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Wednesday, January 12, 2011

Guest Post: Torah Umesorah Presidents Conference

Once again, I am thankful to readers who take their time to contribute to this forum. This morning a reader wrote me with some comments and observations on the Torah Umesorah Presidents Conference held in Miama over the past weekend. Guest post follows:

Hello, I thought that you might be interested in some observations on the Torah Umesorah Presidents conference held in Miami over the last weekend. The conference targets executive directors and lay leaders of day schools and focuses on non-curriculum issues.

Obviously the affordability issue was a point of discussion but apparently far less than last year where most schools were in real crisis positions. Most schools (that survived) seem to be in stable/manageable positions this year.

There were a few seminars on better business management of schools with a focus on leveraging the expertise of the community for purchasing, specialized services, etc and sharing of capital and service costs across institutions.

Although there was a lot of 'rah rah Torah!' rallying of the troops, here was also a small undercurrent of recognition that the current system is still unsustainable without some major changes.

There seems to be considerable optimism that the current political climate is as favorable as it has ever been for introduction of vouchers, tuition tax-deductibility or similar, and there was much discussion of the lobbying and political participation required to get there.

There were also a few (non-Torah Umesorah) invited speakers who proposed that the only real solution is for Jewish philanthropists who do not currently donate to Jewish causes to be convinced take up Jewish education as a cause. It was made clear that this would only be possible as a multi-denominational effort (i.e. the Orthodox movement would only have access to a significant donation from a Spielberg/Katzenberg/Zuckerberg-type as part of a 'movement' that would also be funding Solomon Shechter, community Hebrew schools, etc). A long the same lines, the successful low-pressure 'out-of town' Kiruv movement has developed somewhat of an uneasy natural alliance with the UJA and local Federations who need nominal Jews to remain slightly educated about their own religion in order to remain in the community another generation. There was was a presentation by the Kohelet Foundation, which funds non-Orthodox day school tuition on the condition of parental involvement in a special Partners in Torah program designed to increase parental valuation of traditional Jewish learning.

Disappointingly (to me), other than a few small-session questions, there was no discussion of the non-education lifestyle costs and opportunity costs in the Orthodox community and the resultant effect on the sustainability of schools. The biggest indicator of this was the food at the conference, which was ridiculous in its frequency, quantity and presentation (think New York wedding shmorg for every Shabbat and weekday meal including kiddush, breakfasts, afternoon snacks and a poolside melaveh malkah bbq). Although it's likely most of the costs were underwritten, the (at least) $150 over-spent on food for 400 participants could have provided full subsidy for 6 children or saved one school on the brink of bankruptcy. The menu at an education conference should at the very least be subject to the Agudah's wedding cost guidelines.

80 comments:

Anonymous said...

In addition to the food costs, I also wonder if there could have been a cheaper venue than Miami in January. Perhaps Buffalo or Cleveland or Detroit.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the leftovers were donated to a food bank or something.

JS said...

"Most schools (that survived) seem to be in stable/manageable positions this year."

Get ready for traditional 5-7% yearly tuition increases to come back in vogue.

"a small undercurrent of recognition that the current system is still unsustainable without some major changes"

Sure. Why be a downer at a fancy conference?

"There seems to be considerable optimism that the current political climate is as favorable as it has ever been for introduction of vouchers..."

Of course. Why solve your own problems when someone else can solve them for you? The joke is even if there were vouchers, it would solve nothing. The underlying system is broken and reducing costs per child by even $3k is meaningless in the long run - your cost for 4 kids goes from $60k to $48k. Whoop de do.

Just further confirmation that leadership has no interest, no intention, and no ability to fix anything other than find other sources of funds in the most cynical manner possible - asking for vouchers while calling for fiscal responsibility and stopping handouts and asking for non-Orthodox donations while refusing to acknowledge non-Orthodox Jews (and even MO Jews) in meaningful ways.

Alexis said...

When are people going to get over the idea that vouchers are the solution?

Orthonomics said...

Alexis-I got over that idea long ago. But, it is always fun to dream. . . . . .


Anonymous-This might sound cruel, but I personally don't think it matters where the food goes after the fact. Sure, it is lovely to donate food. But why spend the money in the first place?

It is like a person with a spending issue patting themselves on the back for donating a bunch of cell phones or designer shoes he/she should have never puchased in the first place.

WE have an overindulgence problem in the food arena. That is one thing that is pretty clear to me and my guest poster noted that the quantity of food at some of these events is just over the top.

Miami Al said...

JS,

I disagree, Vouchers are a MAJOR game changer in Yeshiva finances. Best case scenario vouchers are going to be in the 50% - 75% of what the system pays to educate students (down here, charters get 95%, automatic savings for charter usage), looking at marginal costs, assume a $3000/student voucher.

Let us take a hypothetical dayschool w/ 500 students, Tuition = $12000, so total "billed" tuition is $6M. Let's assume a 60% collection rate after scholarship/bad debt, the school collects $3.6M in tuition, or $7200/student.

If this school now gets a $3000/student voucher, that's $1.5M in voucher money.

Now, if the school was concerned about parents, it now only needs to collect $2.1M in tuition after vouchers for the same budget. Now, if we assume we can collect the same 60% rate (most scholarship is full scholarship), the school needs to bill $3.5M to get that, or $7000/student. Tuition has DROPPED from $12000 to $7000, or a savings of $5000.

If we assume that SOME of the scholarship families weren't full, our pay rate might climb to 80% (a family paying $6000 WAS 50%, now is paying 85%, a family paying $8500 WAS 71%, now is 100% and saving money)... if tuition collected climbs from 60%->80%, to collect $2.1M only needs to bill tuition of $2,625,000, or $5250/student.

Obviously, your individual day school situation varies. But if your school is collecting 50%-70% of tuition billed, than a voucher equalling 25% of current tuition could drop tuition 60% or MORE.

Now, in reality, you wouldn't drop tuition, you'd give the teachers/admins a raise, but vouchers are ABSOLUTELY a game changer.

Also, if you collect 50% of tuition, and costs go up at 3%, tuition goes up at 6%. If you collect 80% of tuition, then if costs go up 3% then tuition goes up 3.75%... a much easier differential to swallow... since traditionally US Wage Growth = Inflation + 1%, you'd have tuition going up slower than wages.

Orthonomics said...

I probably sound a bit flippant in my comment to anon. Just want to add a point. Catered food is very expensive. I'm sure that if it was donated, it was appreciated and enjoyed. However, I think it better to separate our own indulgence from our chessed.

Meal after meal that resembles a wedding shmorg is indulgent. Indulgences will certainly be enjoyed by the less fortunate. But, ultimately, if one wants to concentrate on tzedakah and chessed, the question should be what they need and are best served by.

tesyaa said...

Weirdly, I am wondering if over-the-top food service at Jewish events isn't the glue that holds the community together. Sure, we can talk about shared beliefs and common goals and serving Hashem, but sociologically, what really holds a tight-knit group together are communal bonds. And what cements bonds more than eating and greeting together? Less food=less communal bonding.

(Sure, I know our ancestors didn't have anything like the food we know today, but food was clearly important to them - just look at how important extra and special foods were for Shabbos and Yom Tov, even for people who were practically penniless).

So is the over-the-top food a bad thing? Is it a waste of money and resources? (The thought of wasting tons of food personally makes me sick, but...) Well, is a set of tfillin a waste of money and resources? It depends on how you look at it. The tfillin might be halachically mandated, but it's pretty clear that without community, there's no such thing as Orthodox Judaism. So perhaps in our wealthy day & age, we are ensuring continuity of our community with sushi and carving stations.

Orthonomics, I wrote this before seeing your comment at 2:40. I look forward to lots of reaction. My comment is based on sociological observations, not halachic or other religious factors, nor on economic factors.

Dave said...

Vouchers, even if implemented, are not going to solve the problems.

First, existing Voucher programs have income limits. That will leave out many Modern Orthodox families, but would be one more perk for the Kollel Families (or for anyone working off the books/living on programs/all-of-the-above).

Second, existing Voucher programs require that the Voucher be the entirety of tuition. You don't get a credit toward tuition, the school has to accept the Voucher as all of it (and if you look at the Milwaukee rules, they go into extensive detail on fees that cannot be charged to avoid people gaming the system).

