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Friday, November 04, 2011

NASI: "He was Not Asked"

AZ back of the the coffee room asked about the Rabbinic endorsement (of the statement they endorse it, but they must work behind the scenes):

"Feel free to call Rav Shmuel Shlit”a:

Please note: He was NOT asked regarding this specific program and unless he reads the yated/hamodia etc most probably doesn’t even know about this specific program.

He is well aware who is guiding the project on a day to day basis “who is the “daas torah” behind it” and Rav Shmuel holds that person in great esteem and greatly values their judgment."

Pure Sheker. But at least the honest truth is coming through.

P.S. To those people who are going on the board saying that NASI is l'shem shamayim, I want you to understand that this is an attack on an idea, not a person and this attack is also in the name of heaven.

29 comments:

Bob Miller said...

When some idea or action that may affect you or your family is said to be recommended by a Gadol, verify that this is really so.

I doubt that there is enough time in a Gadol's day to keep track of and respond to all the false claims out there.

Anonymous said...

Does NASI even have a website?

JS said...

I have a question that hopefully won't brand me as a heretic, but here goes anyways:

Why should anyone care what a "gadol" has to say about NASI or any other charity or business?

The only value I can think of is if they actually know the people involved and their approval merely extends to "I know this guy and I think he's a mensch."

But, even that is kinda worthless.

I mean, did the gadol look at financial statements to see that money is being distributed properly? Did he check that they're paying taxes and following all requisite laws? That money is not being co-mingled? Does a gadol even have the proper educational background (let alone the time and skills) to do this kind of investigation?

For the life of me I can't understand this fascination and obsessions with what gedolim are behind the project and which gadol signed his name to it.

At most, all a signature means is "I think this a good idea" which really only means "I think helping singles get married is a good idea" not "I have analyzed the available population data, statistical studies, sociological factors, etc. involved in the shidduch crisis and think this is the best way to solve it."

The whole thing is just absurd.

You want to know if a chicken is kosher, you go to a gadol. You want to know if a charity is legitimate you go to accountants, lawyers, etc.

Bob Miller said...

JS, the various PR pieces give an impression that one or more Gedolim know and understand the projects in fine detail. If that was really so, it would be worthwhile information. Even then, we'd need to know more details from other people with pertinent areas of expertise.

sam said...

i know the daas torah behind this as well and he is someone who is most definitely a gadol. i also will not "out" him as my respect for him is quite large.
i would like, however to try to explain his philosophy in this area to help with any misconceptions.
He believes that we need to create true social change. if you want to call it engineering go right ahead. The "mainstream" gedolim and community arent up to the task. all that is left for us to do is make a commotion. do anything in your power to wake people up jar them etc. this gadol not only doesnt mind that there is controversy, he wants it. more publicity etc. maybe we can change things over time.
after all your kvetching, let me ask you something. if even a few shidduchim come from this, should this not be applauded even after all your "what ifs"? It seems from the pettiness of your complaints that you are not feeling for these girls and dont understand the importance of them getting married for their families and all of us.

tesyaa said...

sam, if a family or a single woman loses a large amount of money because of this scheme with no corresponding benefit, would you still say it's worth it? I don't think you understand the financial impact on a family of losing thousands of dollars - money that could be spent on yeshiva tuition, seminary costs, tzedaka, etc.

sam said...

tesyaa
are you comparing losing thirteen thousand dollars to not getting married at all? i must be misunderstanding you

tesyaa said...

sam, I'm comparing losing $13,000 and STILL not getting married ... losing the money because it's poorly managed, or worse.

Do you think it's OK for a woman to lose $13,000, as long as some OTHER woman happens to get married via this plan? You're very cavalier with other people's money.

Dave said...

Based on recent events, if I were looking to see if a charity were run in an honest and financially sound way, why would I ever consider asking a Rabbi?

sam said...

tessya
what is more likely (Honestly please)
no one loses money and some girls get married, or no one gets married and everyone loses money?
You might think neither. at least admit some will prob benefit and that the chance of losing the money forever is quite slim.
now re evaluate.

tesyaa said...

