality is available with the possibility of a melava d'malka afterwards.

The conference will be Sunday May 6, 2012 at the Park Heights JCC in Baltimore, MD. Registration will begin at 8:15am and the conference will begin at 9 am.

To find out more and register for the conference, please visit http://torahhomeeducation.eventbee.com

We look forward to meeting you at the conference!

Appreciating the Two Month Salary Rule

Until recently I have thought the De Beers marketing campaign 2 months salary guideline for an appropriate cost of a engagement/wedding ring to be a ridiculous standard. Lately I'm beginning to appreciate a benchmark based on the groom's current salary.

Yet another set of takanot are being reported in effect. Once again they claim to "save" families thousands of dollars. My father would respond, you aren't saving when you are spending. And spend they do. Even at the reduced rates, families of the listed Chassidish sects are instructed to spend a hefty sum: gifts should not exceed $2,675. Yes, this amount is much reduced, as is are all the other myriads of expenses from shadchanus fees ($990) to flowers for Shabbos ($135) to the actually costs of the wedding.

Of interest: my past post A Study in Wedding Takanot Differences.

I believe these takanot are to help curtail the debt incurred upon engagement/marriage. Yet benchmarking the spending, even if it is far lower, does not cut debt. Those without the funds will still be without the funds. Which brings me back to a regular message, the culture of debt is the real culprit.

NASI: The Kick Off and the Endorsers

As per Matzav publishing a NASI press release, NASI is kicking off their program with over 70 shadchanim and they have published a list of Rabbis endorsing their program. Personally, I'd like to hear from some of the endorsers because there are some names that surprise me.

I continue to believe the program defies all logic and the idea of making shidduchim more expensive strikes me as cruel. I'm not certain what the current fee scale is to be a part of the program, but in any case the fees are very high. I'm also certain that the endorsing Rabbis are aware of the lack of cash of so many families and I simply cannot wrap my head around how this can be endorsed as a solution without peer reviewed studies on the underlying issue (the "age gap"), some unbiased market research, etc.

But They Aren't Funding EVERYTHING!

There is a new tuition blog, Yeshiva Sanity, that I'm keeping an eye on. One early post that caught my eye asks "Are WE the Problem?" Well, of course we are the problem and have been since the days of Mitzrayim, but the implied solution, a more centralized funding solution, isn't the real reason why the Catholic Church or the Church of Latter Day Saints can and do provide a low cost education.

As referenced in the article, the Mormon Church subsidizes the cost of attendance at Brigham Young University (BYU) which is practically "free" all things considered at $2,280 for church members and $4,560 for non-members. Yep, a private university with public university pricing even for non-church members. Likewise, the average tuition of Catholic diocese schools averages approximately $3,400 annually, with the actual cost averaging nearly $5,400, a nearly $2,000 subsidy for school attendees.

One might think, wow, if we were only unified, we could provide a more affordable product too: "If only we had the sense of community that the Mormons and Catholics had we would less of a tuition crisis. People whose kids have grown up and have the most means and least expenses would be subsidizing the younger parents who are mostly at the beginnings of their careers and can least afford to pay." [sic]

I fully believe that with greater coordination, savings could be realized, but those who compare us to them with the belief that if we only cooperated that we could come closer to the BYU result are missing something very fundamental: both groups have put their eggs in limited baskets.

I hope I have my information correct, but here is what I have gathered from various sources, including people I've spoken with:

The Church of LDS is highly centralized. Young Mormon students attend Sunday school and there are numerous social activities within the wards (local churches for which membership is assigned based on residence) and temples (regional). Education becomes more formalized in high school as youngsters attend "seminary" which takes place before public schooling. In areas with religious release time, there are paid teachers. In areas with smaller populations, schooling is provided by (unpaid) lay leaders before public schooling hours or through home study groups. While there are some day schools in the Pacific Islands and in Mexico, in America there is no day schooling movement to speak of. Mormon children predominantly attend public schools. Nor is there a subsidized Mormon Camping Movement with its own fundraising, infrastructure, and costs.

Following high school, post-secondary formal Mormon education generally includes a 1-2 year mission for young men and women (and they pay for the privilege, although the church subsidizes the umbrella structure and going on a mission is more popular among the male set). BYU is a popular choice for young Mormon students, but there are also "institutes of religion" serving the single, Mormon ages 18-30. Many of the institutes are located adjacent to college campuses and there are public universities that are highly popular among young Mormons that do not attend BYU or one of the other BYU branches.

From what I can gather, the Mormon Church has put their eggs in a few baskets. The wards and temples provide the K-12 set with Sunday education, Seminary education, and social activities that promote social identification and attachment. The umbrella structure for missions provides young men and women with an opportunity to develop their lay leadership skills. The institutes serve the educational needs and social needs of the young adults. And BYU is the flagship institution, a desirable place for students to attend college for complete immersion and meeting their match (about half the student body is married).

To briefly touch on the Catholic Church, their educational eggs are concentrated on the K-12 through diocese schools. Non-diocese schools can be quite expensive and Catholic Universities cost a fortune, just as other private universities.

Within the Orthodox Jewish world, we have an educational basket for every age bracket from 2 years old on up, and each bracket is subsidized in some way, shape, or form through fundraising, community infrastructure, etc, to say nothing about the expectation that one participate in the non-unified system from the age of 3 on up. We have preschool. We have preschool day camp. We have day school/cheder/yeshiva/bais yaakov. We have day camp. We have sleepaway camp. We have adventure and travel camps. We have boarding high schools for boys and girls. We have the year or two in Israel. We have beis medrash programs. We have social-educational youth group programs. We have outreach programs of every flavor and outreach yeshivot/seminaries. We have Jewish Universities (YU, Touro). We have college seminaries with relationships for degrees within the daled amot. We have Kollels galore. We have community Kollels too. We have shul and yeshiva sponsored avot u'banim and other learning programs. We have kollel dirshu with a stipend. We have learning within shuls with its own infrastructure and adult education institutes with their own corporate structure. (Did I miss any educational program that is supported directly or indirectly with donor money?)

In other words, even if we were to centralize/coordinate our K-12 efforts, we are funding just about everything under the sun and we have a lot of eggs in a ton of baskets. Therefore I don't think we can expect the BYU result at YU.

Shabbat Shalom.