Many voucher proposals have included blocking access (at least initially) to people who have already opted out of the public schools -- whether that would stay ot not I don't know.

Finally, I would expect to see a lot more oversight over schools receiving public money, both in terms of finances and in terms of what is taught (because of the political nightmare that is a publically funded Madrassa).

Miami Al said...

Dave,

Who knows. The creation of vouchers is NOT based upon prudent economic factors, it's based upon political coalitions.

A 60 vote Democratic Senate led to Health Care Reform, even though what passed doesn't resemble what was proposed by Senator Obama or look ANYTHING like prior Democratic efforts, it was modeled on GOP state capitalism efforts from the 90s.

A 2/3+ GOP State legislature with a GOP governor can create whatever it wants, there are a bunch of those right now.

The DC Voucher program was income based and wildly successful, and it was removed.

I personally think that the Charter school solution gives plenty of school choice without the mess that a voucher system would bring, but if the voucher as a credit were passed, it would massively change the economic realities.

However, if ALL it does is mean a $3k voucher for the actually poor kids that are now free, that's nice, but it's NOT a game changer.

Anonymous said...

tessya: Very interesting comment and observation. I entirely agree that breaking bread together is an important bonding and community building experience. Not just for jews, but for all groups and communities. However, I do not agree that means over the top food expenditures -- you can have the same bonding/community building experience over a weinie roast, pizza or bagels and cream cheese as you can over sushi, carving stations and viennese tables.

Anonymous said...

I’ve kept quiet until this point but Miami Al’s comments force me to respond. Unfortunately, his math cuts both ways. Prudent political calculations MUST include an honest assessment of the economic climate dictating those conditions.
He is correct in his assessment that today’s political climate is very favorable toward private school, religious vouchers, etc… However, today’s political climate is also functioning under a “cut-spending” mentality. There is no rush to enact new and costly programs, especially as states and cities cut services to cover large and increasing budget deficits.
Under the current “pay-go” environment, vouchers would constitute an obligation upon the government and, therefore, require proper budgetary offsetting. Let’s look at Al’s Scenario. He outlines a situation where a school of 500 students would receive $1.5 million in vouchers. Enacting a voucher program for those 500 students (call is a small pilot program) would require finding $1.5 million in savings elsewhere (read: budget \ service cuts) or increasing revenue by $1.5 million (read: raise taxes). Find me a policy-maker who is willing to do either—especially to fund a program for religious schools for a community that is already seen as a leech on society.
(And I say this as a tax policy lobbyist—so I do have some knowledge of the politics involved.)
Its time for the orthodox community to wake up and get real about education. They must recognize that secular education is as important, if not more so, than religious education. You want to keep religious schools open and functioning generation after generation? Take the necessary steps to create wealth inside of your community, and that wealth will remain there.

Abba's Rantings said...

"It was made clear that this would only be possible as a multi-denominational effort (i.e. the Orthodox movement would only have access to a significant donation from a Spielberg/Katzenberg/Zuckerberg-type as part of a 'movement' that would also be funding Solomon Shechter, community Hebrew schools, etc)."

and are we willing to take the children of those intermarried kofrim into our school as well, or do we just want their money while we spit at them from behind?

Chava said...

Tesyaa, very interesting comment about bonding over food. But people don't need that much food! I think we don't know what excess is, we don't even know we are being wasteful because we have always known excess. What I consider necessary my Depression era parents consider a shocking waste.

Abba's Rantings said...

AL:

very interesting point that vouchers have the potential to lower tuition considerably more than the value of the voucher itself.

however, i'm still skeptical that schools would pass the savings on the the parents.

also, i don't understand how torah umesorah types would ever be willing to acquiese to all the restrictions that they would likely be subject to under a voucher program, e.g., curriculum oversight, teacher licensing, open admissions, etc.

Chava said...

To Anon. Tax Lobbyist - Thank you for your lucid comments. I am against vouchers because they are yet another government program and they do not help people in the yeshiva community generate prosperity. Instead, they simply become more complacent within their subsidized, government-entitled world. This allows an ever more enclosed world detached from the reality of earning a living and making accommodations with secular life. People who expect to work have to expect to master secular subjects. They have to interact with people unlike themselves, which is humanizing. If the chareidi community is allowed to keep itself away from the rest of America to this degree, they will continue to have no secular learning and no work for men. There are many reasons to avoid yet another government entitlement for the chareidi community. Sorry I am so inarticulate.

Miami Al said...

Abba's Ranting:

I don't think that we're going to get much in the way of vouchers. Approximately 11% of students are in private schools (down from 20% before crash), of which 80% are parochial schools.

Any pro-religious school, anti-teacher's union voucher program HAS to deal with the economic reality that you are creating an economic liability for that 11% of the student body that is currently 0. That's probably NOT a budget buster if the voucher is less than 50% of the marginal cost spent, but might be at 100%.

Any budget "scoring" has to predict how many children from the other 89% become private school kids with the voucher... i.e. do you save $6k in marginal costs with a $3k voucher, so a net savings of $3k per private school transfer? Then you need to move from 11% private to 22% private to break even.

Programs designed to control costs might require a transfer from the public school system. This would basically eliminate private Kindergarten, and presumably a phase in for the legacy students, that might keep the cost down.

However, given the all or nothing demands of the Orthodox community, I can't see stomaching a year of public kindergarten regardless of incentives.

I don't think it will happen.

I DO however, understand WHY vouchers ARE a silver bullet. A small per-student voucher can dramatically change the mathematics of budgeting.

tesyaa said...

Chava, I feel the same way about waste (as I indicated in my first comment).

Anon 3:41, of course you can bond over bagels and cream cheese. Expectations certainly plays a role. When I go to a bris, I'm very satisfied with a bagel; when I go to a dinner charging $100+ per person, a bagel would be a disappointment (although I have participated in many dinner campaigns when I have not attended the dinner at all!) A wedding also conjures up certain expectations, though they will be different based on the venue and circumstances of the families, so I wouldn't judge, regardless of my expectations. However: if someone's expectations about food are not met, they'll be disappointed. Disappointment means less bonding, or negative bonding.

Our whole lives, not just our food, are an example of excess compared to our parents' or grandparents' generations. My parents even today think that running the central air and cooling a house to 74 degrees in summer is a shocking waste. Same with heat; I remember (in the 1980s) being told to set thermostat to 49 degrees if I were the last one going to bed. (I don't think the house ever got that cold).

What I was trying to say (which I think some of you understood) was that lavish food service is an investment in Orthodox Jewish continuity. Whether it is in tune with Jewish religious values is besides the point.

JS said...

Al,

I see the point you're making, but I don't think it would pan out in reality. I'm not even going to discuss whether vouchers would go to parents making $100k+ or to parents with kids not currently in public school. Let's just assume everyone gets $3k/child.

The numbers and math you're putting forth assumes the schools have a strong handle on their finances. I don't know how true that is. Like the broader discussion of what is the impact that scholarships have on full-payers (do full-payers subsidize scholarships? do wealthy donors subsidize everyone?), I think the schools don't really know exactly what is coming in and out of the budget. I think a lot just see they can't meet their bills or can't accept as many families as they want to who can't pay in full and go hit up the donors with a line like "the electricity will be shut off" or "without your donation, we'd have to turn away yankele and sarale. You can't meaningfully reduce tuition if you have no idea how tuition should be properly calculated.

More likely the schools would just keep tuition the same and donors would be less likely to give, or the schools would try to get donors to help pay down the mortgage or establish an endowment (one can hope, right?). Point is, no short-term benefit, maybe a long-term benefit. It's not even clear if schools with paid down mortgages are cheaper than schools with gigantic mortgages - I have yet to see any data on this. I know schools with brand-new buildings and ones which have been in the same building for 20+ years and they have roughly the same tuition and both have required building funds.

In reality, the schools have no incentive to lower tuition when they are oversubscribed and there are parents willing to pay the price no matter what - no matter the stress or marital discord or not saving for retirement, driving old cars, etc. So, maybe vouchers just result in more scholarships and more "extras" like more administrators, more therapists, fancier buildings and facilities, more teacher's aides, etc.