Most likely? Some people lose money and some people get married. If even one family gets fleeced, even unintentionally, is it worth it if 10 girls get married?

I say NO.

sam said...

ok if you think so. sounds nuts to me. those hundred neshamos that will never be born just arent worth someone losing thirteen grand.i have no money and would go into debt thirteen grand if i knew for sure even one person would be born hey but thats just me. (and all other sane people.)

psychobabbler said...

Sam- whose hands are shidduchim in anyways? If you believe that one must pay this money to be able to get married (and "hundred neshamos wont be born" otherwise) then I don't think we can trust your opinion on Rabbonim. You obviously have no bitachon and emunah in HKB"H. No, I am not some right wing fanatic but I do believe that shidduchim are in HKB"H's hands. Whoever is supposed to be married will be married. Whoever is supposed to have children will.
Yes, if run right this might be the "shliach" that is necessary but isn't it said that 40 days before a boy is born that a voice calls out "ben ploni will be married to bas ploni".
Those children will be born. Maybe to different parents. If they are supposed to be born they will be.

sam said...

that right just tell those thirty year old girls to daven. doesnt matter that its a tefillas shav if there are no boys.
the concept of bashert while complicated is not the issue at all. do you send away aniyim because hashem is masbia lechol chai? If someone is dying do you let him die or figure out a way to get him some food?
Btw do any of you naysayers have a daughter/sister over thirty and single? didnt think so.
good shabbos.

psychobabbler said...

If there are no boys, then paying into this system won't work anyways.

Excuse me- but I do know plenty of *and have relatives who are* over 35 and single. So don't say things you have no idea about. This lady would not even think about joining such a group, however made of good intentions, because the way they set forth this proposition. "I am no good if I am single? My life is worthless now that I should pay 13,500 to get married?"

Oh, and I brought up the concept of beshert and emunah because *you* said that there would be hundreds of neshamos never born without NASI. I just said that if you had emunah, you would know that Hashem runs the world and no matter what we do, if those neshamos were meant to be born, they will be born.

JS said...

Sam,

Your screwy logic is the same nonsense that leads people running to segulahs.

Sam's logic: Even if NASI is a scam and 1 family loses money, it's worthwhile because other people got married.

The problem with the logic is that people get married whether or not the NASI idea works. It's like saying "If you don't give me $100 something terrible will happen to you!" - something terrible may happen to you regardless! Even moreso, the chances are if I tell this to enough people something terrible WILL happen to at least 1 person. Does that mean I have some special powers? Of course not.

The NASI program is basically the same thing. You get 100 girls to sign up at least a handful will get married. But, if you looked at 100 girls who didn't sign up, at least a handful of those will get married too. It doesn't mean NASI works. Just like it doesn't mean I have special powers if something terrible happens to you because you didn't give me $100.

This is why we have the field of statistics - so we can ACTUALLY verify whether something workd or not.

It's especially important here because people are being asked to pay REAL substantial amounts of money. It's not like some segulah where you say a kapittel of tehilim or whatever.

If everyone who wants their money back would actually get it back, no harm no foul perhaps. But, even you acknowledge some may lose their money.

How you can possibly think it's okay to steal from one person to benefit others is beyond me. I didn't realize Judaism held Robin Hood in such esteem.

Ariella said...

Sam, you hardly qualify as the spokesman for "all sane people." That was a highly offensive ad hominem attack on Tesyaa who actually raises a very valid point.
Yehi mamon chavercha chaviv alecha keshelach. It's not a Torah-based attitude to say others have to sink money into a scheme that may yield results, but probably won't. After all, if the bashert for the girls is out there, he can be found by people who are willing to pair the couple up without an upfront bribe of $13K. Should the ones who have access to the eligible singles be willing to do their part to bring the neshamos to the world, as you put it?
Why does a problem of people not taking action get converted into a problem of people not spending money? Obviously, because when money changes hands, someone benefits financially.

