Am I too tough on the Girls?
A reader thought that I was being too rough on the girls who only want to date learners in my post "Are these the Middot we want to Encourage?"
In short the poster wrote, "I agree with most of this post, but I must take issue with your lack of sympathy for the girls. You have to realize that these girls are trained . . .to believe that (a) only a guy who is sitting and learning is worthy of respect, and (b) the only way for them to achieve a high level in olam haba is to help support a guy who is sitting and learning. Yes, there are some girls who can go through the bais yaakov system and see through this -- but for many of them, the constant hammering of it sinks in, and their desire to marry a learning guy is not merely a preference. The root of this problem is with an educational system whose major goal is not to produce good frum Jews who are shomer mitzvos and have good middos, but to produce guys who will sit and learn and girls who will support them."
Please make no mistake, I find the demands of a large enough handful of future husbands on their future wife's family, the future wife, and more, to be absolutely horrendous. I hold a long outdated belief that it is the husband's job to support the very basic needs of his wife and family. And, for the life of me, I can't understand why, if it is such a great z'chut to support Torah, why the parents of the future husband are bankrolling their sons, rather than looking for others to bankroll them.
So, why do I seem to come down so tough on the girls? Why do I come down on the girls so hard, especially when they are purported to be the victims of the "shidduch crisis?"
Well, simply put, the constant whining makes me tired. I hear so many girls and parents of girls whine that their daughters cannot get dates [with those who meet a huge laundry list of requirements].
I guess I prefer honesty: E.g., "I would rather be single at this stage of my life, than date a man who makes less than $X a year." Or, "I would rather be single than date a man who is not learning, or only plans to learn for x amount of time." Or, "I would rather be single than date a man who works in such-and-such a field."
It may very well be that even with expanding horizons and agreeing to date someone who only meets half the laundry list of requirement that there would be many girls sitting in the wings waiting for dates, but somehow I doubt the "shidduch crisis" would be as great.
Now, while the honesty of certain boys can be a real "turn off," I have to give them credit for their honesty. What I hear is, "I am only willing to marry if my future wife is [skinny, hot, a "breadwinner," and/or comes with a silver spoon in her mouth]." There is no whining, just a statement of what they are willing to accept or not accept. And, nobody asks me to feel terrible for them when they remain single past their prime!
Do I like the demands of some of these future husbands? Absolutely not. Are these the middot we want to encourage? From me, you will hear a loud and unequivocal NO!
But, at least these demanding guys are honest. So, I have to give them credit for that.
So, what do you think? Am I too tough on the girls? Or, am I just doing a service when I tell these girls who claim that they want to be married to expand their horizons?
17 comments:
I don't know if girls are actually dishonest in expressing themselves, only that they don't disclose everything. Boys feel no shame in expressing their requirments for looks, whereas girls have to couch it only in terms of a preference for someone "tall". Also for the code words for a girls who wants someone who makes a living are "parnassah" -- it's not frum to mention a career or job.
See my prior posts on this issue. I think that there are a number of isssues here that your quotes illustrate that unfortunately require addressing in both our yeshivos and seminaries. Here is a small list which IMO can be easily expanded:
1)Let's assume a girl wants a guy who is a learner. What kind of learner-potential Gadol, mchanech or someone with zero plans except an expectation of support?
2)why are midos apparently, which purportedly are the subject of sifrei mussar, etc viewed as less important by some than whether the shidduch is the equivalant of a corporate M&A?
3)Looks are important and establish an initial attraction. Yet, in the long run, are looks a substitute for a relationship predicated upon sharing the good and tough times, open communications and giving to each other at all times?
Part of this is just the nature of guys and girls. Guys have no problem coming out and saying certain things, while girls will tend to beat around the bush more. I don't think you're being too tough on the girls, it's the system that needs fixing. Guys have the cards stacked in their favor unfairly because the system teaches these girls they can't settle for anything less than the future gadolahador. It's the indoctrination process that must be stopped, how is the question. Perhaps parents can help by stepping up to educate kids about what values are really important. Overcoming the mess of a system we have now takes work, but it may be on the parents who see through the smokescreens to teach their children.
Since Jews by and large are intelligent, can't we assume that, regardless of the attempted "indoctrination", most of the parents and marriageable children know the real situation and its trade-offs? What unusual insight does it take to know that only 5% of the girls will get to marry the "best" 5% of the guys?
Shouldn't the traditional language of the ketubah be changed if it is the wife who will be supporting the husband?
One thing to remember is that the boy who declares he intends to learn for 3 years is not necessarily better at it than the one who declares an intention of learning for 2. Also plans do change once reality and children come into the picture.