But, I fear your solution is far too rational for the yeshivas.

Mike S. said...

Food waste is not a specifically Jewish problem. My profession has had me at any number of professional meetings some of which last two weeks. The food is always lavish and plentiful to excess. One nice side benefit of kashrut is that I can lose 10 pounds living off reheated TV dinners at a meeting where everyone else gains 15.

Anonymous said...

The schools are in for another financial shock when oil prices hit $110 a barrel and stay that way for some time in next couple of years.

Anonymous in Teaneck said...

@Miami Al - You wrote:

"Approximately 11% of students are in private schools (down from 20% before crash), of which 80% are parochial schools."

I'm not sure where you're getting that 20% before-the-crash number, but the National Center for Education Statistics reports:

"The percentage of students in private elementary and secondary schools declined from 11.4 percent in 1997 to 10.7 percent in 2007."

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=65

Avi said...

JS - I'm in the "vouchers will never happen" camp myself, but I'm also a firm believer that the perfect is the enemy of the good. You dismiss $3K savings per child as not enough. I say at least that would be a start. What good would $3K per child do? Exactly as you say, it would reduce tuition from $60K to $48K. There are plenty of families who might squeak by with a $48K bill who cannot handle $60K. We'd all like to see tuition cut in half. But can we start with getting tuition down rather than up?

JS said...

Avi,

Don't get me wrong, $12k is real money, I'm not pooh-poohing $12k. But, if there's no back-end change in the schools, if the schools don't change how they operate, it's likely to only be a 4-5 year savings for parents. After all, tuition traditionally goes up around 5-7% a year. So, assume 5% to be generous and you have $48k, $50.4k, $53k, $55.5k, $58.3k, $61.3k. Again, dialing back the clock 5 years of tuition increases is certainly a good thing, but it's just temporary.

Any infusion of money is just temporary. There needs to be systematic changes made if tuition is actually going to come down and stay down. Right now, the way MO yeshivas are built and run I don't see how they can ever do that. Fancy buildings, loads of administrators, small class sizes, lots of support staff, lots of extracurriculars, etc. cannot possibly be done on the cheap. There's no desire to cut services and it's not clear if people would even still want the schools if services were cut. So, I'm not sure what the solution is.

It's all well and good to talk about vouchers or purchasing power, but this doesn't fix any underlying problems.

Who knows? Maybe the solution is more money, but in the form of better jobs, job training, better incentives for those on scholarship to go and work, better day care options so people can work, etc.

Anonymous said...

I am the original guest poster:

Abba's Rantings:
My out of town Torah Umesorah-affiliated school DOES take children of reform conversions as long as they are being raised Jewish.

Nevertheless, the idea was to get mega-donors to give to Jewish education in general to give Orthodoxy (even a small) share of of the overall pool.

Anonymous said...

So the idea is to say, "Its not our responsibility to care for and take care of our own, its someone else's (the new crop of mega-donors) to do that."

And what do we do when that pool is exhausted?

Why do we refuse to take responsibility for our own future?

Kulanu Achim said...

Love your blog!
I've kept quiet over the months...no, YEARS of these tuition posts because I've felt that raising a family in Israel is not relevant to your unique problem and that any comment might just make all of your readers feel bad about their person situations and financial distresses due to tuition bloat.
But someone along the line usueally references the unstated but obvious, and I guess I'll volunteer this time:
I have 5 children (5th grade, 3rd grade, 1st grade, presechool and a 2 year old in daycare). Only the preschooler comes home at 1:30; the others return home at 4 PM. My school is EXCELLENT (I'm a very involved parent who has done her research about different schooling options in the country; we chose our community because of the wonderful schools.)
I've taught in a highly- regarded yeshiva day school in America, and I have intimate knowledge of the quality of the education provided by Torah u'Mesorah affiliated schools. I also teach in a university-affiliated gap year program here, and so I'm very familiar with the caliber of student who is emerging from a day school education (so maybe one of your crises -- yeshiva day school students who receive a woefully sub-par education -- is mine as well)

My yearly tuition costs for five children?
$7500.
Quality of education received?
Well beyond their peers in America (we do supplement their English-language education with additional tutoring, bringing the total annual tuition to $8200.)

As a seasoned educator who seeks out a quality education for my large family, I am extremely satisfied with what we've found. Baruch Hashem!

And before I get dismissed as irrelevant to the issue because my lifestyle is so different from yours, please note that educating your young adult children towards aliyah might work to mitigate future crises in the Jewish education scene in your country.

Abba's Rantings said...

KULANU ACHIM:

i agree that american day schools do a poor job with limude kodesh education. i also agree that we and our kids belong with you in israel.

but if you are going to tout the tuition savings, then please share

1) the average israeli salary
2) the average israeli tax rate on income, capital gains, sales (VAT), etc.
3) price of quality shoes for your kids once a year
4) cost of new car for a famliy with 5 kids
5) cost per square foot of real estate in an area with a good job market and with excellent schools like you describe

Miami Al said...

Abba's Ranting:

Keep in mind, Israel's per capita income has mostly caught up with Europe's, it's below that of the United States, it's comparable to most parts of Europe. Israel is NOT, economically, a third world country anymore. It is a European country with a European-style economic system.

That said, where you economically see a MAJOR difference is in "professional salaries" like doctors, lawyers, actuaries, and accountants. These are highly paid positions in the US that don't require entrepreneurial risk taking to earn a high salary.

As a result, the highly educated and risk adverse MO community is heavily concentrated in those tracks, which doesn't translate well to Israel.

If the new US Health Care system evolves the way it has in Europe (a BIG if at this point, of course), and consoldates into either Government Run health care or a tightly knit Government Regulated Oligopoly, expect to see Doctor salaries drop as the easiest was to contain costs as a Health Care Monopsony.

If tort and regulation reform ever came to the US (seems like a long shot, but so did major health care changes), you'd see the same happens to lawyers. If you ever got REAL tax reform, you'd wallop accountant salaries (even non-tax related accountants, if teams of CPAs were on the open market, salaries would get driven down).

The MO College Educated easy success path through education is a window from the Baby Boom era through now, and may be coming to a close. What comes next in the US economy may be highly disruptive to Modern Orthodoxy that is VERY dependent on professionals with stable high incomes to sustain itself, it is possible that migration to Israel will be less disruptive than the retraining necessary here.

If you have high educational costs, little wealth outside of housing (that may be years from full recovering), and little in the way of retirement savings, moving to Israel and working toward a pension may make the most sense, especially if social security will pay a reduced amount but still something.

Anonymous said...

For everyone who thinks that vouchers are the answer, remember that some of the alleged savings will be offset by increases to your taxes to pay for christina's and jamal's private parochial schools that would now also get voiuchers -- they would not just be for rivky and moshe.

Abba's Rantings said...

ANON:

"increases to your taxes to pay for christina's and jamal's private parochial schools"

is the objection one of principle that we will be funding christian and muslim education, or that our taxes will go up?

if the latter, then

a) the voucher cost is spread over a large tax base, so presumably any tax hike would be offset by the tuition savings (assuming schools really pass on the savings)

b) if vouchers spark an exodus of existing public school christians and muslims to parochial schools, this will only lower your taxes, as the vouchers are *much* cheaper than direct public school funding. (for that matter, charter schools are also somewhat cheaper to fund, but not much)

Abba's Rantings said...

AL:

we live in america, so what's the point of comparing with europe. and i never said that israel is a third world country. but i think it's fair to say that the average reader of this blog would see his salary decrease significantly (as much as 70%), taxes rates would go up, and outlay for consumer goods would go up (in some cases double, triple or even quadruple)

yes, if you're in high tech or you have a job that you can commute to america for (virtual or real), then great. but for the average person, i'm not so sure it makes financial sense. and note other considerations. e.g., if you have one of those jobs that would incur a large pay cut in israel and you have signifigant student debt, you will have to default in order to make aliyah.

finally, remember that the numbers of olim from america is minuscule when compared to the numbers of yordim to america (including many unsuccessful olim). my (admittedly anecdotal) impression is that in large part this yeridah is driven by economics.