But the problem of shidduchim is not based on how much one is willing to pony up but on people not willing to get involved in setting up people they consider less than ideal shidduch material. That is what is at the heart of the matter.

rosie said...

It may not be that the girl is less than ideal shidduch material. My early 30's married sons have few friends that are still single and those who are, have some issue that is keeping them single. Even my 24yr old married son does not have many single friends left. Therefore, a woman would be better off with a BT who is single because he came from a life where single at 30 is not unusual, or a man who has been previously married.
Some things that keep women single was the thing I mentioned in another thread; that of waiting behind a slow moving older sister, inability of the parents to support a kollel life, and a feeling of failure regarding marriage to a working man. I also see some older singles who are afraid of marriage and even break engagements. No one can say that lack of communal involvement has caused them to feel that fear.
As in all areas where community consciousness must be raised, we have to remind the frum public that when we see a single person, we should at least attempt to think of someone for that person and if we know anyone, then try to set them up.

JS said...

rosie,

A young woman is not allowed to date if her older sister is still unmarried? I had never heard this before. How is it imposed exactly and on what basis? The shadchan refuses to set the girl up? The parents won't allow her to date?

What's the sense in the rule?

psychobabbler said...

JS- In many Yeshivish circles (and some less yeshivish), dating goes "in age order". Ok, children of different genders have a different list... boys must wait for their brothers to be married and girls- their sisters. Some actually say that the younger sister must ask permission from their older sister to begin dating. This means the family will not hear any possible matches for that younger child. He/she isn't "on the market" yet. (hate that phrase, sounds like cows at auction).
Yes, if the older sibling is "old", many "olders" will allow their sister to bypass them.

Some of the "sense" is to help the older sibling.
--they are, in a sense, rushed. they can't turn down any decent suggestions (and may go out on more dates).
-- It is very hurtful to the older sibling if their younger sister is married (I use the female because that is where it is more commonly done). She might feel "what is wrong with me" when it is just a matter of not finding anyone yet.
-- It can hurt the shidduchim of the older one. Especially since it is not done, if the younger one is married first everyone assumes "what is wrong with the older one"?

Just some of my thoughts on the subject. I know of many families who have all the kids "wait in line" and these are some of the reasons given to me...

JS said...

I just can't fathom this degree of parental control over adult children. I feel like I'm reading about some tribe or society across the globe or that existed centuries ago.

Are parents still changing diapers for these children too?

rosie said...

JS, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Lavan, in the Torah made Yaacov marry Leah first so from there we learn that sisters should marry in order of age. We do it as a sign of respect but often we create agunot of a different kind.
If the younger sister met a boy and wanted to get married before the older, and the older objected, the younger one would have to marry possibly without family support.

Mergatroid said...

Rosie, are you seriously suggesting that we learn proper behavior and social mores from Lavan?

Anon1 said...

Anyone who pushes a wacko scheme at us tries to make us feel ultra-guilty for questioning or rejecting it. We're the adults!

Bob Miller said...

This would be an interesting exercise:

Make a numbered list of all the current "rules" of the shidduch process.

Next to each rule, put the year and location of the rule's first known use.

I bet we'd see a lot of recent innovation in rule-making and not so much real tradition.

rosie said...

mergatroid,
We don't want to be less frum than Lavan so we follow his example in this matter.

Ariella said...

@Bob Miller you're right. I wrote about the shidduch resume now considered a "must" that was completely unheard of before this century. My analysis of it is at http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=166926033774&topic=15820

Unfortunately, some people just assume the article is a how-to rather than a critique. I've even been asked for pointers on what to include in shidduch resumes.

Anonymous said...

The underlying goal of some new shidduch practices appears to be:

Maximize the return to providers of associated goods and services.

Minimize individual initiative and choice (since the individual, even after years of education in the system, is assumed to be too immature or clueless to be trusted).

Anonymous said...

JS - why so condescending? Different strokes for different folks and live and let live...They aren't asking you to support them...