FWIW, I don't think that the intention to learn for 2 as opposed to 3 years is all that important. In contrast, IMO, the real issues are whether the youg man has (1) demonstrated any promise whatsoever as a Ben Torah towards becoming either (a) a Gadol or (2) a future in the Klei Kodesh as opposed to either ( 1) having no plam whatsoever or (2) taking up space in a Beis Medrash when he might be better suited working for a living.
Steve, I really appreciate your insights (and Mazal Tov BTW). Unfortunately, there are standard accepted answers that the boys know that the girls will accept and knowing what questions to ask and what signs to look for during the dating process is a MUST.
And, possibly the topic of a future post. :)
Thanks for your kind words. I think that one of the keys to a solution to the shidduch crisis is realizing that the "standard accepted answers" are a kind of ritualization of emotions that basically are a code and guide just for the basics. I remain skeptical whether these answers shed any insight into what is a boy's aims, insights and midos, or lack thereof. IMO, there is nothing wrong with allowing these issues to be developed by a young man and woman in the course of the dating process, presumably and preferably the relationship has progressed beyond the "three strikes and you're out" and back to your shadchan.
Steve - since you just made a shidduch (mazal tov), maybe you should post on 'how to make a shidduch for your child'.
Nu ? :)
I don't claim or pretend to be an expert on this issue which IMO involves the fifth volume of SA-common sense and checking for midos tovos even more so than lomdus or yichus.
However, I do think that a slight dose of reality and understanding of the various types of young men that populate our yeshivos is an important first step. I also believe that engaging in hashkafic wars with a child who has become even a tad more frum than a parent is very counterproductive.
These facts being a given, every young woman who thinks that she is capable of living a kollel or similar lifestyle must look in the mirror and ask herself is how much stress she can handle. IOW, some seminaries view this lifestle as the example par exellance of "Chashivus HaTorah" . However, that should not mean every young woman should undertake it, if it means that she will be undertaking a stress level that she just will find too difficult to handle, especially if either her parents or in laws just aren't able to or are philosophically opposed to it. Unfortunately, too many young women view anything less than a full time learner as the goal without even thinking of who is the young man, what is his goals, etc. The very laudable and commendable "learner/earner" is too often and IMO wrongly inculcated as a bdieved-despite the fact that we all know many Baale batim who fit this criteria very well in their committments to Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim. In essence "w**k" has been rendered an expletive deleted in far too many of our communities, both by yeshivos and seminaries.
OTOH,let's say that you are vehemently against supporting a son in law in a kollel. Yet, somehow, a future son in law comes along who is a star and who you have "checked out" as such via his rebbes and other sources in a Beis Medrash. Wouldn't supporting such a person, even if it was a stress, be the equivalent of supporting a future doctor, lawyer or PhD candidate in an arcane discipline?
Again-I don't have any expertise other than being a parent who participated in the chinuch of his children-as opposed to totally obviating that role to the yeshivas. I also think that these issues and their importance obviously vary from family to family within the same or different communities and hashkafos.
I think you are missing part of the picture. It's not only that these girls are trained to only want learners - it's also that they are trained to be frum, aidel, Stepford wives. And therefore, even were they to "lower their standards" and try to date YU type guys or really anyone with a career, they might be surprised to discover that such guys aren't interested in THEM. The qualities that make a girl a prize catch in the yeshiva world (saccarine aidelkeit, yichus, quietness) are not going to make them a prize catch to non kollel guys.
Lamedzayin-Some of the girls I know who only want learners would actually do quite fine with a working YU grad.
"The qualities that make a girl a prize catch in the yeshiva world (saccarine aidelkeit, yichus, quietness) are not going to make them a prize catch to non kollel guys."
Spoken like someone who doesn't know too much about the UO world.
Spoken like someone who largely grew up in the UO world, actually. Don't assume my background.
One other somewhat related issue is that many BYs and seminaries indoctrinate their students with is that a shidduch with a YU grad or RIETS musmach is treif/passul. Once again, we see urban myths and old stereotypes about YU and RIETS at work in this process that should have been discarded a long time ago. One wonders why these BYs and sems don't present the issue as looking for the best boy, regardless of where he is learning
It seems to me that the key difference between supporting a learner and supporting a medical or legal student is that once the son-in-law is a doctor or lawyer he will make enough to support the family, by himself or with help from his wife's salary, and may, in fact, be able to help his in-laws should they need it.
The full-time learner doesn't normally graduate to being a paid learner.
I guess my big question, looking in from the freier part of the pool, is how does this continue? Even if all the parents in the present generation somehow manage to support their children forever, how can the children possibly give to their children? The parents who have money, I assume, worked for it. Sooner or later, someone's going to have to earn some more.
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