Kulanu Achim said...

Abba's Rantings:
Note that I specified aliyah to be a prudent (and infinitely rewarding!) decision that young adults and young couples should consider. Eizehu Chacham? Ha'roeh et hanolad. Who is wise? He who considers the outcome. If we seek to encourage the next generation to be family-focused, to raise peaceful and not hard-pressed Jewish families within a Jewish educational framework, we should encourage the next generation to seriously consider aliyah for quality of life.
A young couple does not need a minivan off the bat, they can wait out the highly inflated real-estate market and wait for the inevitable burst and prices to go down, and they can train for a variety of professions that will allow them to earn a decent living and a nice quality of life. Yes, you are correct that real estate and car prices are currently through the roof (those my age, early 30s who made aliyah 6-12 years ago, used their zechuyot for cars and bought on paper, are enjoying a very high quality of life -- hopefully those more recent arrivals will catch a break and see the RE market turn in their favor soon).
Yes, taxes are high, but my health care is significantly cheaper than yours and my kids' education is as well (k'muvan!).

Kids' shoes, etc -- everything is available here, not just for a premium. Just yesterday I bought my ten year old two pairs of high-quality shoes for $70 (250 shekel). Definitely pricier, but they weren't Payless quality -- more like Stride Rite quality.

I'll stress two things:
1) Quality of life has skyrocketed across the spectrum of Israeli society in the last five years. If you haven't visited since then, you're in for many pleasant surprises.
2) For those who are interested in raising large families, tuition and health care expenses are of paramount concern. Our kishkes aren't as much in a twist over these issues as yours are.

Miami Al said...

Abba's Ranting,

I deal with many Israeli companies (high tech). The quality of life seems comparable... and like mine, WAY better than the MO New Yorkers on here whining all the time.

Kulanu Achim,

Thanks for the post. Israel's economic success shows up in numbers, but quality of life is really amplified here.

Despite high incomes, I'm not JUST seeing any trappings of such a great quality of life from the Teaneck crowd.

Kulanu Achim said...

By the way, that's $70 combined for the two pairs of shoes.

If you trained to be a doctor, you'd be taking a major cut. If you trained for high-tech or plumbing or engineering or graphic design or architecture or any one of a number of other professions, and you were committed to having a large family and giving them a Jewish education, I really think you'd have fewer financial headaches (regarding these core issues).

The key for all of you parents of older kids who see too many obstacles to your own aliyah:
Make sure your kids choose training in professions that translate well over here (desert science or nanotechology, anyone?). Let's get with the times and no longer push exclusively for medicine and law.

Kulanu Achim said...

Miami Al,
Always been a big fan of your straightforward common sense. I suppose QOL is subjective; I'll take my view of Judean desert and Mt. of Olives any day over the Miami flatlands.
I guess I just measure my QOL in not-exclusively material terms.
When we go to my first grader's siddur party next week at the Kotel, I won't be missing the prime rib bbq that I would have enjoyed poolside at those TuM conventions (nor will I be missing the $10,000 tuition I'd have to pay for her siddur party in some auditorium in Yeshiva Day School, OOT America.)

Avi said...

Kulanu Achim - Excellent post. It wouldn't work financially for my family at this point (unless I wanted to commute from Israel, which would be a markedly LOWER quality of life for our entire family), but aliyah is definitely something we should include in the discussion.

Kulanu Achim said...

Hey Avi,
I'm a fan of yours, too, if you're the JFS Avi who is one of the three sane voices in that ridiculous 200kchump blog (Miami Al, you're another one).
Notice aliyah never comes up there. Such a shame, because so many of the posters seem to be leading such miserable lives, in part due to tuition angst fueling community resentment towards scholarship families.

We here in my school have about 5-10% of kids on "scholarship" (2000 shekel a year per child), mostly comprised of the compromised Ethiopian oleh population that is just starting to get on its feet economically but will need another generation to be in full gear, as well as some seriously down-and-out families that have fallen on rough times and need help in the short-term. All other families pay full tuition.

abbas rantings said...

KULANU ACHIM:

my understanding is that a lot of the zechuyot have been eliminated or otherwise whittled down in recent years (particulary the once lucrative tax-free car?)

on the topic of cars, the young famliy may not need a minivan, but they're still going to pay more for a stripped kia sedan in israel than for a loaded odyssey in america. and how much is a gallon of gas?

my impression is that a lot of olim make a lot of financial sacrifices to live in israel by giving up certain luxuries. well why can't they just give up those luxuries here in america to begin with? for example, housing. in the center of the country, particularly where anglos live, it seems it is more expensive per square foot than in many american jewish communities, often considerably so. the vast majority olim downsize in terms of home, significantly. so why not just downsize the home in america?

we can argue back and forth about this and i'm glad it's worked out for you, but i just don't think that the majority of american jews would do better off economically in israel.

as far as the future you refer to, yes RZ-oriented day schools and even YU could probably do a lot more (don't ask me what) to foster aliyah. but frankly, once a kid comes from home from the gap year(s), no matter how much he/she talks about aliyah, it's dead. the key is to keep them from getting back on that plane. period.

"When we go to my first grader's siddur party next week at the Kotel"

yes! we were at the kotel a few years ago and we saw a siddur party. it was so cool. that's the reason to make aliyah.

Anonymous said...

"my impression is that a lot of olim make a lot of financial sacrifices to live in israel by giving up certain luxuries. well why can't they just give up those luxuries here in america to begin with? for example, housing. in the center of the country, particularly where anglos live, it seems it is more expensive per square foot than in many american jewish communities, often considerably so. the vast majority olim downsize in terms of home, significantly. so why not just downsize the home in america?"

The reason is that here, we want to keep up with the Greenbergs who have the large homes in the greater NY/NJ area and we were brought up in those homes. In EY, we are more comfortable with the smaller homes, foregoing 2 minivans, etc. because most of our peers don't have those things either. Its all relative.

Abba's Rantings said...

ANON:

"In EY, we are more comfortable with the smaller homes, foregoing 2 minivans, etc. because most of our peers don't have those things either."

then the solution isn't for us to make aliyah but rather for us to grow up


AL:

"The quality of life seems comparable"

which must be the reason that there are more israelis with you in miami than in most israeli cities and towns.

the reason to make aliyah is because israel is our historical patrimony and destiny. it's the heart of our organic community. yishuv haaretz is a mitzvat aseh bizman hazeh. the modern state is atchalta de-ge'ulah. whatever. but QOL? i might as well just move to miami with all the other yordim.

Abba's Rantings said...

KULANU ACHIM:

as far as planning for the future?

it seems that the goal of many gap year programs is to get the kids to stay for shanah bet. maybe instead of spending all that energy to achieve this goal instead they should direct that energy to getting the kids to go to bar ilan, the army or anything else that makes them put down roots in the country. because once they get back on that plane, it's over.

i went to a gap year yeshivah that was probably as aliyah-oriented as you can get. we had much more RZ indoctrination (i don't mean that in a negative sense) than my friends in any other school and by far we had more opporutnities to "experience" israel than they did. but not one of us is living there today. perhaps the school could have made more efforts tachlis-wise. i don't recall any real talk (and certainly no pressure) to stay on. then again, many parents don't want their kids going to schools that have reputations for impressing upon the kids the need for shanah bet, all the more so if a school tries to get kids to settle there permanently.

Kulanu Achim said...

Abba's rantings:
You're right, that's one of the reasons to make aliyah. And the TuM admins should all take a minute from their poolside foodfest and consider how a mesibat siddur in the shadow of the kotel is what we'd all want for our children -- if you want to steer the conversation to HOW to educate our kids. But I'll stick to the tuition issue which is sending so many of you for annual stress tests way before your time.

