A light post for now. . . . .
Over at Kallah Magazine, Ariella points to a list of dating tips for females posted at Saw You at Sinai that hits Yahoo news. Guess we are an interesting bunch! One of the tips jumped out at me because a long while back, when I once offered to pay for my own coffee, it was. .. . uh. .. not well received.
Offering to pay for part of the date, even if the man has no intention of letting the woman pay, is still acknowledged and appreciated nonetheless.
I'd be curious to hear from my readers of all ages what they think of the girl/young lady/woman offering to pay for all or part of the date. Is there really a consensus on the issue in the same way the advice to say "thank you" is given? Is this a generational thing and us old fogies should get on board rather than giving "outdated" advice like some of us might have received from our parents?
On a much less light note. . . . Kallah Magazine also reports that the market rate for shadchanus is $2,000! Cheaper than NASI's price inflation (any news on the NASI front?), but pretty pricey nonetheless. . . .especially if the chatan/kallah hasn't yet launched.
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My husband of 11 years says he was a bit confused or even miffed that I didn't offer to pay on the first date. Guess he got over it.(To be fair, whenever I'd offered to pay previously it was always dismissed, so I just got tired of doing that charade again, only to be rejected.)
The problem is balancing such an offer between sincerity and formality. Offering to pay and being really sincere might be insulting as it implies the guy doesn't have the funds to cover the night. Going through the motions, on the other hand, is insulting since it lacks any sincerity at all.
As a woman, i don't like men to pay for me. I always pay for myself. It feels strange to me that in the US, it is expected of the man to pay for everything on a date.
A friend of mine shares my feelings, but she tells me it is offensive not to let the man pay, so she always takes just a drink or the cheapest dish possible if the man insists she eats.
I always appreciated the offer (and it was rare). But I never accepted the offer and always paid for everything myself.
It's a trap.
I know guys who - thinking they were being agreeable - accepted a woman's offer to pay. They didn't get second dates.
The bottom line is: men who take their money is a terrible turn-off to women.
I was once on a first date with a girl who had been a friend of mine beforehand. She had told me in past conversations that she always feels uncomfortable having the guy pay for her, and she just wants to pay for herself for once, but she's also not comfortable making the offer. So in a moment of being ironically gallant, I offered her the opportunity to pay for herself for a change. She gladly accepted, and - with incredible excitement - paid for her own dinner. Again, on a first date.
She got the opportunity to not feel like she's not incapable of buying her own dinner, and I got to see that she's down-to-earth and wants to be wooed not by standard chivalry but by genuine affection, caring, kindness, and generally being a good person.
Some of you might consider me ridiculous. But say what you will, we're engaged.
Mazel tov
I've heard young women say that they just don't eat on dates. I don't know if that's an eating disorder thing or a recognition that their yeshiva bochur dates don't have any money. By not eating anything they allow the boy to save face without going broke. But what an unpleasant evening! I'm glad that wasn't the usual custom back when I was dating, or maybe I was just oblivious. I did sometimes offer to pay, but I was once told it was offensive.
@Sephardi Lady, thanks for the link
@ClooJoo The young lady who offers to pay but then dumps the guy who accepts may be over gnevas da'as. He's taking her offer as sincere, and she's turning it into some kind of test. That's not being a mensch, which is my shorthand rule for dating.
I have heard of far more destructive "testing" than offering a meal and it is a sad commentary on the pressure of shidduch dating for daters feel the need to design such tests. Something is wrong when an approach forces what at least borders on tempting people to engage in the distasteful.
I actually did pay for one of the last dates with my husband. At that point we both agreed it wasn't much longer until his money was our money and my money was our money, so offering and paying wasn't comparable to offering on a first or second date.
Ariella, call it what you will, that's the psychology.
Girls say they're looking for a "nice guy" but then it turns out that the "nice guys" aren't "exciting enough."
btw, lest you think this is sour grapes - I am married, thank God. I get a lot of this info from single friends (plus some of my own experiences, long ago).
I once went on a date where I paid for everything and the girl did all the driving. That was one of my best dates, because I hate driving.
The vapidity of this subject beggars the imagination. And I have much imagination. Back to Churchill's memoirs. The company of a first rate mind is always edifying. I don't find it here.
Miss Clavell
The Infamous
I paid for everything and did it happily, even if the date was not successful.
My current wife let me pay, but I remember she bought me a danish and a drink when I picked her up once. And it was appreciated.
Money is about power and it is very important to equalize the power relationship at the beginning of the dating process. I never went out on a second date with someone who refused my offer to share the costs of a first date.
Modesty
I am with Commenter Abbi. I'm single, 33, frum, and therefore have been on a huge number of first dates. I always offered to pay. I think one man let me pay for the entire first date. It didn't turn me off to him. Sometimes, men let me pay for myself but not for them, which is just weird.
After a first date, I really, really like to take turns paying and planning dates. So I plan cheap dates (because I am poor), and enjoy going on cheap dates (walks in the park, picnics, maybe a movie if I'm feeling extravagant, browsing in used bookstores), and if a guy with money wants to plan a fancier date and pay, I don't object.
I heard that women say that they just want "someone nice" and then complain that someone isn't interesting/exciting enough. So I'll just say it: I want someone who is really, really nice and really interesting. By interesting, I don't mean wealthy (employed is good, though, or with plans for future employment) or fancy. I mean, able to carry on a conversation that is interesting, has interests, does stuff, etc. I am kind of boring/introverted myself, so I don't do a lot of "stuff" and am okay if a guy's interests are taking walks in the park and reading the newspaper. But he has to have SOMETHING going for him in addition to being nice.
(Anyone got someone for me? I'm 33, never married, left-wing-Orthodox or halakhically-observant egalitarian, politically liberal, smart but not snotty or pretentious, NYC-based, love learning Torah and very involved in Jewish communal life. Looking for the same-ish. Been dating for ten years and have been in a bunch of several-months-long relationships, but apparently not the right one yet. Don't love NYC and willing to move.)
Oh! I meant to say that I'm with Commenter Abbi in terms of "(To be fair, whenever I'd offered to pay previously it was always dismissed, so I just got tired of doing that charade again, only to be rejected.)"
I, too, got tired of offering to pay and being rejected. Especially when I'm on a first date at a coffee shop, and the entire bill for both of us is under $10, I very sincerely say, "Thank you so much for the coffee." (I once had a coupon for a place and used that to make my drink cheaper, but after I had done so, the guy said, seriously, that he felt that the $2 cup of whatever was a lot of money for him to spend on a date. Or maybe he was kidding, but not well?)
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