Olim from America do give up certain luxuries (nice cars, huge homes), but we don't make financial sacrifices. Overwhelmingly, we downsize in terms of home size and cars, but nobody is stressing the biggies: education and health care. All things being equal: Let's say my peer and I were both at the start of building our families, and we both aspired to raising large families and providing our kids with the best education possible and the best that life has to offer. Now since I wanted (with G-d's help) a large family, not a large house, and I knew that I wanted to provide my kids with the best Jewish and secular education possible without breaking the bank and my arteries, I knew it would have to be here. So DH and I trained for jobs that would be marketable/lucrative here, and we started right off the bat as Israelis. Most who are in my company have their share of financial stresses (who doesn't?), but thankfully giving our kids a quality Jewish and well-rounded education isn't one of them.
My peer, who aspired to the same, is earning more than me and is raising his Orthodox Jewish family in America, well, he's beset by this whopping $50,000 annual tuition situation (he's OOT, and he has five kids, like me, hence the 50 grand). Plus he's hoping to send them to a decent university, so that's another anxiety stressing up his life. You tell him to downsize his rancher and sedan? Good luck with that.
Here we're all downsized. We all start off that way, and make our peace with less house and crappy car because everybody does it. And yet we're all pretty content materially, because you don't seem to miss what you can't really have...

Alls I'm saying is this:
If you're able to think long-term and consider what will be the outcome of current investment, then do right by your teenagers and young adults and steer them here. Strongly. Not for a year, but for good. All your voucher talk and panicked crying over bloated tuition and dried-up funding sources will do nothing to help your children's children -- and will negatively affect your health.
And if you're lucky to be young enough to be entering this conversation with very young children, well -- GET OVER HERE NOW.

Kulanu Achim said...

Abba's Rantings said:


That's about as likely to happen as all yeshiva day schools to close up shop and send all students along to charter schools.

I've been following your crisis for three years now, ever since it's hit the blogosphere big-time. Many ideas have been bandied about, some bandaids and some big-time deal changers, but nothing, NOTHING has changed. You are not going to grow up. You are not, en masse, going to downsize so as to afford private school tuitions. You may, l'tza'ari harav, see tuition as 21st century birth control and the only reason you're not going to expand your family is because you want to be fiscally responsible and able to afford those huge tuitions, weddings, university bills.

Yes, the gap-year programs should be settling their students into universities here. They need you to lay the seeds of encouragement first and have you on board with the implicit understanding that this is what's best for the long-term future of your family.

Kulanu Achim said...

That SHOULD have read:

Abba's rantings said:
"then the solution isn't for us to make aliyah but rather to grow up"

and then my above post responded to that

Miami Al said...

KA and AR,

Sure, lots of Israelis live in Miami, so what? We're a warm climate with lots of international business and plenty of economic opportunity for people that work hard. Israelis here blend in in a area that is majority non-white, and therefore much more International.

I looked at housing in Israel, for less than my Ranch House, I found Ranch Houses in Israel, all in commuting distance (by American standards, < 30 minutes) from Haifa and Tel Aviv. I'm just NOT seeing this quality of life hit.

I deal with plenty of Israelis professionally... one guy I spoke to in Vegas (sorry Avi, we should have met up) lives in Tel Aviv, commutes to the US for Tradeshows 2x a quarter, and doesn't speak a word of Hebrew. He's got a great life, loves being there, does all his business in English.

Personally, I like my life, so I'm not planning on moving.

However, if you are miserable with day school tuition, have no ability to pay for college (and earn WAY too much for scholarship), you should seriously consider it. In Israel, your kids will get schooling for affordable prices and you'll get a pension when you are too old to work.

OTOH, here, at 60, I guess you'll own a Ranch house in Teaneck free and clear...

Avi said...

Al, Teaneck has mostly Tudors, not Ranches. But otherwise, you've got it about right. :)

Miami Al said...

Avi,

Thanks, my bad. I couldn't find Teaneck on a map... never been, never hugely interested in random suburbs of NYC. :)

Miami Al said...

Abba's Ranting,

My parents moved from NYC -> Miami to raise their family, found a better quality of life here. I love it here, but I have contemplated Texas as a better quality of life for us and our children.

After the recent economic crisis and the recession here, with much milder changes in Israel, I would expect Israel to keep climbing on that.

Per Capita income is ranked #48 in the world at $28,600, he United States is #11 at $46,000, the EU as a entirety is $31,900). Israel's GDP grew 5.4% in 2007, 4.4% in 2008, and 0.2% in 2009, I presume 2010 numbers will be out soon. The United States on the other hand grew at 1.9% in 2007, 0% in 2008, and -2.6% in 2009.

Given another 5-10 years, if Israel can maintain this, a 3% to 4% edge over the US in economic growth, Israel will be above the EU and seriously catching up with the United States.

Wouldn't it be great if moving to Israel wasn't seen as an economic sacrifice?

US Per Capita income is nearly double Israel's, for a family wanting a small family, the United State's free schooling and stronger economy makes leaving Israel for the United States make sense.

For a Frum family wanting 4-5 children in expensive private schools in the United States, the equation may be different.

Kulanu Achim said...

You said it, Miami Al. And you always say it so clearly and with so much common sense. How about it, Sephardi Lady -- why don't you devote a guest post to the very sensible -- but much marginalized and even maligned -- option for young families who aspire to large families + Jewish education to take responsibility and open up a tik with NBN?

Your posts on home schooling have been insightful but, as you have to realize, will be heeded by maybe 1-5% of anxious parents.
Your posts on vouchers, overhaul, downsizing raise ire and indignation, but will do absolutely nothing to pragmatically help these younger families who will have kids in HS in a few years.
How about switching gears? Funny that sensible Miami Al and his eminently reasonable pal Avi both chimed in, but a resounding silence from all of your other loyal readers (not to mention yourself).
Ad matai atem potchim al sh'tei hase'ifim -- how much longer are you all going to straddle the fence, wring hands and set up the next generation for more of the same?

A Shabbat Shalom to you all from the Judean desert,
Kulanu Achim

Dave said...

Whether or not Israel will be able to maintain that leap into the First World is still to be determined -- the long term demographics as far as education and work are troubling.

I would not assume that Israel would surpass America. Nor would I assume that America will remain the dominant economic power. But America has a lot more margin for error.

Kulanu Achim said...

Dave says:

"the long term demographics as far as education and work are troubling."

Why, Dave?
If you throw Ahmadinejad and nuclear war into this conversation, I'm out. We're sticking to pragmatic considerations for young adults/young families who want large families+quality Jewish education.

Orthonomics said...

Kulanu Achim,
Sorry for my silence. I'm not feeling great now. I'd welcome a guest post from an American parent that made a succesful aliyah. We have many friends that moved at the height of the American real estate market, and so many of them have returned or the husbands fly to America to work. I'm not sold, but I'm willing to host a forum.

Dave said...

Kulanu:

Look at Dan Ben-David's work (http://www.tau.ac.il/~danib/articles/WorstThreatEng.htm) on the next generation trends.

Israel combined lowering of taxes and other improvements in the business climate and the huge human capital of the Russian exodus right into the high-tech market of the 1990s.

But high-tech economies need an educated labor force to sustain them (America has a similar issue in that we need to educate our next generation, but we have a much larger labor force to work from).

Anonymous said...

Guest Post:
I made aliya 3 years ago.
I was paying 16K for two kids in preschool. Now I pay $5500 for 4 kids, school and preschool.
Both my husband and I make 25% of what we made in the US. As in, I made $100 an hour there and here I make $25; my husband made $80 and here he makes $18. There we bought a 10yr old minivan in great condition for 3K, here we had to spend way more to get something decent (multiply by 10). Clothes, food, toys, and gas cost way more here. (On sale, pretzels cost $1.70 for 2/3 of a pound, and that is a huge bargain!) Things like plumbers, daycamp, tzitzit, and dressmakers are a drop cheaper. Our out-of-pocket health care costs are lower. But rent and real estate is high in the "in" places.
Bottom line:
Most Americans move here and make huge financial sacrifices, and really struggle to make it. We didn't move here for the money, and when you earn so much less, $5500 in tuition is a fortune!
Come to Eretz Yisroel to save your souls, not to escape tuition/money problems. And when you come here as tourists, recognize that olim do not have it easy - saying, Oh, wow, you guys don't pay tuition like WE do is beyond stupid.

Kulanu Achim said...

You mean to tell me, anonymous, that if you stayed in the States with four kids you'd not be struggling the way you are here?
Or maybe you'd have had fewer kids? Or cap at 4 even though you wanted more?
Or maybe you'd be on scholarship?

My point is not relevant to specific aliyah stories. It's entirely about encouraging young people who aspire to raise large families and educate them Jewishly to train for professions that are lucrative and marketable here, to avoid laying down any roots overseas and to get used to the standards of living in Israel.

Additionally, many people have mastered the art of keeping the cost of consumer goods down to the point where they wouldn't feel the crunch the way you're describing.

If you plan on having a large family, which many Orthodox Jews do here, then you have yet to convince me that you made "huge financial sacrifices" in your aliyah.

It's not just about the soul. Pragmatics plays a role. And the problem with minimizing or dismissing that fact is that you're helping to limit aliyah to those who are coming only for idealistic reasons, DESPITE the mesirat nefesh of financial loss. People who want large families, who don't care too much about job prestige and material luxuries and who value a solid Jewish education have dwindling options. It would be "beyond stupid" to convince them that aliyah is not a pragmatic option with rhetoric like "come to E"Y to save your souls."

Miami Al said...

Kulanu Achim,

Glad it is working out for you. Like I said, I'm in the Internet, but not exactly high tech (as is Avi, from what I've seen on his blog). In our profession, it doesn't matter WHERE you are, except that the International Wire fee may come out of your pay when Americans pay you...

It all depends on what you do.

However, if you want to live in a frummy part of Jerusalem and look the part, the world of International business is not for you. The guys I meet are all successful, live in various Modern/Secular mixed towns, and generally float back and forth.

We'll see. If Israel pursues pro-growth policies instead of the Labor government's historic strategy of anti-growth with massive subsidies for Olim, things will probably work out.

BTW: if you moved 3 years ago, newsflash for you, we you wouldn't be making what you made 3 years ago, you'd be making 40%-60% of it, this recession has been BRUTAL.

60 years ago, moving to Israel was a MASSIVE sacrifice.
30 years ago, it was a major sacrifice.
No, it might be a sacrifice (unclear for large Frum families)
10 years from now, maybe Jews will move to Israel because Tel Aviv is paved with gold, and New York is a disaster of high taxes to pay city pensions to retirees that live in Texas.

tesyaa said...

Al, don't forget that NYC was a horrible place to live & work in the 1970s, was in horrible fiscal shape, yet you did not see people making aliyah in droves then. Unlikely you will see in in 10 years either.

Miami Al said...

Tesyaa,

But 1970s Israel was a poor, third world country, reeling from two major wars in a few years.

Sure, 1970s NYC was a disaster, but you could take I95 South and move to Miami.

However, if 2020 NYC is a disaster, and 2020 Israel is a thriving, growing economy, I don't know that more 23 year old YU/Stern graduates don't pick up and try their luck in Israel.

If Israel keeps losing uneducated people to Miami, and picking up University Educated Jews from NYC, that's not a terrible trade-off either.

1970s NYC vs. Israel was still probably positive for NYC. I'm not sure that 2020 NYC will line up as favorably. Texas will still look good, Florida is up in the air... cheap flights have reduced Florida's vacation appeal, you can get to Mexico for the same price... so we'll see, Texas has natural resources, we have retired New Yorkers with negative attitudes.

Dave said...

BTW: if you moved 3 years ago, newsflash for you, we you wouldn't be making what you made 3 years ago, you'd be making 40%-60% of it, this recession has been BRUTAL.

Careful with your hyperbole, there.

This recession has been absolutely brutal on the long term unemployed, and hard to brutal on many small businesses, but there are plenty of people who have not only not lost ground in the recession, but done better.

Kulanu Achim said...

Shavua Tov,
Enough with the "glad it is working out for you," people. I'm glad it's working out for you, too, but that's not what we're discussing here, is it? There are too many people for whom it's just not working out. MA, your life is great bkz you live in Miami and don't pay huge tuition bills. Should you stop raising ideas and discussion because you have an easier time than your tri-state peers? While you know that they won't consider a charter school or public school option like you do, you haven't stopped participating in the discussion.

You think you'll be able to convince someone to move to Miami and/or switch to charter/public school because you have a high quality of life? Well I think I have a stronger case in convincing young adults/marrieds to make aliyah and send to our wonderful and low-cost schools because I believe that this is a solution that affords a very high quality of life and solves the crisis of the decline and slow death of the yeshiva system without compromising on the high standards of limudei kodesh that most people would at least like to hope for for their kids' educations.

Another Israeli Anon said...

Anonymous had it right when she said:

"Come to Eretz Yisroel to save your souls, not to escape tuition/money problems. And when you come here as tourists, recognize that olim do not have it easy - saying, Oh, wow, you guys don't pay tuition like WE do is beyond stupid."

Making aliyah to save money on tuition is probably the WORST reason to make the move. Between paying more for cars and housing (and just about everything else) plus much lower salaries and much higher income taxes, you're not saving that much in the end.

Move here for the love of the country, for WANTING to live in Israel, not to save money on tuition.

Kulanu Achim said...

Dear Another Israeli Anon,

You're right, one should make aliyah for reasons other than low tuitions. But let's say that you aspired to raising a large family and wanted to educate them Jewishly and are just starting out, and you didn't want to have to limit your family size for tuition-related reasons (as I've been hearing about at an alarming rate).
Who's arguing to make aliyah only because it'll save you money on tuition? All I'm arguing is that is should factor strongly into a young couple's vision of their family's future (if, that is, they aspire to raising a large family and providing their kids with a quality Jewish education).
And as Miami Al puts it so cogently, the family that wants to have two kids in a public school or yeshiva day school and then university might be taking a huge financial hit moving to Israel. The family that wants to have 6 kids, educate them in a yeshiva day school and then put them through college might want to have another think before they strike down their roots and begin professional training in America.

Miami Al said...

Kulanu Achim,

Doctor, wife that works as an office manager for his office, highly specialized, family income 350k, 3 kids in Teaneck, probably bitching about 45k in schooling, but way better off there than just about anywhere else.

Lawyer, wife at home, climbing ranks at big firm, making 200k with hopes of making partner but fears of being cut and being on their own... probably should have made better decisions in their 20s, but moving doesn't help.

Internet Marketing Guy, works from home, does business via email, conference calls, and trade shows, outsources everything else. Income fluctuates but priced in dollars.

Secular w/ Two kids, exchange rate risk might make Israel a bad call, higher costs for American style luxuries plus exchange rate makes it a bad call.

Religious with 6 kids? Note sure, but willing to bet that any income hit from not being able to schedule conference calls on Friday because of time zone issues is less substantial than saving on tuition.

A friend that does phone sales, not on the Internet, did the math, and at 3-4 kids, the 20% income hit (no Friday business calls, it's already Shabbat in Israel) plus insanity of working East Coast hours in Israel was more than compensated by the tuition issue.

Again, it's an individual issue, but I believe that if Israel can maintain it's growth differential with the US for 10 years, more people will find Aliyah a reasonable option. Right now, US Per Capita income differential is 2:1, if this pattern goes ten years, it's 3:2, and that combined with tuition growing at double inflation for that time period is a MAJOR economic change.

Just don't move to Miami, plenty of ex-New Yorkers annoying us as is. Tell your friends to spend generously in two weeks.

Shavua Tov

mother in israel said...

In 2025 25% of Israel's population will be over 65. We won't be escaping the pension issue, plus a significant percentage of children are getting limited secular education.

Cool RAM said...

Gervinho diincar Marseille

Agen Bola Luckygol.com melaporkan bahwa pemain Arsenal, Gervinho, menjadi salah satu target transfer Olympique Marseille pada musim panas ini. Setidaknya, itulah yang diakui asisten pelatih klub, Fanck Passi.
Menurut berita yang dikutip oleh Luckygol, orang kepercayaan pelatih Marseille, Elie Baup, itu mengungkapkan kubunya melihat pemain asal Pantai Gading itu sebagai pemain yang bakal cocok dengan gaya permainan mereka. Selain Gervinho, bintang Sporting Lisbon, Diego Capel, juga menjadi buruan klub.
"Ya, itu (Gervinho) adalah profil yang membuat kami tertarik. Kami ingin pemain yang bisa menyusuri sisi lapangan, dengan dribling, umpan, dan bisa mencetak gol. Gervinho memiliki profil itu," ucap Passi.
Namun, Gervinho sendiri dikait-kaitkan dengan kemungkinan kembali ke klub lamanya, Lille setelah kepergiannya dua tahun lalu ke Arsenal. Sementara, klub Turki, Fenerbahce juga disebut-sebut memonitor perkembangan situasinya.

Cool RAM said...

AC Milan membuat video perpisahan untuk Ambrossini
Agen Bola Luckygol.com melaporkan bahwa saat ini karir Massimo Ambrosini bersama AC Milan sudah berakhir. Dan menjelang kepergiannya musim depan, AC Milan membuat video spesial bagi perpisahan sang kapten.
Menurut berita yang dikutip oleh Luckygol, dalam melalui video yang diunggah ke akun Youtube resmi mereka, AC Milan menayangkan peristiwa-peristiwa penting kala Ambrosini merumput bersama I Rossoneri selama 18 tahun.
Secara khusus, video itu diiringi lagu favorit Ambro, yakni "Born To Run" dari Bruce Springsteen. Saking cinta dengan lagu tersebut, dalam video terlihat jelas Ambrosini mempunyai tato dengan kata-kata yang sama seperti judul lagu di tangannya. Video itu juga memperlihatkan torehan gol sang kapten yang khas yakni dengan sundulan.
Bersama I Rossoneri, Ambrosini sudah bermain 489 laga dengan koleksi 36 gol. Dia juga turut andil dalam 12 trofi milik AC Milan, yakni dua gelar juara Liga Champions, 4 gelar Serie A, satu Coppa Italia, dua Piala Super Coppa Italia, dua Piala Super Eropa serta satu Piala Dunia Antarklub.
Kepergian gelandang berusia 36 tahun tersebut memang meninggalkan tanda tanya. Wakil Presiden Adriano Galliani beralasan bahwa faktor umur menjadi indikator AC Milan melegonya. Sementara, kontrak Christian Abbiati dan Daniele Bonera, yang juga sudah berumur di atas 30 tahun, tetap diperpanjang.

Cool RAM said...

Benitez mengincar pemain dari PSV
Agen Bola Luckygol.com melaporkan bahwa nama Dries Mertens digadang-gadang sebagai incaran Rafael Benitez. Dan kabarnya, selangkah lagi Benitez akan segera memboyong pemain sayap PSV Eindhoven itu ke Napoli.
Menurut berita yang diperoleh Luckygol, nilai pemain timnas Belgia tersebut diprediksikan mencapai 10 juta euro. Namun, harga Mertens dapat melambung jika klausul bonus juga dihitung.
Meski demikian, hingga saat ini belum ada pernyataan resmi dari pihak Benitez serta Martens mengenai berita perekrutan tersebut. Pelatih asal Spanyol itu memang tengah gencar mencari pemain potensial, terlebih jika bintang I Partinopei, Edinson Cavani benar hengkang musim depan.

kon kaka said...

Guardiola ready for Bayern challenge
Agen Bola www.indo11.com reported, New Bayern Munich manager Pep Guardiola says he is ready to take on a new challenge as he begins life at the club.
The Spaniard was unveiled as the German treble winners’ new manager on Monday after agreeing to join the club in January.
Former Barcelona boss Guardiola won three La Liga titles and two UEFA crowns in his time at the Camp Nou, but the 42-year-old insists he does not lack motivation to try and add to his list of honours at the Allianz Arena, following a year out of the game.
“After my sabbatical, I’m ready,” he said. “My time in Barcelona was wonderful, but I needed to move on and Bayern gave me the chance and I had to take it.
“It’s a personal as well as a professional challenge to come here. It’s an honour to be here.”
However, Guardiola admitted that he is under pressure after previous boss Jupp Heynckes guided Bayern to domestic success in the Bundesliga and DFB Pokal, and victory in the UEFA Champions League final.as reported by Indo Eleven.
“I have to be able to live with that (the treble win) and with giant clubs like this there is always big pressure. I am under pressure,” he added.
Source : www.indo11.com

kon kaka said...

Nangis hints at Spurs and Everton links
Agen Bola www.indo11.com reported, Caen striker Lenny Nangis has dropped hints that he would like to sign for Everton or Tottenham as speculation around the player continues.
The France Under-19 international has generated interest following a successful season with Ligue 2 side Caen which saw him score one goal in eight appearances.
“I am very happy with my form so far and I am looking forward to the Under-19 tournament in Lithuania,” he said.
“There are English clubs interested and also top French clubs, but I am very happy at Caen at the moment.
“Everton and Tottenham are top teams who make your head turn, but I need to focus on the upcoming championship.”as reported by Indo Eleven.
The young forward is away with the France Under-19 side at the UEFA European Championship, having featured in all their six of the qualifying games and started in the side’s 2-2 draw with Portugal.
Source : www.indo11.com


kon kaka said...

Rodgers: Liverpool in control of Suarez saga
Agen Bola www.indo11.com reported, Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers has revealed that he is relaxed over the future of controversial striker Luis Suarez.
Suarez had previously made clear his desire to join Real Madrid after declaring his affection for the Spanish giants, while German treble winners Bayern Munich have also been linked with a move for the Uruguayan.
However, Rodgers insists that he has made the club’s stance on the matter clear to Suarez.
“I haven’t spoken to him,” Rodgers told The Liverpool Echo. “I’ve exchanged messages. For me it’s quite simple. The club is in control of the situation.
“We’re in a situation that we’ve got a player that we don’t want to lose and Suarez is important to the team we’re building.”as reported by Indo Eleven.
Rodgers stressed that the 26-year-old holds Liverpool in extremely high regard but that his feelings for the club rarely take precedence in the media.
“The problem is with Luis, he says he loves Liverpool, the people and the city, but that doesn’t get reported much,” he added.
Source : www.indo11.com

Cool RAM said...

Denisov memilih ke Anzhi Makhachkala
Agen Bola Luckygol.com melaporkan bahwa kapten sekaligus gelandang andalan timnas Rusia, Igor Denisov, akhirnya memilih hijrah ke Anzhi Makhachkala yang notabene adalah rival dari timnya, Zenit St Petersburg. Hal ini sedikit mengejutkan melihat tim pilihan Denisov.
"Kami sangat antusias dengan pembelian ini. Kami yakin Anzhi baru saja membeli pemain dengan kualitas istimewa pada sosok Denisov," tulis situs resmi klub.
Menurut berita yang diperoleh Luckygol, setelah 11 tahun berkiprah bersama Zenit, Denisov memilih hengkang. Bukan rahasia lagi bahwa sang pemain kecewa dengan gaji besar untuk Hulk serta sempat mengalami masalah pada sesi latihan. Banyaknya polemik itu membuat Denisov habis kesabaran dan memilih untuk hengkang ke Anzhi.
"Anzhi adalah klub dinamis yang paling tepat untuk disinggahi saat ini," ucap Denisov.

Cool RAM said...

Spanyol terkuat dan Brasil pun semakin berkembang
Agen Bola Luckygol.com melaporkan bahwa direktur teknik timnas Brasil, Carlos Alberto Parreira optimistis dengan sepak terjang Neymar dan kawan-kawan di Piala Konfederasi 2013. Parreira tidak khawatir meski Spanyol juga tampil di Piala Konfederasi.
Menurut berita yang diperoleh Luckygol, prestasi Spanyol meroket dalam beberapa tahun terakhir. Mereka sukses menyabet trofi Piala Eropa 2008 dan 2012, serta menjadi menjuarai Piala Dunia 2010 silam. Namun, Tim Samba bertindak sebagai tuan rumah Piala Konfederasi kali ini dan ingin keluar sebagai juara.
"Kami tidak takut dengan tim Spanyol. Kami menghormati mereka," tegas Parreira yang menjadi salah satu tangan kanan pelatih Luis Felipe Scolari.
Parreira memang mengagumi perkembangan pesat yang terjadi di pesepakbolaan Spanyol. Tim Spanyol U-21 sendiri baru saja mengangkat trofi Piala Eropa U-21 setelah mengalahkan Italia 4-2 di partai final.
"Mereka tim terbaik di dunia. Tidak hanya di level senior, di tim junior U-21 dan U-19 juga menjadi juara Eropa. Mereka telah matang, sedangkan Brasil masih berkembang," paparnya.
Mantan pelatih Tim Samba itu tak sabar ingin berjumpa Spanyol di partai puncak Piala Konfederasi kali ini.
"Tetapi kami harus fokus melawan Italia terlebih dahulu dan babak semifinal," bilang Parreira.

Cool RAM said...

Prandelli mengubah formasi dalam menghadapi Brasil
Agen Bola Luckygol.com melaporkan bahwa kendati nyaris ditahan Jepang membuat pelatih Italia, Cesare Prandelli meracik strategi baru. Apalagi, Gli Azzurri akan berhadapan dengan tuan rumah Brasil dalam laga terakhir di fase grup Piala Konfederasi 2013, Sabtu (22/6).
"Hal yang penting adalah menemukan keseimbangan yang tidak ada pada kami saat melawan Jepang," tegas Prandelli.
Dua gelandang utama Italia dipastikan absen saat melawan Brasil. Daniele De Rossi terkena akumulasi kartu, sedangkan Andrea Pirlo menderita cedera betis. Meski begitu, Prandelli tetap berharap anak asuhnya bisa meraih prestasi di Piala Konfederasi.
"Saat ini, kami butuh para pemain yang bugar. Perbedaan yang terjadi di kompetisi ini bukan dari segi kemampuan teknik, melainkan kondisi fisik. Piala Konfederasi adalah kompetisi yang menyenangkan dan penting, kami memiliki waktu dan kesempatan untuk melakukan persiapan (untuk Piala Dunia). Para peserta di kompetisi ini juga berlaga di Pra-Piala Dunia," jelasnya.
Menurut berita yang diperoleh Luckygol, Prandelli tampaknya akan mengandalkan formasi 4-3-3 untuk mengimbangi intensitas serangan Brasil. Skema ini juga bisa dikembangkan menjadi 4-2-3-1, dimana Mario Balotelli menjadi tumpuan di lini depan Gli Azzurri.

Phan ha said...

Atletico keen on Otamendi
Agen Bola indo11.com reported, that Atletico Madrid are considering a summer bid for FC Porto defender Nicolas Otamendi.
Los Colchoneros could easily stay without star defender Diego Godin and they are looking to sign a high-profile centre-back in the summer.
According to Record, Diego Simeone has made FC Porto stopper Nicolas Otamendi his number one target.
The problem is that the player’s release clause was recently increased from €15m to €30m, which means los Colchoneros will have to delve deep into their pockets if they want to sign the Argentine. as reported byIndo Eleven.
For the time being, FC Porto are holding out for full €30m, but Atletico officials are hoping they can lower the asking price and lure the experienced defender to Vicente Calderon.
Nicolas Otamendi, 25, has been a real rock at the back for the Dragons, clocking up 64 Primeira Liga appearances and scoring 6 goals.
Source : www.indo11.com

rith thear said...

Coentrao wants Benfica return
Agen Bola indo11.com reported, Real Madrid full-back Fabio Coentrao has expressed his desire to return to Benfica.
The Portuguese defender recently made it clear that he was looking to leave Santiago Bernabeu due to the lack of respect shown by the club officials.
French giants Monaco have launched an assault on the Portugal international shortly after these statements, but the player himself would reportedly prefer a return to Benfica.
He had hinted last month that he would not be able to say no to his former club, but it remains to be seen whether the Eagles have enough funds to facilitate his return.
Real Madrid value the player at €20 million, which is not exactly within Benfica’s price range, but the Eagles could raise the funds by selling some of their star players. as reported byIndo Eleven.
Oscar Cardozo is on the verge of completing a switch to Fenerbahce, whilst Ezequiel Garay and Nicolas Gaitan are also expected to leave in the summer.
Source : www.indo11.com

som phors said...

Isco reveals offers from Real and City
Agen Bola indo11.com reported, Malaga star Isco is hoping to decide his future soon after confirming that he has received offers from Real Madrid and Manchester City.
The 21-year-old attracted many admirers with his performances for the La Rosaleda outfit last season as he helped his side to the UEFA quarter-finals.
Isco has continued to impress for Spain at the U-21 European Championship but, although he is eager to resolve his future with interest from both Real and City, the attacking midfielder is solely focused on enjoying his football.

“Well, these are two subjects which are on the table,” he told as reported byIndo Eleven.

“I hope to decide quickly because I still have a contract with Malaga. I know that Manchester City and Real Madrid are two big clubs. I want the best for me and for Malaga. I do not mind (which club), what I want is to play football wherever it is, and to enjoy myself.”

The Premier League outfit may seem to have an advantage in the race for Isco’s signature after the player’s former Malaga boss Manuel Pellegrini was appointed manager at the Etihad Stadium earlier in the month.

Source : www.indo11.com

som phors said...

Isco reveals offers from Real and City
Agen Bola indo11.com reported, Malaga star Isco is hoping to decide his future soon after confirming that he has received offers from Real Madrid and Manchester City.
The 21-year-old attracted many admirers with his performances for the La Rosaleda outfit last season as he helped his side to the UEFA quarter-finals.
Isco has continued to impress for Spain at the U-21 European Championship but, although he is eager to resolve his future with interest from both Real and City, the attacking midfielder is solely focused on enjoying his football.

“Well, these are two subjects which are on the table,” he told as reported byIndo Eleven.

“I hope to decide quickly because I still have a contract with Malaga. I know that Manchester City and Real Madrid are two big clubs. I want the best for me and for Malaga. I do not mind (which club), what I want is to play football wherever it is, and to enjoy myself.”

The Premier League outfit may seem to have an advantage in the race for Isco’s signature after the player’s former Malaga boss Manuel Pellegrini was appointed manager at the Etihad Stadium earlier in the month.

Source : www.indo11.com

Andreas Ratih said...

Pellegrini mengaku puas dengan hasil raihan City

Berita terbaru dan terkini Bola Soccer dari Agen Bola Indo11 - Manchester City sukses membawa pulang tiga angka saat melawat ke kandang Viktoria Plzen di laga pertama Grup C Liga Champions. Manuel Pellgrini mengaku puas dengan performa City di babak kedua.

Agen Bola Indo11 Terpercaya - Gol-gol kemenangan 3-0 City atas wakil Republik Ceko itu dilesakan oleh Edin Dzeko, Yaya Toure, dan Sergio Aguero diraih di babak kedua. Meski tidak menyebut City bermain buruk di babak pertama, Pellegrini mengaku beruntung tim besutannya bisa mencetak gol di paruh kedua pertandingan.

"Saya pikir kami bermain bagus di babak pertama, tapi kami bermain sangat bagus di babak kedua. Kami menyerang dengan kecepatan dan untungnya kami mencetak tiga gol," kata Pellegrini.
Sumber http://www.indo11.com

Eko Dinda said...

Flamini Punya Urusan yang 'Belum Selesai' di Arsenal

Berita terbaru dan terkini bola Soccer dari Agen Bola Indo11London - Di periode pertama kariernya di Arsenal, Mathieu Flamini cuma memenangi satu trofi. Karena itu, di kesempatan keduanya bersama Arsenal, Flamini bertekad mengantarThe Gunners memenangi lebih banyak gelar.

Flamini berseragam Arsenal di periode tahun 2004-2008. Selama empat tahun itu, dia turut membantu Arsenal memenangi gelar Piala FA di tahun 2005. Gelar itu sekaligus menjadi gelar terakhir yang dimenangi Arsenal.

Berita yang dirangkum oleh Agen Bola Indo11 terpercaya,Setelah meninggalkan Arsenal, Flamini kemudian hijrah ke AC Milan. Namun di bursa transfer musim panas ini, gelandang 29 tahun itu kembali ke Emirates Stadium setelah kontraknya tak diperpanjang Milan.

Flamini merasa masih ada pekerjaan yang belum selesai ketika dia meninggalkan Arsenal di tahun 2008 lalu. Maka ketika kesempatan untuk kembali ke klub London Utara itu hadir lagi, Flamini bertekad untuk "menyelesaikannya".
Sumber : http://www.indo11.com/